 April 10, 2009 - 3:52am | I have always assumed that the +20 to-hit from a Burst-fire attack was due to using the extra bullets to saturate an area in order to hit the target, what is referred to as spray-and-pray. What if I wanted to try and concentrate that fire to deal more damage to that nasty Sathar attack monster? Here are a couple of ideas I have had running around in my keg. Concentrated burst-fire: <Edit: Remember that a Concentrated burst is fired at one target.> Option 1: The shooter can choose to increase damage by 1 point for every point of the +20 he sacrifices. Can use no more than those 20 points. Option 2: No bonus to-hit, increase rolled damage by 50%. Roll those thought around your mug and let me know what you think. Later I will pour in a few more ideas about burst fire and shotgun spread patterns. Edit: Final consensus Option 3: Concentrated burst-fire will provide no bonus to-hit, but adds 2 dice of damage for auto-pistols and auto-rifles, and adds 4 dice to the heavy machine gun. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 April 11, 2009 - 4:30am | I'm concerned how this would play out with characters at high level of skill say 5- with a dex of say 65 so that rate of success is 83% allowing for them to mostly ignore the +20 bonus as 80% is such a high chance of success they'll opt for the higher damage everytime. I do like your 2nd option as its simpler to use. KISS. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
April 11, 2009 - 8:32am | I lean more toward the option 2 as well. That inspiration there is from the Space Master rpg. I just cant recall if there was a penalty to hit as well. I included option 1 to see what it actually looked like "on paper." Could do a 2-for-1 instead. That way the maximum damage bonus would only be +10. The point of this is an attempt narrow the gap between projectile weapons and dail-a-welt lasers. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 April 11, 2009 - 5:16pm | Option 2 for sure. Far less math. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 April 11, 2009 - 8:14pm | I would go for option 2 also. Maybe instead of a straight +50% just add a couple more dice to the damage? At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
 April 11, 2009 - 8:26pm | Bursts When a character fires a burst, use the following procedure: 1. The firing character rolls percentile dice to see if the target(s) are hit. The modifiers that apply are: -30 for firing a burst Any expert rules modifiers for cover All modifiers for the firing character's actions All target modifiers 2. If a hit is indicated, divide 10 (the number of bullets fired) by the number of targets in the area. Drop all fractions. The result is the number of bullets that hit each target. 3. Each bullet that hits causes seven points of wounds. If you are using the Hit Locations and Variable Injury rule, roll hit location and injury separately for each bullet. Players should note that these rules make it more difficult to hit targets with a burst, but such hits are more deadly. ________________________________________________ The above rules are from the old TSR game "Gangbusters". If you replace "seven points of wounds" with 1d10, they work well for full auto projectile weapons fire. EDIT: Darn the formatting and full speed ahead! |
April 11, 2009 - 9:11pm | I would go for option 2 also. Maybe instead of a straight +50% just add a couple more dice to the damage? I was going to say no to two extra dice, but that actually works out almost the same as +50%(+/- ten points for the MG/Gauss Rifle burst). "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 12, 2009 - 9:09am | I would go for option 2 also. Maybe instead of a straight +50% just add a couple more dice to the damage? I was going to say no to two extra dice, but that actually works out almost the same as +50%(+/- ten points for the MG/Gauss Rifle burst). Cool. Two extra dice sounds really good. That would be for small arms. How about adding 4 dice to the Heavy MG? Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
April 12, 2009 - 11:12am | Sounds good, Rummie. I'd have to playtest it myself to make sure, but I don't see adding four extra dice of damage for the HMG to be unbalancing. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 12, 2009 - 12:09pm | I like it!!! At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
April 12, 2009 - 7:02pm | Sounds good, Rummie. I'd have to playtest it myself to make sure, but I don't see adding four extra dice of damage for the HMG to be unbalancing. Cool. maybe this is something that we can get into the SFman. Especially with playtest information. I have some ideas for shotgun damage and spread patterns and some ammunition conversions. Should I start a new topic or add onto this one? Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
April 12, 2009 - 9:47pm | Cool. maybe this is something that we can get into the SFman. Especially with playtest information. I have some ideas for shotgun damage and spread patterns and some ammunition conversions. Should I start a new topic or add onto this one? I was planning to add shotguns from the Zine to my Zebulon campaign at the first pirate outpost in SF-1 where one pirate would be packing a sawed off bouble barrel and another would be carrying more of a military style shot gun weapon and that the PCs when searching the out post would find a copy of Play Robot which besides the sexy-ish pics of robots I've pulled from the web would include the info on shotguns by way of a product review. thus making shotguns cannon for my campaign. (I started the campaign with only AD equipment available). So I'd love to hear your ideas on shot guns but maybe a new thread is called for. Do you feel that the write up in the Zine was lacking or that the proposed rules are wildly incorrect? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
April 13, 2009 - 5:02am | So I'd love to hear your ideas on shot guns but maybe a new thread is called for. Do you feel that the write up in the Zine was lacking or that the proposed rules are wildly incorrect? I just have a different view. I like the article, I have some disagreements. Maybe I am just stuck in my ways, but Imagine magazine (#18) had a mini module, On the Rocks, that has shotguns defined for SF. There are aspects in there that I like and don't like as well, but I consider it to be canon. (is that the correct word?) My views will probably include more book keeping and dice rolling than necessary, not to mention overcomplecating two decent versions of shotguns. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
April 13, 2009 - 6:02pm | Talk to Shadow about his shotguns and shotgun rules, Rummie, see if some sort of happy medium can be hashed out. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 13, 2009 - 6:04pm | Cool. maybe this is something that we can get into the SFman. Especially with playtest information. I have some ideas for shotgun damage and spread patterns and some ammunition conversions. Should I start a new topic or add onto this one? I was planning to add shotguns from the Zine to my Zebulon campaign at the first pirate outpost in SF-1 where one pirate would be packing a sawed off bouble barrel and another would be carrying more of a military style shot gun weapon and that the PCs when searching the out post would find a copy of Play Robot which besides the sexy-ish pics of robots I've pulled from the web would include the info on shotguns by way of a product review. thus making shotguns cannon for my campaign. (I started the campaign with only AD equipment available). So I'd love to hear your ideas on shot guns but maybe a new thread is called for. Do you feel that the write up in the Zine was lacking or that the proposed rules are wildly incorrect? Nice idea for introducing gear, jedi. Yeah, Rummie, go head and lay your shotgun rules on us. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 13, 2009 - 9:33pm | Nice idea for introducing gear, jedi. yeah, he has some great ideas!! Yeah, Rummie, go head and lay your shotgun rules on us. Im working on it, its really long, and it is turning into more of a rant than a comparison of two really great ideas with my hash thrown in... it will be a whole nother post Edit: Wow! I have been working on the shotgun post for most of the evening, and it is crazy, I am giong to have to seriously revise what I am trying to say... give me another day please. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
April 13, 2009 - 9:43pm | Talk to Shadow about his shotguns and shotgun rules, Rummie, see if some sort of happy medium can be hashed out. Was it Shadow who wrote the Scattergun article in SFM04? Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 April 13, 2009 - 10:10pm | Talk to Shadow about his shotguns and shotgun rules, Rummie, see if some sort of happy medium can be hashed out. Was it Shadow who wrote the Scattergun article in SFM04? Scatterguns by M. Jason Parent |
 April 13, 2009 - 10:31pm | I like option 1, actually. The idea of being able to balance between more accuracy and more damage seems cool to me. It gives the shooter a degree of "control" which makes sense. There should definitely not be a too hit penalty for a burst unless you compensate with more damage. |
April 14, 2009 - 1:30am | Talk to Shadow about his shotguns and shotgun rules, Rummie, see if some sort of happy medium can be hashed out. Was it Shadow who wrote the Scattergun article in SFM04? Scatterguns by M. Jason Parent Never mind, those weren't Shadow's rules. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 January 1, 2010 - 8:33am | Hey fellas, I've been out of action for quite some time, but I'm planning on jumping back in soon. Anyone who has ever fired a weapon can testify that bursts dramatically increase your chance of scoring a hit on a target (or multiple targets). Here's the system I used back in the day (from what I can recall!): Shooter determines target/targets (individual or crowd, but usually players chose individuals). Targeting modifiers apply. For example, choosing an individual only allows a +20 modifier, but targetting a crowd would get the +20 burst plus an additional +20 for crowds (I think that was the modifier, but I could be wrong). Given that 20 bullets are fired per burst (10 for autopistol/rifle), I would determine how many bullets hit the target(s) with the following forumula: -(Roll - ToHit - 1) / (ToHit / #Bullets) All fractions are rounded up Basically, divide your chance to hit by the # of bullets per burst to acquire a BulletBase, and for every BulletBase number of pct points you roll, reduce the number of bullets by 1. For example: An attacker with a base score of 30 fires a machine gun at a crowd of 5 targets. The attacker's chance to hit is 70 (30 + 20 burst + 20 crowd). He rolls a 45. Quick math would determine that every 3.5 pct points reduces the hits by 1 bullet (70 / 20 = 3.5), and 45 divided by 3.5 equals 12 and some change, so 8 bullets reach their targets (20 - 12 = 8). Since there are more bullets than targets, 3 of the targets receive 2d10 points of damage and 2 receive 1d10. Should the attacker have targetted a single person in the crowd, his chance to hit would have been reduced to 50. Quick math shows that for every 2.5 pct points the number of bullets is reduced by 1 (50/20 = 2.5). So since 45 divided by 2.5 equals 18, 2 bullets hit the intended target (2d10 damage). Of the remaining 18 bullets, I would roll to see if someone in the crowd was hit (using standard crowd rules). Can't recall that rule at the time, but I know it's in there somewhere. Now that I think about it, I would actually increase the burst bonus to +30 (or +40 even) since the damage is determined by the shooter's accuracy rather than a flat hit/miss standard. I also keep the auto-miss rule in place, so that if a projectile specialist targets a lone player at close range, a roll of 96 - 00 results in a fly hitting the shooter in the eye the instant he pulls the trigger, spraying bullets harmlessly in the air. |
January 1, 2010 - 8:34am | In addition to my above comments, something I also wouldn't mind implementing would be the following: Aimed critical shots. Basically allow the shooter to target a critical part of the target (head, heart, cpu casing, etc). This comes with a penalty (varies from -20 to -40 depending on size), but causes double damage (or possibly even triple damage depending on the situation). |
 November 26, 2010 - 11:24am | Anyone who has ever fired a weapon can testify that bursts dramatically increase your chance of scoring a hit on a target (or multiple targets). Here's the system I used back in the day (from what I can recall!): Ummm, NO. Ummm, Wrong Just because there are more bullets in the air means more misses and more wasted bullets. I have been teaching at our Machine Gun Ranges with my unit for a long time; We qualify our Machine gunners every quarter in my unit. So... take it from a subject matter expert..... Long burst Actually decreases your accuracy short controlled burst of 3 to 7 rounds is optimal. Machine guns tend to kick up and to the right due to the twist of the rifleing in the barrel. Machine guns are usually mounted on a bipod or a tripod or a vehicle mount. The US army has 3 general purpose machine guns it uses. light, medium and heavy. The light machine gun is the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon often called the SAW it is a gas recoil operated belt fed little monster 5.56mm that can put out more than 800 rounds per minute.... of course this will burn the barrel and melt it down but that is what is called the cyclic rate of fire its Max "Effective" range is 600 meters, Do the bullets fly further than that? absolutley they do but you are not gonna hit anything unless its an unlucky day for them. Next is the M240B a 7.62mmX51 (around the same as .308 winchester) belt fed gas operated with several gas plug settings allowing a variance on the cyclic rate of fire from 550 rpm to 900 rpm (rounds per minute) Both of these weapons are fired from an open bolt, so when the trigger is squeezed the bolt goes forward loads and fires the round in one swift motion gas recoil sends the bolt backwards and if the trigger is still squeezed the seer will allow the the bolt to go forward again. The speed at witch the bolt goes forward is determined by the the gas port settings allowing gas to escape from the gas piston wich is attached to the bolt. The largest machine gun currently in use is the M2HB .50 cal fires at 500 rpm. THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE AND GATLING GUNS OR CHAIN GUN TYPE WEAPONS OK Machine gus are used to suppress or pin a target down and make them afraid to leave from thier covered position while the rest of the unit maneuvers against the opposition. Do they kill people, yes they do but lets take a look at the qualification table for a second and you can infer what its accuracy is buy what the requirements are. On the Popup course the Crew (thats right machine guns are crew served) must hit 7 out of 26 presented targets to qualify and 11 targets gets you an expert score. We dont use the 10 meter paper range anymore. We use A range with popup targed with man-sized silhouettes from 300 to 900 meters Whats the point of all this.... you dont get a bonus for burst fire unless you are in the same room with your target. At Less than 50 meters I can see getting a bonus to hit because of the short range shear volume of lead in the air. But beyond that I say no not at all. Exception.... Vehicle mounted machine guns can be mounted in such a way as to eliminate the kick and spin from the barrels grooves ie they are pinned down to very heavy mount, like the canon the Abrams main battle tank. The M240 is pinned directly to it. That cannon is damned heavy. The bombing starts in five minutes. |
November 26, 2010 - 4:20pm | Wow. The +20 burst is for starting level characters to "have a chance" at hitting a target. It's based on believable realism for most of the public who has not had a chance to fire theses types of weapons in real life. @jedion, Higher level characters should be able to kick butt. Remember that high-level NPC's can kick the same butt! |
 November 27, 2010 - 8:41pm | Let me second dmoffett's comments. At point blank range, a burst is good. At longer ranges, it mostly wastes bullets unless your whole point is to make your enemy piss themselves. Let me take you back to 1988, Fort Benning Georgia Basic Training center. I'm behind an ol' M60 and shooting at a group of 4 or 5 pop-up silhouettes at roughly 800 meters, a Drill Sergeant sitting on my rump ('cuz he can, that's why). I squeeze off my burst thinking the 60 gunner's mantra "Fire a burst of 6". It's Georgia, hot, and dry so my gun kicks up a bunch of dust from the muzzle blast and down range where the bullets hit, so I can't see diddly. "Did I get'em Drill Sergeant?" I says. "Nope. But you scared the living $#!^ outta them!" And with a pig like the ol' 60 at 800 meters, that's damn fine shootin'! The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
November 27, 2010 - 9:15pm | Ohh I miss the Pig at the same time I hate how tempermental it was. I miss it cuz the 240B is so much heavier. BUt I hated keeping it clean... damn thing would jam up if you were not a clean fanatic.. 240 is so much easier to take care of.. but its got more wieght; 22.7 pounds for the pig versus 27.6 for the 240. After a few clicks of marching you know the difference between the 2... you feel it. The bombing starts in five minutes. |
November 27, 2010 - 9:28pm | Ohh I miss the Pig at the same time I hate how tempermental it was. I miss it cuz the 240B is so much heavier. BUt I hated keeping it clean... damn thing would jam up if you were not a clean fanatic.. 240 is so much easier to take care of.. but its got more wieght; 22.7 pounds for the pig versus 27.6 for the 240. After a few clicks of marching you know the difference between the 2... you feel it. This gives me an idea: there is the AD equipment list then the zebs list- this may be impractical but I'm just thinking out loud- what if selected items form the AD list had quirks like that mentioned about the m60- jamming and being a pain to keep clean but items introduced latter this quirk is not a feature. example the laser pistol from the AD list could be prone to malfunction without finicky care but the descriptions of the lasers in Zebs reclassifies them as Ke this and Ke that so that if a PC has a Ke model he doesn't have to worry about the quirk. this of course has the flavor of an optional rule that each GM introduces at their individual whim. But it will lead to PCs spending money and updated equipment maybe more frequently? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 27, 2010 - 9:38pm | do it Jedi---- watch them player Characters Cringe when the primary solenoid in the laser pistol fails due to Oxidation because it is open to the weather and is inherently flawed and it needs to be cleaned every time it mists or worse... RAIN... LOL. Or maybe its just the one manufacturer like the "Wilks 200 pistol" or something but there may be lots of them in game because they are so cheap. The bombing starts in five minutes. |
November 27, 2010 - 9:47pm | plus it pays homage to the idea that in the early frontier there were lasers but they were expensive and not very common though I like the entry level firearms from issue 1 I think and the blaster- its limited in that its noisy, slow firing and has one damage setting. if that was what was available at first the PCs will jump at the AD laser pistol when it hits the market. only to learn about the oxidation problem I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 27, 2010 - 11:20pm | Equipment Age Table - adjust age, prior owners, value and # of rolls on the Equipment Trouble Table Equipment Trouble Table - a d100 table listing defects (minor, major, greater) Would be a fun project cause I love d100 tables. :-) A simple way of having used gear would be to charge 20-30% less, make it do -1 to -2 points of damage less per 1d10, and might not come with ammunition (or partially exhausted clips). The % cost you discounted the item could be used for a chance of failure during an encounter or adventure. Beware of anything made by Wal-Corp. (awesome jedion) |
November 28, 2010 - 12:00am | a typical thing happens in one of my group's D&D games- they collect every single weapon and etc and haul it back to civilization to sell off or keep and use One of my SF characters in an on line game picked up a formally streel owned laser rifle when he defected from STreell during the Alcazzar mission. IMO a company owned weapon might be in the same shape as a company owned vehicle. poor. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
