 January 22, 2009 - 10:14pm | In the shadow of the Frigate discussion, I decided to give the Destroyer a whirl. Second whirl that is...I uploaded scans of my UPF Destroyer deck plans from high school at http://upfdestroyer.20m.com/ although it is slightly misrepresented as at the time I was under the delusion that "RBx4" meant four single shot rocket batteries and depicted it as such. I'll be revamping that as such, using the basic design from that site but making some appropriate tweaks. Here's a prototype side view/overview I whipped out in paint:  I haven't really fleshed it out much, beyond adding the rocket battery and masking screen launchers in the neck, laser & electron batteries and ICM launchers in the mid section, along with the radar dish, cannon, and torpedo launcher in the fore. I gave it a dual outboard drive set up similar to the die-cast minis from back in the day (my original plans had three drives, the third being stern mounted a la die cast frigate mini) and stuck with the fore shape as well, and merely echoed the frigate's midsection between them. (my old frigate pretty much looked identical minus the neck) |
 January 24, 2009 - 7:58am | I'm having trouble uploading to photobucket so I created a blog with photos on my painting blog here: http://dwarfhammerworkshop.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!27C0AB29C6C5118D!713.entry but anyhow these are some pics of a painted CL from the TSR miniature line if you wish to use them I do believe that the mini only came with 2 engines. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 31, 2009 - 5:51am | Well I got a lot done on my days off...10 of 16 decks fleshed out. Nothing 100% ready for presentation yet but it's really coming along nicely. |
February 7, 2009 - 4:16pm | Well I'm about done with this bad boy, wrapping up the finer details. The UPF destroyer is a 16 deck ship (although I'm contemplating a 17th near-sternwall deck, but just haven't decided what could go there) with the usual spacefleet accomodations and equipment, including a brig, medical bay, robotics room, surveilance center, barracks, quarters, passenger deck for political emmisaries etc, recreation and lounge areas, communication/detection arrays, operational centers, vehicle bays, and a small cargo bay. I'll be posting it soon. |
 February 13, 2009 - 12:56pm | Great job, Shadow! Here is a quick summary of the crew setup: Officers: Captain (Space Commander) XO (Commander) Chief Engineer (Lt Cmdr or Commander) Helmsman (Fleet Lieutenant or Lt Cmdr) Defense Officer (Lt or FLt) Chief Energy Gunner (Lt) Chief Rocket Officer (Lt) Boarding Party Leader (Lt or FLt) Chief Med Officer (FLt or Lt Commander) Astrogator (Lt) Communications Officer (Lt) Enlisted Boarding Party: 16 (two squads of 8) 3 Assistant Gunners/Defense operators 2 Medical Assistants 2 Security 2 Engineer Assistants 2 Cooks 2 Armorers 1 Comm Assistant 1 Astrogation Assistant 1 Cargo Chief 2 Robot Specialists 2 Computer Specialists Just a start, but I thought it might be cool to wind out your deck plans with some personnel. |
February 10, 2009 - 8:11pm | Check it out: http://upfdestroyer.20m.com I'll upload it to this project soon, but there it is for now. |
February 12, 2009 - 11:24am | I just checked out your site and I like where you put the vehicle bays; where the ship suddenly widens which give them a less restricted departure/ arrival point nice touch I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 12, 2009 - 4:49pm | Thanks. I had that on my original scans as well...my logic was despite the usual "mount 'em to the outside of the hull" routine that this is a military ship and as such it can have a few bells and whistles, including enclosed bays for the launches and lifeboat. Don't want those getting picked off by a clever gunner ya know LOL |
 February 18, 2009 - 8:13am | Good stuff. :-)
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February 18, 2009 - 8:29am | As an aside not every navy has marines. I'm currently painting up 30 Italian sailors (for wargaming) as the Italian navy of the colonial and WW1 period used navy personnel in place of the marines they didn't carry. There were Italian sailors at the Boxer Rebellion and transferred to army command during WW1 (though principally for operating artillery and anti- aircraft weapons or to run the armored trains) In the case of the Royal Marines of Clarion, which despite the flashy name are still classed a militia, the Royal Marines are the navy and the marines at the same time and in any boarding action of a Clarion ship the boarder better expect every occupant to be armed and to fight well- no room for conscientious objectors in that service! and if memory serves, in the SFKH-0 the whole crew of the Osprey are sent on boarding actions while the commander sat on the bridge. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 18, 2009 - 9:25am | We are playing that in SS's "Basically Speaking" which makes sense to board and inspect incoming ships. I wanted to know the likelihood of boarding parties during deep-space conflicts. Not that I think about it... nobody would board until the threat of attack was minimized. |
 February 18, 2009 - 11:12am | We are playing that in SS's "Basically Speaking" which makes sense to board and inspect incoming ships. I wanted to know the likelihood of boarding parties during deep-space conflicts. Not that I think about it... nobody would board until the threat of attack was minimized. Possibly spread out to damage cantrol teams? Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
February 18, 2009 - 7:15pm |
1> A UPF ship wouldn't need a boarding party as frequently as a militia ship would. The way I see it, a UPF ship would obliterate a pirate vessel rather than board/overtake it unless there was a Star Law incentive to capture a pirate leader etc. About the only boarding action I would see would be for suspected sathar agents, in which case the marines would most likely be replaced with Star Law rangers. The way I see it, a UPF capital ship's marine contingent would be more for the effect of preventing pirate vessels from overtaking the ship should they manage to cripple it. I see it more as a defensive role than anything. 2> Laser cannons, disruptor cannons, torpedoes, laser batteries, rocket batteries, and electron/proton batteries. It's well documented that a sathar vessel will self destruct rather than permit themselves to be boarded, and will try to take out any boarding vessel in the process. 3> Coupled with my first answer here, this is why I would suggest a dual role for marines: having at least half of them skilled in technical fields to assist the operation of the ship and the other half would be service oriented. You know, like an "Under Siege" Steven Segal grade cook, etc Which reminds me...I need to add laundry rooms to my deckplans LOL |
February 19, 2009 - 2:13pm |
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February 19, 2009 - 5:44pm | Remember that TF Cassidine and TF Prenglar are used to inspect incoming cargo vessels in those systems. That's why Prenglar and Cassidine have no militias. Actually, I'm not so sure those Task Forces would be dispatched for such duty. At least nothing larger than their scouts anyways, even the CMS Leo with her 15 member boarding party did not get involved with any inspection details. Also, each Task Force is stationed at one planet in a two planet system (although Strike Force NOVA is stationed at Prengalr's other world, but they're rarely there). That would entail a huge amount of inspection duty considering two worlds worth of incoming traffic, especially in "the hub of the Frontier" aka Prenglar. So even counting frigates, that would still be a huge workload. I honestly don't see anything larger than a frigate being useful in such duties, as they're not fast enough to keep up if a smaller vessel flees. At best they could only "keep up" and track such law dodgers... Add to that following the "Sathar agent" scenario in Warriors of White Light, I'm not so sure the UPF is ready to commit an assault scout to inspect a small freighter that could potentially contain a 4:1 crew ratio of sathar/agents intent on capturing a scout. As for why those two worlds don't have militias, lots of worlds don't...going by just the AD Frontier map alone there are 27 different habitable/registered worlds in the UPF and not counting the two Task Foces only ten of them have militias. Even counting the two Task Forces, that still leaves less than half the UPF worlds that are defended. Add in the scores of new planets and systems from Zeb's and that number of defended worlds gets even smaller. About all an undefended worls can manage is to inspect incoming cargo as the craft dock at their stations. Considering that NOVA is a roving fleet that is always out on patrol, and a few dispatched duty ships that do the same, this illustrates just how poorly the Frontier is equipped. As such, those Task Forces can and will be expected to leap and intercept at a moment's notice should a Frontier-wide threat pop up, so at best only a handful of smaller craft could be available for inspection duty in their homeworlds, and even so they would be subject to recall at anytime. In short, if a Frontier threat is discovered in another system, the entire task force can be dispatched to intercept it and leave their homeworld undefended. Play the Sathar War boardgame often enough and you'll see that UPF tactics revolve mostly around guess work and interception as they attempt to position their fleets in the way of inbound enemy fleets that have already ravaged a few systems along the way. Technically speaking, with the right fleet divisions and right start points (and an ounce of luck as to where NOVA begins the game) the Sathar can achieve half of their objective (destruction of six stations) right away without firing one shot at Spacefleet craft. Also consider the opening paragraphs in the "Background/Campaign Material" section of the KH Campaign Book: "The UPF is not an empire in any sense of the word. Matters of internal government are left to the member planets. The UPF does collect taxes for maintenance of Star Law and Spacefleet, but the United Planets are concerned only with the defense of the Frontier." |
February 19, 2009 - 6:38pm | Shadow- What you say is all correct, but nevertheless, I would think that all UPF starships would have strong Boarding Parties. Even if this is only for defense of the ship against boarders and internal security duties. And again, the various humanitarian missions, and anti-pirate activities would necessitate Boarding Parties. In regards to laundry - maybe this can be included in the crew quarters? Wall mounted washers/dryers? That might save you some redesign. |
February 19, 2009 - 7:56pm | No doubt, the UPF boarding parties are not to be underestimated, that's for sure. It's another reason why I suggest they are dual role characters...to reflect their actual skill and prowess. Rather than recruit someone that is just "good with a gun", their boarding party/marines would also be good with an electrodriver, or good with surgical tape, or good with a keyboard, or good with a vapor scanner, or good with a kitchen knife, etc. You know, throw in a low level non-PSA skill or two into the mix (one LVL:2 or two LVL:1 non-military skills). Have them useful in non-combat and non-boarding actions, yet ready to roar when needed. No sweat on the redesign, I already added the laundry room to both ships. I rearranged a little bit of the Frigate admin deck and the destroyer crew/gunnery deck but it fits like a glove now. |
February 22, 2009 - 1:56am | I am with you 100%. I would think that they would be very useful for roving repair duties - i.e. part of the Damage Control of the ship. First aid would also be a plus. Technical duties as well, to build the "bench strength" of the ship in the event of casualties. |
February 22, 2009 - 5:02am | Re: damage control --- the way I see it, unless an engineer is part of a small crew (civilian freighter, assault scout, etc), he/she is not getting their hands dirty so much. I would probably alot one engineer per drive on the ship, plus a chief at the most. They would actually be coordinating repair work, assigning multiple technicians (using their "repair machinery" skill) and maintenance bots to each task, and pitching in as needed. Hence the need for a good handful of technicians, and if some of them are dual-duty marines, more power to the boat. There's a reason why the term "grunt work" exists in the military... |
January 10, 2010 - 7:49am | Hello all, A bit late, but still adding my .02! Ships in our real world modern navies have 3-4 times the personnel necessary to run and fight the ship. Remember someone has to be on duty 24-7 while the ship is underway. During action all of these extra bodies have a "collateral" duty station such as damage control, fire fighting, and with our Space Militia and UPF ships it would follow that some of these extra ratings would be boarding parties/ship defence. I would agree with Shadow that these would be dual purpose crew members, but reverse the skills. Higher level ship operation/maintenance skills and minimul combat skills. After all, they spend 10 hours a day, year round operating a ship and a few hours every 6 weeks with that laser rifle! So your boarding party might be lead by Third Mate Neely (Junior Bridge watch Officer) Bosun Jones (who normally supervises the deck apes) and consist of member from all ship departments. Bosuns mate Zlotnik'k (an extra bridge watch stander with pilot 1) who actually pilots the boat, Able Bodied Seaman Pawnall, Edvard, Rencher, Baker and Alabaster, Stewards Moxie and Dragnomar, Junior Engineer Reed, ET (Electronics tech) Chawrowl and Life Support technician Kassipir provide the "grunts" (all 11 with minor skills to maintain and service the ship). Rounding out the party we add young Hames the JMSO (Junior Medical Services Officer) fresh out of the Academy. When not neede for boarding actions this same party provides an extra Damage repair team (led by Third Engineer Aspen), Fire Party (to prevent/extenguish fires...NOT start them!), or you ships fast react team to repel boarders. Again drawing a parallel to our real world navies only much larger or special purpose ships would have a dedicated "Marine" force. Lack of free space on ships don't allow for many idle hands and it takes hours of practice to gain "shooter" skills and many more hours to maintain them! For these dedicated "shooters" reverse the skill set. Corporal Smyth might not be a great technician but he is deadly with his gyro and won the Fleet Golden Gloves AGAIN this year. Regards! Dan |
