Damage and pudding

Rum Rogue's picture
Rum Rogue
April 10, 2009 - 3:52am
I have always assumed that the +20 to-hit from a Burst-fire attack was due to using the extra bullets to saturate an area in order to hit the target, what is referred to as spray-and-pray. What if I wanted to try and concentrate that fire to deal more damage to that nasty Sathar attack monster?
Here are a couple of ideas I have had running around in my keg.

Concentrated burst-fire:
<Edit: Remember that a Concentrated burst is fired at one target.>
Option 1: The shooter can choose to increase damage by 1 point for every point of the +20 he sacrifices. Can use no more than those 20 points.

Option 2: No bonus to-hit, increase rolled damage by 50%.

Roll those thought around your mug and let me know what you think.

Later I will pour in a few more ideas about burst fire and shotgun spread patterns.

Edit: Final consensus
Option 3: Concentrated burst-fire will provide no bonus to-hit, but adds 2 dice of damage for auto-pistols and auto-rifles, and adds 4 dice to the heavy machine gun.
Time flies when your having rum.

Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time.

Georgie's picture
November 29, 2010 - 6:34pm
@w00t - Wear and tear on a weapon is more likely to affect accuracy then damage. Except in beam weapons where it could affect one or the other or both. For ballistic weapons, aged ammo could affect damage or worse, you get a "pop and no kick" which lodges a round in the barrel. Ouch.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.    * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi

Rum Rogue's picture
Rum Rogue
November 29, 2010 - 7:04pm
This conversation makes me want to break out all the damage and equipment failure charts from Space Master.
Time flies when your having rum.

Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time.

dmoffett's picture
November 29, 2010 - 8:36pm
Hey Georgie dont forget Eugene Stoner's little gift to the US Military. Less likely to lose accuracy but more likely to misfeed or stovepipe... Good old M-16 and family. we are using M-16A4 and M4A2 Carbine... Same problems as in the 1960s... there are ways to fix it.. but the Army always uses it's most tried and true method...... Ignore the problem and tell the user: "Its not clean enough thats why it jammed on you". No other Semi-auto, Full auto or Burst Firearm in the world needs a forward assist. But the M-16 mechanism is just fine... Bunch of Idiots. Stupid thing should have been retired years ago.
The bombing starts in five minutes.

Will the Stampede's picture
Will the Stampede
November 29, 2010 - 11:24pm
But it won't, even tho the military tested better alternatives(cough, XM8, cough). 

Politics: Kills more soldiers than the enemy.....
" 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death."

AtomikDyce's picture
January 3, 2014 - 7:41am
You guys are probably correct about the long burst not increasing accuracy at range (even short bursts can throw your aim off). It works at close range and in confined areas (spraying a target up close will definitely increase your chances, seeing as how the recoil doesn't throw the arc of fire outside your target area as much). At range, even the slightest angle puts your shot outside of the target. Great points mentioned in this thread.

Maybe we need to rethink the whole burst bonus in the game?

rattraveller's picture
January 3, 2014 - 9:32am
Every weapon has problems and trade offs. Yes the M16 is prone to malfunctions (originally due to poor ammuntion, the Army not wanting to buy the good stuff) and it is difficult to disassemble and clean (I remember well the days of having to clean my M16 three times over three days before it could be turned in to the arms room). BUT it is one of the more accurate weapons produced for regular soldiers. I have gotten bullseyes at 600 meters with an unmodified one.

The AK (47, 74, AKM or any of the family) is the most used weapon in the world. It is easy to maintain and clean (I watched an Opfor group fire and then clean them by spraying BBQ grill cleaner in them). This is the weapon of choice for poor, illiterate armies everywhere. BUT this is one of the most inaccurate weapons ever. It was designed to spray bullets and use in mass formations. Tactics with it are little better than 18th Century musket warfare. Line up alot of soldiers, fire alot of ammo and charge the enemy. Yes there is a sniper version but that is a special modified one.

As with everything you have to figure what is best for your circumstances which include alot of things generally not battlefield related like education of your soldiers, your national budget, what is available, and yes political situations.

BUT how many times have you rolled up your character and thought well the Dralasite has projectile weapons and the Yazirian has gyrojet weapons so I will take lazer weapon so we have everything covered. OR you made sure your fantasy fighter had a sword and a mace for zombies and skeletons?

Unfortunately armies have to pick one thing and stick with it or logistics become a nightmare.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Abub's picture
January 3, 2014 - 12:28pm
So... I just reread the burst rules.

It seems to me that they do EXACTLY what what want already.  The damage increases to 5d10 when targeting a single target, or 5d10 + (n-1) * d10s if hitting multiple targets where the multi target damage is distributed "as evenly as possible".

So the basic rules give bursting fire on a single target +20 to hit and multiplies the dice of damge five fold.  

Bursting sort of helps to equalize the power of lasers in SF a little except for one thing... Auto Pistols and Auto Rifles both carry 20 rounds.  I get that an autopistol here is basically like an Uzi and not a 9mm pistol... but seems like the rifle should get more ammo ot something.  As is, it is only better by having more range.  Well... i suppose it doesn't cost that much more.

Do you have any players use actual handguns like a 9mm?  I assume use the Autopistol values only without burst mode?


AtomikDyce's picture
January 3, 2014 - 12:28pm
I once had a vrusk who fired dual auto-pistols. However, I find the laser weapons to be much more effective in gameplay.

I was just in the process of modifying my supplemental burst rules, hopefully posting them for further discussion. Good insight in this thread as to the effect on accuracy at range when firing a burst. My gears are turning.

Abub's picture
January 3, 2014 - 12:48pm
in real life... miltary rifles tend toward the three round burst instead of the long bursts as mentioned.

In a real firefight that means a Joe using his M16 shoots many times before reloading... but in SF players should be reloading everythree rounds in most situations.  

Googling tells me uzi's have 20-32 rounds depending on the clip, and AK's have 30 in a bananna clip.

So I'm thinking of increasing the ammo capacity of AP's and AR's... well, of All ARs to 30 and some have it as an option for APs.

This would make burst firing more useful (you would get one extra burst).

Another idea that just occured to me... is you could decrease the rounds fired in a burst... but 5 sounds to low and something like 7 isn't a nice number to divide by.  Maybe five isn't all that low?


Abub's picture
January 3, 2014 - 12:54pm
The more I stew on it...

How about this...

Use the burst rules as written except change what is there into a "Long Burst".

Now add following the same mechanics a "Short Burst" which shoots 5 rounds, can still hit five targets but does not get the benifit of the +20% to hit? -- EDIT: maybe make it only able to hit three targets?

You should also consider a "Long Burst" isn't actually a spary-n-pray attack but probably two or three controlled quick bursts just done in the time of the attack... so a series of three or four round bursts all resolved in one die roll.