 June 12, 2009 - 6:48am | Other than for the fact that most of us were totally enamored by Skywalker taking his Xwing up against the Death Star and lets face it, the idea of 1 man and his trusty steed is a very romantic one; Wouldn't it actually be better to have a crew for a fighter? First, one admission: I'm a total David Weber fan and have been strongly influence by his books- originally his LACs were incredibly short legged system only craft not carrying enough fuel bunkerage to be anything but a target in a full up fleet battle but over the course of the series technical developments changed that leading to a "fighter' revolution much like what occurred on earth at the dawn of naval air power. However, his LACs are manned by a small crew. and I was thinking that SF fighters, if they were designed along these lines would get better performance, having a dedicated pilot, gunner, and engineer all rolling on their own personal skills. Despite the length of the KH game turn the standard pilot kind of reminds me of "bionic Nazis" (many war-game rules made the Germans so capable that someone coined the phrase "bionic Nazis") he'd really need to be super human to do all those things effectively and funny thing the game lets him! a LAC design doesn't need to be a full up deck plan as the crew would not really be moving around much- only having head, a coffee dispenser and maybe a fold down bunk for long missions. The minimum life support requirements covers 3 individuals. since they're a parasite warship they'd always have a carrier or station near enough that it wouldn't be an issue for a crew to be crammed into a very tight space for a patrol or mission. The only thing I can see in favor of the 1 fighter 1 crew paradigm is its cool. (though I think we should enforce the use of R2D2 type robots to handle engineering duties). Including a LAC paradigm into existing SF games doesn't even have to disrupt the established flow as it could be introduced as: 1. just a new design being tried out 2. the design philosophy of an alternate race. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 June 12, 2009 - 10:50am | A hull size 2 ship. Basically a bomber or LAC type ship with a all the fix'ins. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
 June 12, 2009 - 11:13am | Yeah, rock on - build a HS 2 size craft... Maybe call it a "Tactical Bomber" or something to contrast with the HS 1 Fighter... Design it up! |
 June 12, 2009 - 6:58pm | Shadow Shack already beat you to it, at least one version. Check out the I-76 Enforcer at his Dominion game. At that link it is the second ship (the MES Sentinel). I'm sure he's posted data on it other places as well. In this case it is a jump capable fighter with a crew of two. I'd be cool to see other designs as well. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 June 13, 2009 - 6:14am | The fighters in my game can be manned by one or two crew, with the back seater serving as a gunnery assistant to improve the pilot's chance of hitting. Optimally said back seater might possess some engineering skill too. On my heavy fighters (HS:2) a crew of two is the norm, with at least one of them possessing either an engineering skill to better effect repairs or astrogation for void hopping. The aforementioned I-76 Enforcer for example, has forward firing weaponry along with a turret weapon, a gun for each crew member. In addition to that is a maintenance robot compartment aft of the cockpit for an engineer to coordinate repair work, along with reclining command chairs and an accessway between the cockpit and robot/maintenance bay with a mini-galley and fresher for the more lengthy missions. And for those that haven't caught it, that I-76 is loosely based on the Y-Wing... Head on over to the Volturnus Revisited project and check out my SF:2KH work in progress in the document section, the Eorna heavy fighter there is a 3-4 person craft with provisions for a pilot, turret gunner, engineer, and an optional rocket gunner to assist with the forward firing rocket system. Granted it wouldn't take much to turn that from an in-system fighter to an interstellar capable craft, add some astrogation skill to one of the gunners and it's all ready for anything you can throw at it. The big issue with HS:2 fighter craft is you run out of interior space real quickly. Forget about staterooms and comfort, the crew had better be capable of getting along with each other! |
June 13, 2009 - 6:41am | I would maintain that civilian hulls would follow the more traditional KH deck plan and fulfilling purposes like yatch or courier. while a military designed HS2 could go either that way or toward a everything centered around its purpose and screw creature comforts "cause your in the navy now Boyo and this 'ere a fighter craft not some filpin pleasure shuttle!" So I'd picture a HS2 fighter craft as what I've seen on Air Force Craft- a cramped looking flight deck and everything else is about fulfilling the craft's mission. I suspect that most militias in the frontier don't really bother much with astrogators as their craft will be largely busy with anti-piracy patrols, cargo inspections, and rescue of stranded merchants or pleasure craft personnel. it would be only in times of war with the sathar that they could be called on for extended duty outside their systems. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 15, 2009 - 6:38pm | Just a note on scale I thought I'd throw out, NASA's Space Shuttle is HS 2 in the KH rules. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
June 15, 2009 - 8:04pm | Just a note on scale I thought I'd throw out, NASA's Space Shuttle is HS 2 in the KH rules. I was wondering about that but I was being to lazy to go by this site and check: http://www.merzo.net/ REFF: the x10 tab for the jumbo jet& F14 I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 15, 2009 - 9:23pm | I was wondering about that but I was being to lazy to go by this site and check: http://www.merzo.net/ REFF: the x10 tab for the jumbo jet& F14 Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
June 17, 2009 - 3:01pm | A HS2 ship would be that big? I always thought the shuttle would be more of what a HS3 ship would be. My sense of scale is so out of wack. Of course when you look at deck plans people draw up I realize they have too much unneccissary space inside the ship, things should be cramped like the inside of a submarine. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
June 18, 2009 - 6:23pm | A HS2 ship would be that big? I always thought the shuttle would be more of what a HS3 ship would be. My sense of scale is so out of wack. Of course when you look at deck plans people draw up I realize they have too much unneccissary space inside the ship, things should be cramped like the inside of a submarine. Yep, the Space Shuttle is just over 30m long (somewhere around 35) and about 6-7 m in diameter. I think it really is about HS 2.3 or so but fits within the +/- 25% rule. For a cramped HS2 space ship check out this ship I made, the TSSS Dart for my on-line campaign. It is a HS 2 ship and very cramped. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
June 23, 2009 - 3:38pm | Yes, that is rather cramped. Makes me think a HS2 would be the ideal size for a general use shuttle. The only time you're going to need a HS3 shuttle or bigger is if you're trying to land a lot of troops and equipment on the ground. On average most ships will only need a HS2. Now to figure how to fit at least 1 of them on all my HS5 frigate designs. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
 June 25, 2009 - 4:28am | Now to figure how to fit at least 1 of them on all my HS5 frigate designs. Have a recessed area that it docks into piggyback style. It locks into that area and has an access port that is enclosed. Maybe some kind of temporary shelter can be put over it during major repairs if it cant get to a dock. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 June 28, 2009 - 1:05pm | My two centicreds: According to the Atomic Rocket website, there really will be a need for only one class of combat starship to handle all missions, sort of like armies each concentrating on a single main-battle tank design, as opposed to the welter of light, medium and heavy tanks of the WWII era. Possibly, this "main-battle starship" with have a median tonnage(10,000 tons sounds about right), an impressive main battery(which can be fixed in train, since the ship can slew about on its maneuvering thrusters to turn the guns, ala B5's Star Furies, or the Swedish Bofors MBT), and an equally impressive array of armed, reusable combat drones to take the place of missiles, something like 2300AD, or along the lines of where many military thinkers believe future battlefield tech is going. Now, the LAC concept(or the PFs from the Kris Longknife books, or the cruisers from Weber and Ringo's McClintock series) also has merit, as opposed to the single-place snub fighter from the movies(even tho they have an atavistic knights in shining armor sort of appeal for many people). Or, even something such as a militarized Thruster-class ship, with an LC somehow shoehorned in with a trio of assault rockets, Shadow's deflector screen concept, and a pair of A engines to power the thing. Accomodations will be cramped and extremely Spartan, with a broom closet bridge, a crowded gunnery deck, an equally crowded engine room, an afterthought of a galley(soemthing similar to those found on B-52s and/or AC-130s comes to mind)a single head and sonic shower, and the crew left to string up hammocks in whatever spare space they can find(similar to WWII subs and the Climbers from Glen Cook's novel A Passage At Arms ). A carrier/mobile repair shop can be built on a size 12-14 hull to accomodate six of these craft, the ship serving as a mobile command center/AWACS platform, as well as providing full medical, maintenance, repair, refuelling and resupply facilities(mess facilities as well, for those tired of living on drink bulbs and MREs). "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
June 28, 2009 - 10:48pm | It seems to me that if a carrier is suppose to be a force multiplier than it should be able to carry more than 6 attack craft unless were limiting them due to game balance or some other artificial reason. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 29, 2009 - 2:22pm | It seems to me that if a carrier is suppose to be a force multiplier than it should be able to carry more than 6 attack craft unless were limiting them due to game balance or some other artificial reason. The idea I have is for the carrier ship to be a ferry and support vessel, hanging well back from the actual combat, while providing for, in addition to what I suggested in the post above, a means to extend the jump range of the parasite craft. Or, alternatively, the base ship would wait at a predetermined point in interstellar space, while the LACs boost to Void speed, jump into the target system, fight the engagement, then rejoin their base ship once the fighting's done. Six parasite craft, tho, was a conservative estimate...no reason why it couldn't have at least twelve, maybe even more, depending on whether they're docked externally or carried in an internal hangar(or series of hangars). "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
June 30, 2009 - 2:52am | It seems to me that if a carrier is suppose to be a force multiplier than it should be able to carry more than 6 attack craft unless were limiting them due to game balance or some other artificial reason. Sadly even the craft description is conservative on the number of fighter craft a carrier may transport, stating that "the largest can carry 12 or more". I figure a carrier may support one HS worth of fighter craft per hull size rating, i.e. a HS:12 craft could contain 12 fighters or six HS:2 heavy fighters. Bays could be designed large enough to accomodate one heavy fighter, or easily swap in two standard HS:1 fighters instead. This would allow for combinations of craft as well...that HS:12 carrier could simultaneously support a squadron of six standard fighters and a trio of heavies. This 1-for-1 ideal allows for a smaller carrier design, such as an escort carrier (HS:10, can carry five heavies or ten regulars) and one I dubbed as a Scout Carrier (HS:6, carries six standard fighters) with exceptional performance in order to drop a squadron off in a hurry and jet back in for recovery before any larger craft can acquire the carrier. |
July 1, 2009 - 8:04am | @ shadow your numbers and reasoning seems reasonable to me though I can see a call for a HS20 carrier with 40 small fighters or 20 heavies! in fact I have a resin miniature of the old school BSG that a friend picked up for me at last years Historicon that is close in size to the UPF battle ship. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
July 10, 2009 - 7:24pm | If you look at the volume of the ships, as you get to bigger hull sizes, you should really be able to handle much more than even Shadow suggests. A HS 20 ship is 150,000 times the size of a HS 1 ship. and is something like 100 times bigger (I don't have the numbers handy) than a HS 10 vessel. That means a HS 10 vessel is still 1500 times bigger than a HS 1 ship and could easily carry a lot of fighters. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
July 11, 2009 - 4:34am | Realistically, a ship would need to dedicate at least 60 cubic meters of interior space per fighter. That would permit a bay, retractable elevator for launch and recovery, and space for the "ground crew" (or more appropriately, the deck crew) to operate. Bays would be further interlinked to permit access to a magazine for assault rocket storage as well as a parts storage bay and equipment storage (computer diagnostic equipment etc). The magazine would take up the most space, permiting so many 10 cubic meter assault rockets per fighter (ideally you would want at least three reloads per craft, so that's 90 cubic meters per fighter for three reloads of three each). So...for one deck to be committed to a six unit squadron, you would need six individual 60+ cubic meter bays and a magazine totalling no less than 540 cubic meters, along with storage space for spare parts and diagnostic equipment (let's just say 30 cubic meters per fighter or 180 total). That comes to 1020 cubic meters for a six unit squadron, not counting cabins for the pilots and their respective deck crews (which I would say consists of one low-level engineer, one computer specialist, and at least two technicians per fighter. Also throw in a roboticist for any maintenance robots dedicated to fighter craft, although one roboticist could oversee sufficient bots for a six unit squadron). The smallest assault carriers according to KH is HS:14, which comes out to over 1,000,000 cubic meters. That's one tenth of one percent of the craft's total volume dedicated to the squadron...let's face it a HS:5 craft would be able to utilize that amount of space and still have pleny left over for other functions. |
