 May 26, 2009 - 7:19am | I guess I've been thinking about this alot lately, cause you always think, "Boy, wouldn't it be great if the road blocks to SF being in print and having the full support of a viable non head up the butt company behind it." I was laying in bed contemplating getting up when it hit me.: The single biggest thing I'd love to see, if anyone ever managed to buy the SF product from WOTC or if they said hey lets see if we can't squeeze this dusty old game for a few dollars more is: Miniatures!!!!!! I'd love it to see a decent miniatures company licensed to produce SF aliens sculpted by someone like Garrity or Olley! I'd totally pre order some sight unseen! [insert Homer Simpsons voice]: "Miniaturessss...aaahahggaah.." [followed by drool rolling down the chin] What if some one bought and put back into production SF? 1. The Zine might get ordered to discontinue its activities. 2. We'd all get relegated to spectator/consumer status... "Here's the SF Beta Dawn rules and you have to buy them as none of the new content is compatible with out them." 3. SF might well and truly get killed as the product gets pushed out that lacks play testing and is all about current WOTC business models... Of course if a company was producing "Beta Dawn" rules and new material it could mean: 1. new blood from new players who know nothing of AD and ZEBs 2. New content that none of us had a hand in producing and therefore slightly more exciting as you dont really know whats coming. 3. Immense gratification that while other Sci-Fi RPGs have floundered the one we believe in an love has resurrected from the grave (so to speak) like a second coming of fun and awesome gaming experience! 4. NEW MINIATURES!!!!!!!!! 5. Movie? 6. New Content So sum it up if anyone bought and tried to do something with SF we'd very likely lose imput over it but there is potentially more good things that could come out of it. So in light of the history of the RPG industry do we have faith that a company looking to recover the cost of their investment plus make a buck will do the right thing with the SF IP? I think it would take a Gary Gygax to make it happen: someone who would stand on the principle of: produce high quality rule books and then churn out tons of adventure material. Most companies/products have some episode in their history where they angered their customer base: D&D, Steve Jackson, GDW, Games Workshop, would a mismanaged or slightly mishandled SF product totally blow us out of the water? I'm not sure I can answer my own question but man would I just die for new SF miniatures in a blister pack packaging; I'd be afraid to open the blister pack lest it prove to be dream.... Oh well I can dream..... What is your dream/fear concerning this? EDIT: A 30th Aniversary Volturnus trillogy module nicely packaged with new art and maps. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 26, 2009 - 8:49am | I doubt you will see SF minis while the Star Wars set are running. If I understand the situation correctly, Lucas frowns upon anything being produced by a company that might compete with the licensed IP of Star Wars. My personal hope is that the Star Frontiers game be sold off as useless, to a company that can really put it out... a company such as White Wolf or Green Ronin... but I would hope they had the wisdom to put out the game (or revised edition), and not simply convert material to their own systems (which would defeat the whole idea). <insert witty comment here> |
 May 26, 2009 - 9:37am | SmootRK is 100% correct - with one twist. I would like SF to be bought by a horribly lame company, which then goes out of business so I can buy it. I would not hesitate to pull every string I have to put together the necessary financing for such an endeavor. I have a business plan already in my mind. It would just be a matter of putting it to paper. New miniatures would be kind of step 2 in the plan. Step 1 is very simple: modules and conventions. Lay out some guidelines and get everyone writing again. Come out with 20 or so high quality modules, sold at a reasonable price, with cardboard maps and such so that the people can't really download the material. Attack any web based .pdfs of our material. Hitting the conventions is vital. A strong presence is required at every single one that has more than 100 gamers at it. Give away 1000s of free t-shirts and other con crap. Tighten up some things with the rules and such but most of that has already been done here. Once the fan base re-establishes, and some money starts to flow, then you pour those profits into investments into miniatures. Have to be careful here as often minis lose money. |
 May 26, 2009 - 12:23pm | But say all this does happen, how would you deal with some SF races are now in Future d20 source books? That's a pretty big hill to get around, you'd either have to buy the right to them or replace them with new aliens. Wouldn't you? In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
May 26, 2009 - 12:29pm | probably any sale would simply have a provision that allows the continued use of material derived from d20 treatments... but I would imagine they would discontinue to use a race that might lead folks to another company's game system. <insert witty comment here> |
May 26, 2009 - 1:29pm | I generally think that minis should be made by people who make minis- It's kind of like doing brain surgery when your training is in plumbing- huge learning curve to overcome- maybe not the best analogy but... Licensing an established company even with gernerous terms lets them worry about producing the minis product and they already know the that bizz so they should do well. So what if someone else makes money off the minis- gamers buying minis are buying modules. A company like Reaper with its new chronoscope line might jump on this sort of thing as they do massive business catering to RPG players and the chrono line is aimed at multi genre steam punk, horror, sci fi gamers so this would make a nice addition for them and draw attention to SF with the legion of loyal fans. One one problem with this idea is that SF minis would get swallowed up by the larger line. None the less an already successful company would be the way to go. I was surprised by IMPlords idea to go straight to the modules and not to the rules treatments. but the digitally remaster rules and even SF2000 stuff is out there and you can still pick up AD on ebay so why not go for the thing that really draws players. Really, who care when they hear company X is producing all new rules for game system/ genre Z? Because unless you are a total freaking hard core fan you're thinking about how much is that going to be to get into it? I'm a pretty big fan of Middle Earth (I own a ton of ICE's OOP Middle Earth RPG modules with some duplicates still shrink wrapped and what I dont own I very likely have an PDF copy of) but despite that I never dropped one red cent on any of Games Worshop's ME the tactical game. Just didn't do it. but if you went all AD&D on the gaming market with killer modules like Gygax did well you get a lot of excitement cause you'd overcome a major hurtle to new customers they can (in theory) get in for free- I just buy this module and down load ALL the rules for free? Wait I think I still have that funny pink box with the rules in my basement or attic. I'd add one more thing to IMps idea: include a section of city map on the back of the module map doesn't even have to have anything to do with the adventure though it could- more modules you buy the more city sections/blocks you have. Collect them all! I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 26, 2009 - 2:31pm | I doubt you will see SF minis while the Star Wars set are running. If I understand the situation correctly, Lucas frowns upon anything being produced by a company that might compete with the licensed IP of Star Wars. My personal hope is that the Star Frontiers game be sold off as useless, to a company that can really put it out... a company such as White Wolf or Green Ronin... but I would hope they had the wisdom to put out the game (or revised edition), and not simply convert material to their own systems (which would defeat the whole idea). Both companies would...GR's too vested in True20 and Pale Puppy is bound up with its idiot RPG rules. Sides, who the hell wants to see Garou and Malkavians alongside the Core Four? "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
May 26, 2009 - 2:41pm | SmootRK is 100% correct - with one twist. I would like SF to be bought by a horribly lame company, which then goes out of business so I can buy it. I would not hesitate to pull every string I have to put together the necessary financing for such an endeavor. I have a business plan already in my mind. It would just be a matter of putting it to paper. New miniatures would be kind of step 2 in the plan. Step 1 is very simple: modules and conventions. Lay out some guidelines and get everyone writing again. Come out with 20 or so high quality modules, sold at a reasonable price, with cardboard maps and such so that the people can't really download the material. Attack any web based .pdfs of our material. Hitting the conventions is vital. A strong presence is required at every single one that has more than 100 gamers at it. Give away 1000s of free t-shirts and other con crap. Tighten up some things with the rules and such but most of that has already been done here. Once the fan base re-establishes, and some money starts to flow, then you pour those profits into investments into miniatures. Have to be careful here as often minis lose money. I agree with every point except only hitting the cons with more than 100 people...have to hit up some of the mini-cons as well, as you will find a great many gamers who frequent these events but don't have the time, desire, or cash to show up at (say) DragonCon. Also, I'd hit up as many of the local comic stores and Books A Million outlets(or, in my case, Hastings and Vintage Stock) as I can, do meets and greets with people who are kinda interested in science-fiction, but would a)never have thought a whole wide world of fandom was out there(and who wouldn't want to be lumped in with the fandom, out of fear of having to wear pajamas and rubber ears), b)who are kind of interested in role-playing but just need a little push, and c) simply need to be pried away from those damn Yu-Gi-Oh cards, XBox360, WiiTodds and all those other banes of Western Civilization as we know it. As much as I despise Pale Puppy, that was part of their marketing strategy when Werewolf, et al, first came out. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
May 26, 2009 - 2:45pm | But say all this does happen, how would you deal with some SF races are now in Future d20 source books? That's a pretty big hill to get around, you'd either have to buy the right to them or replace them with new aliens. Wouldn't you? Depends on how far you expand the setting in the core rules. If you stick with just the Frontier Sector, then, no, what the orignial rules, the modules, DRAGON and the Frontiersman all came up with should suffice. If you plan to add other sectors or(as some SF gamers have already done)include Earth, yes, you would need more aliens. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
May 26, 2009 - 2:58pm | I generally think that minis should be made by people who make minis- It's kind of like doing brain surgery when your training is in plumbing- huge learning curve to overcome- maybe not the best analogy but... Licensing an established company even with gernerous terms lets them worry about producing the minis product and they already know the that bizz so they should do well. So what if someone else makes money off the minis- gamers buying minis are buying modules. A company like Reaper with its new chronoscope line might jump on this sort of thing as they do massive business catering to RPG players and the chrono line is aimed at multi genre steam punk, horror, sci fi gamers so this would make a nice addition for them and draw attention to SF with the legion of loyal fans. One one problem with this idea is that SF minis would get swallowed up by the larger line. None the less an already successful company would be the way to go. I was surprised by IMPlords idea to go straight to the modules and not to the rules treatments. but the digitally remaster rules and even SF2000 stuff is out there and you can still pick up AD on ebay so why not go for the thing that really draws players. Really, who care when they hear company X is producing all new rules for game system/ genre Z? Because unless you are a total freaking hard core fan you're thinking about how much is that going to be to get into it? I'm a pretty big fan of Middle Earth (I own a ton of ICE's OOP Middle Earth RPG modules with some duplicates still shrink wrapped and what I dont own I very likely have an PDF copy of) but despite that I never dropped one red cent on any of Games Worshop's ME the tactical game. Just didn't do it. but if you went all AD&D on the gaming market with killer modules like Gygax did well you get a lot of excitement cause you'd overcome a major hurtle to new customers they can (in theory) get in for free- I just buy this module and down load ALL the rules for free? Wait I think I still have that funny pink box with the rules in my basement or attic. I'd add one more thing to IMps idea: include a section of city map on the back of the module map doesn't even have to have anything to do with the adventure though it could- more modules you buy the more city sections/blocks you have. Collect them all! ImpLord's right, the minis should come after there's an established fanbase/cahsflow. But there are going to be people who think the core rules need to be tweaked(and, in the case of AD and KH, merged into one book). Maybe, take the Remastered books, crunch them both together, stick the spaceship skills in one of the three PSAs...and allow for multiple PSAs; Shadow Shack and Bill both have some good ideas there. One could initially flog the core book as a free download to build the fan base willing to buy the proposed high-quality modules and supplements(tho not too many of the latter), then charging a cut rate(say, ten bucks) for the core books after a certain period or number of customers has been reached, then offering the core rules as a free download on Free RPG day, or on the anniversary of the initial release, or whennever cash flow starts to lag. Guardians of Order used this approach for their TriStatdX rules three years back. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 May 26, 2009 - 3:59pm | What about alternate game realities, like Dragon Lance was to AD&D? Specifically, I'm thinking about a Serenity/Firefly game universe, maybe a Stargate universe. It would provide fuel for lots and lots of modules and creation of different weapons and aliens that don't necessarily fit with the core but are cool none the less. Honestly, I'm surprised that there isn't already a Stargate game. It would also be good to find a decent author to write a book or two based on the SF universe. I mean good books like the original dragon lance books, or the first couple of trilogies from RA Salvatore. I'd love to see what Brandon Sanderson could do in a Sci Fi setting. Eventually you'd have to get some online stuff going. Building online gaming halls is what I'm thinking. You could host the module online with the maps in digital format then a group would pay to use the module online. The game master would run it. You could either type or use microphones for teleconferencing. All of the die rolls could be automated or based on a trigger from the players and game master. Random encounters could be really random. For a subsription fee you could maintain a more peristant custom campaign that would maintain intergalactic commerce, economics and governments to add small aspects of realism and allow the gm to focus on core game elements. |
 May 26, 2009 - 6:08pm | Pre-production: decide on a headquarters for the main office, but also have smaller offices (or even "desks") elsewhere. Not everyone has to be in the same place for this to happen, although it's nice to have the main group in one place it's not completely neccessary in today's business age to do so. Step 1: Outsource production to anywhere but China (preferably keep it here in the U.S.) so the modules and minis don't fall apart in a matter of weeks. Step 2: Rewrite Zebs so that it blends better with the core AD/KH rules. Then streamline all of that with the original stuff and make one or two rulebooks total (including a players' manual/equipment guide to separate game mechanics from character mechanics in order to further streamline the rulebook). Step 3: Get a butt load of modules printed, including some trilogy/series types. Expansions to Warriors of White Light, a follow up adventure to Dramune Run, participation in corporate skirmishes, and the one thing KH left out: some Spacefleet adventures. Maybe even throw in a bad guy series (players portraying Star Devil characters or smugglers or such). Step 4: Along with new minis, introduce more fold out maps and counters so players and referees aren't recycling Outpost One everytime they need a compound map. Expansion maps for Port Loren and introduce other major city maps (New Hope in Triad, Point True in Pale, Valentine City in Clarion, etc) as well as some outpost maps (such as Point Glass in Laco). Maze would be asking too much LOL Step 5: get listed under numerous distributors, not just those soliciting to hobby shops but also solicitation to comic book stores, regular book stores, toy stores, and general department stores. I rmember finding D&D and SF just about anywhere and everywhere as a kid. I wouldn't know where to go for today's RPG stuff as I never see it at the places I used to see D&D/SF. Step 6: Hit the cons and expos. This is where having multiple offices/desks comes in handy...you can make more shows this way. A "west coast desk" person could make the medium and small shows in southern California, southern Nevada, Arizona, and Utah while the "main office" can concentrate on the mega shows like GenCon etc |
 May 26, 2009 - 8:02pm | IMHO: Not likely to happen as long as the Star Wars RPG contract is held by WOTC. WOTC acts like they would like to see the old d100 games (Top Secret, Top Secret/SI, Star Frontiers) go away and quietly die. They seem unwilling to sell the rights at any price. When they did PDFs on RPGNow, etc., these games were not included amoung them. If they did sell the rights it is likely that one of the conditions would be that the "new" edition of the game use 4e rules. It just would not be the same.  |
May 26, 2009 - 8:02pm | Wow - awesome ideas! I really like Jedion's idea with the free bit of map included with every module as a bonus that has nothing to do directly with the module. And Shadow's point about wide distribution is very important. In terms of mini-cons - sure, hit as many as you can. Give SF T-shirts to every single player there. But you MUST be at the big ones, and loudly. In terms of the copyrights with D20 Future and all that - it would be rolled into the deal. Whether that deal is with me, or some other buyer, no business person with a brain would accept anything less than total ownership and control of all artwork, logos, characters, liscences, etc. They have boilerplate contracts out there that cover all of that. I would not worry about that. Love the module ideas too. That's really the bottom line here. We would need it all - series, stand-alones, lower level modules, high level modules, Knight Hawks modules, bad guy modules, maybe even basic rules modules to bring in the kiddies for easy indoctrination at a young age. How about a 12 module series about the final defeat of the Sathar? That would be sick-awesome. And NEVER cease writing modules. The initial run can have 20, and then more and more come out. The whole RPG world would be stunned by the sheer amount and quality. Build up a huge reservoir of 40 fully completed modules, release 20, and then amaze the RPG world by releasing another module, ON TIME, every single month or quarter or whatever (I like quarter...) Computer games, console games, and, of course, MOVIES. All of which based on our kick-ass MODULES. Then the money arrives in ridiculous barrels. Online presence, of course, is massively important. How about this - game rooms with the WRITER of the module as a Special Guest Referee in his OWN module! Tell me that would not get the forums buzzing! |
May 27, 2009 - 9:48am | Make an I-phone or kindle app that would allow you to play from anywhere, or if you had a bunch of people together they could hook up via blue tooth and network to play. If there was some way of playing paper RPG's on a Kindle I bet Amazon would slobber all over it and then you would have one of the greatest distribution networks on earth at your fingertips. This forum obviously loves pen and paper RPG's but I'm thinking there is a new paradigm to be found using online tools without going to a video game format. Facebook gamerooms anybody? |
 May 27, 2009 - 4:31pm | Both companies would...GR's too vested in True20 and Pale Puppy is bound up with its idiot RPG rules. Sides, who the hell wants to see Garou and Malkavians alongside the Core Four? ?hand raises? Me? ?/hand raises? I mean, how cool would a malkavian dralasite be? Or a Ventrue Vrusk. My worse fear is a straight reprint, followed closely by adaptation to a system I don't like. Like, for example, Star Wars... I loved D6, but the D20 was BAD. d20 2nd ed was no improvement; I've not seen the saga edition close enough to make a decision.... That was probably the worst thing that could happen besides the prequels. If they go a straight reprint, odds are they are not even going to try to support with new material. Take the recent Traveller revival by Mongoose. Love it or hate it, it's being well supported, it's not a straight reprint, the general system mechanics are obviously "travelleresque", but are evolved a bit to give it grognard-appropriation-potential, and not so far as to make older edition materials hard to use. So I would want to see a new rulebook with 4-6 PSAs (SciSpec, TecExp, Combat, Spacer, Mentallist), more skills per PSA, all the prior races, and modern (no offense to the guys doing the revival) art and design. |
May 28, 2009 - 6:03am | I know that twitter is all the rage right now with even atronuts twittering from space. I have twitted yet, probably for the same reason I didn't bother with face book: Just one more thing coming down the line for me to waste my time with online. Plus the name just suggests a not nice name to me: TWIT! None the less, as I understand twitter, I wonder if a RPG could be played with it? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 28, 2009 - 6:16am | I'm kind of lost on this whole d20 thing. I've played Palladium games which used a d20 for combat resolution and percentile dice for skills. But since WOTC called it's rules d20 every thing seems to have gone this route. The OGL rules allowed for others companies to stat things for it, but after having played DP9's SilCore Silihoutte rules d20 rules just come off as being wimpy rules. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
May 28, 2009 - 5:12pm | It has to do with the D&D name. D&D used the D20 system, and WotC officially allowed others to adopt and/or adapt their system for other genres. Officially, the various adaptations are incomplete, and need a "core book"... the OGL was to be a two way sharing arrangement; WotC forgot that later, and HasBro never grocked that part. I've read that HasBro basically forbade the use of open content from outside sources. From a 3rd party perspective, if you use a D20 license, people know that it's going to work pretty close to D&D, so they only have to learn a few new rules. Really, it was intended to be the new "For use with D&D" indicator, but some (like Green Ronin's True20, QuickLink Interactives' T20: Traveller's Handbook and Mongoose's Babylon 5) are intentionally incompatible... but switching takes only a few explanations of what's different. From a 3rd party perspective, OGL means you don't have to rewrite everything. That which you like can be boilerplated from the SRD, saving a lot of time. (It's already spell checked, for example.) From a D&D player's perspective, D20 means that you don't have to learn a new system, just the tweaks; you can pull stuff into your home game without difficulty... well, mostly. (See also T20...) |
 May 28, 2009 - 7:09pm | None the less, as I understand twitter, I wonder if a RPG could be played with it? However, It might be interesting to see what kind of buzz you could create by hosting a live game out in the open like that if the players had a large number of followers. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
