 December 1, 2008 - 11:18am | A discussion in the Setting thread brings up the issue of how our FTL travel is going to work. Do we
have "jumps" like in Star Frontiers where the travel time is mostly
spent getting to jump speed or a safe distance from the gravity well
and the actual FTL part is nearly instanteous or do we have some sort
of "warp" drive that allows you to move at some specified speed (i.e. 1
ly per day) so that you travel at a fixed rate? What other issues about FTL travel should we be considering? Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 3, 2008 - 2:27pm | Okay so I was just reading KH again... ADF1 isn't 1G. It's is a rate of acceleration equal to one hex per 10 minutes (we'll call this 10,000km/t). 1% of the speed of light is 179,875,474.8 km/turn, or 180 hexes per turn. This is the magic 0.01C that causes magical "void" travel (no more or less supersciency than stargates, but for some unknown reason is accepted by the hard science lovers among us). That means it takes 1800 turns (30 hours) of acceleration and covers 162,900,000km of "runway space" (haha) to reach 0.01C. The table below illustrates:
Note: it's 149,669,000km from the sun to the Earth. So, was your calculation of ADF1=1G a proposed new system or your interpretation of the ADF rules from KH? Just trying to understand... :-) Based on just the boardgame distances, I agree with you completely. I did that same calculations years ago myself. Given the boardgame turn and hex size the math works out to 1ADF = 27.7777777 m/s^2 of accelration or about 2.8g (For simplicity I just use 1g=10m/s^2 instead on 9.8). Your table agrees with my calculations exactly if you take that 2.777 factor into account. It's one of the many inconsistencies in KH. On page 33 of the Campaign book it says "On a normal interstellar voyage, the starship pulls away from the space station and begins accelerating at 1 g toward its destination star. This is about the same acceleration a ship uses when it increases its speed on the boardgame map by one hex per turn." Unfortunately this disagrees with the numbers from the board game. For purspose of travel I've always just take the Campaign book to be the correct answer. In conversations that other have had with some of the original SF authors, this seems to be what was intended but the boardgame never got fixed. If you simply change the hex size from 10000km to 3500km it all works out consistently (or very close anyway). I would propose that we do that for this game. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 December 3, 2008 - 2:52pm | Based on just the boardgame distances, I agree with you completely. I did that same calculations years ago myself. Given the boardgame turn and hex size the math works out to 1ADF = 27.7777777 m/s^2 of accelration or about 2.8g (For simplicity I just use 1g=10m/s^2 instead on 9.8). Your table agrees with my calculations exactly if you take that 2.777 factor into account. Ahhhh now I'm seeing KH in all of it's glory haha... okay, cool.It's one of the many inconsistencies in KH. On page 33 of the Campaign book it says "On a normal interstellar voyage, the starship pulls away from the space station and begins accelerating at 1 g toward its destination star. This is about the same acceleration a ship uses when it increases its speed on the boardgame map by one hex per turn." Unfortunately this disagrees with the numbers from the board game. For purspose of travel I've always just take the Campaign book to be the correct answer. In conversations that other have had with some of the original SF authors, this seems to be what was intended but the boardgame never got fixed. If you simply change the hex size from 10000km to 3500km it all works out consistently (or very close anyway). I would propose that we do that for this game. So... if we say a map hex is roughly 3500km then our ADF (maybe we should just call it Acceleration cuz people will say "hey that's what SF called it") of 1 is also the amount of G's we're pulling. Btw - "Void" probably shouldn't be used either... and "Hyperspace" is too star wars. Suggestions? Maybe we call it Quantum Space? um... I dunno. The whole voidspace thing reminds me of a tunnel diode. A tunnel diode is a conventional electronic component that acts as a diode normally does (that is, it rectifies a signal, only allowing electrons to flow in a single direction). However, there is a negative resistance region that defies normal physics, an effect taken advantage of but not quantifiable with calculations. Eventually came Quantum Physics, and a formula for the effect could be made possible to justify it... even if the cause for the phenomena is still not fully understood. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
December 3, 2008 - 4:23pm | So... if we say a map hex is roughly 3500km then our ADF (maybe we
should just call it Acceleration cuz people will say "hey that's what
SF called it") of 1 is also the amount of G's we're pulling. Btw - "Void" probably shouldn't be used either... and "Hyperspace" is too star wars. Suggestions? Maybe we call it Quantum Space? um... I dunno. The exact factor is 3600km, that just isn't as sexy as 10000 I guess  .I'd say drop the D and call it AF for Acceleration Factor (of course around here AF means American Fork ) The D stood for Deceleration and I always thought that Acceleration/Deceleration Factor sounded wierd not to mention that it was redundant.As for what to call the Void, there's nothing wrong with using hyperspace. I don't associate that word with Star Wars specifically, maybe others do. It's a farily generic term used in a lot of SciFi. On a related topic, I don't have a problem with stargates, just wormholes . I figure stargates and void jumping can work through space folding and alternate dimensions. I can get a "willing suspension of disbelief" about those ideas but something about flying into a black hole and expecting to come out of another at the other end (and still be in one piece) just doesn't work with me. You'd be ripped to shreds before you even hit the event horizon.Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 December 3, 2008 - 4:23pm | Okay so I was just reading KH again... ADF1 isn't 1G. It's is a rate of acceleration equal to one hex per 10 minutes (we'll call this 10,000km/t). 1% of the speed of light is 179,875,474.8 km/turn, or 180 hexes per turn. This is the magic 0.01C that causes magical "void" travel (no more or less supersciency than stargates, but for some unknown reason is accepted by the hard science lovers among us). That means it takes 1800 turns (30 hours) of acceleration and covers 162,900,000km of "runway space" (haha) to reach 0.01C. The table below illustrates:
Note: it's 149,669,000km from the sun to the Earth. So, was your calculation of ADF1=1G a proposed new system or your interpretation of the ADF rules from KH? Just trying to understand... :-) Based on just the boardgame distances, I agree with you completely. I did that same calculations years ago myself. Given the boardgame turn and hex size the math works out to 1ADF = 27.7777777 m/s^2 of accelration or about 2.8g (For simplicity I just use 1g=10m/s^2 instead on 9.8). Your table agrees with my calculations exactly if you take that 2.777 factor into account. It's one of the many inconsistencies in KH. On page 33 of the Campaign book it says "On a normal interstellar voyage, the starship pulls away from the space station and begins accelerating at 1 g toward its destination star. This is about the same acceleration a ship uses when it increases its speed on the boardgame map by one hex per turn." Unfortunately this disagrees with the numbers from the board game. For purspose of travel I've always just take the Campaign book to be the correct answer. In conversations that other have had with some of the original SF authors, this seems to be what was intended but the boardgame never got fixed. If you simply change the hex size from 10000km to 3500km it all works out consistently (or very close anyway). I would propose that we do that for this game. Of course, if you use 16.6 minutes for a combat turn, then ADF1 would equal 1G. Just an idle thought...maybe the authors rounded off in the wrong direction..... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
December 3, 2008 - 4:32pm | So... if we say a map hex is roughly 3500km then our ADF (maybe we should just call it Acceleration cuz people will say "hey that's what SF called it") of 1 is also the amount of G's we're pulling. Btw - "Void" probably shouldn't be used either... and "Hyperspace" is too star wars. Suggestions? Maybe we call it Quantum Space? um... I dunno. The exact factor is 3600km, that just isn't as sexy as 10000 I guess .I'd say drop the D and call it AF for Acceleration Factor (of course around here AF means American Fork ) The D stood for Deceleration and I always thought that Acceleration/Deceleration Factor sounded wierd not to mention that it was redundant.As for what to call the Void, there's nothing wrong with using hyperspace. I don't associate that word with Star Wars specifically, maybe others do. It's a farily generic term used in a lot of SciFi. On a related topic, I don't have a problem with stargates, just wormholes . I figure stargates and void jumping can work through space folding and alternate dimensions. I can get a "willing suspension of disbelief" about those ideas but something about flying into a black hole and expecting to come out of another at the other end (and still be in one piece) just doesn't work with me. You'd be ripped to shreds before you even hit the event horizon.What to call the Void? Ralph? Hyperspace works for me as well...it's generic enough to be dropped in, no probs. Also, The Stainless Steel Rat series used the term warpdrive to refer to what we would call hyperspace. Theoretical question, Tom. Would the black hole theory hold water if one entered it travelling FTL? Just curious. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 December 3, 2008 - 4:47pm | Hey, why not just call ADF, TF Thrust factor. Kinda covers it all in my book. And, the MR could be called vector rating. When you want to turn you change vectors, right? |
December 3, 2008 - 4:51pm | Sounds good to me. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
December 3, 2008 - 4:52pm | Hey - what about the 0.01C issue... if we use that, aren't we directly copying story-based content from KH? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
December 3, 2008 - 5:00pm | Short answer: Yes. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
December 3, 2008 - 5:01pm | You cna make the breakover speed any speed you want. You can make it 0.015c if you want to. I like to use kinetic jump speed myself. "You have to reach atleast 20% kinetic speed with that engine design to achieve a jump." I do not worry about the light speed, void, or wormhole junk. I just let the players imagine whatever they want as to what is happening. |
December 3, 2008 - 5:09pm | wait - are we going too far here? Didn't we think we should keep it overly simple and non-specific for the core rules and setting, 1LY/Day with no explanation as to how/why... anything else is for various campaign setting books.... wasn't that what we thought? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
December 3, 2008 - 5:15pm | You can still limit the max speed to 1ly/day your sensors do not respond that fast at this low of speed. Or something like that. |
December 3, 2008 - 5:16pm | You cna make the breakover speed any speed you want. You can make it 0.015c if you want to. I like to use kinetic jump speed myself. "You have to reach atleast 20% kinetic speed with that engine design to achieve a jump." I do not worry about the light speed, void, or wormhole junk. I just let the players imagine whatever they want as to what is happening. Better yet. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 December 3, 2008 - 6:36pm | wait - are we going too far here? Didn't we think we should keep it overly simple and non-specific for the core rules and setting, 1LY/Day with no explanation as to how/why... anything else is for various campaign setting books.... wasn't that what we thought? Kinda. Just enough detail to guide the imagination. "The races of the frontier came to know eachother through shear accident. At 0.015c with just the right ammount of tachyons a ship enters a region know simply as 'hyperspace'. Scientist do not understand how but have calculated that a ship can travel 1 light year per day while in this region." |
 December 5, 2008 - 4:41pm | my two cents worth; My quantum mechanics and quantum physics teachers, explained to me that FTL travel is a lot like a .zip file, things are compressed into something smaller which travels faster, over the internet, and th same is true of FTL travel, the ship gets compressed into light and is than transmitted to another point. Now the tricky part is, if the receiver of said .zip files doesn't have a Zip program, he file can't be uncompressed and is there by useless data, the same is true with FTL travel, you'd need a recieving gate to uncompress the ship so that the occupants don't spend eternity as a beam of light traveling through the galaxy. Now there are ways around this problem, and yes folding space and time is one of them, though you run into my friend and yours Chaos Theory at this point, also known as Murphy's Law anything that can go wrong, will go wrong. Because in order to fold space and time you'd have use a singularity the likes of which only god has ever seen, or on the other hand, you could simply just fold space, and the occupants would feel as though it were an instantaneous travel between points a and b but rather it took just as long as conventional travel to get there, just felt shorter to the occupants, who would shortly there after be struck by a freight train of time catching up with them, and causing rapid aging and senility in some cases, unless of course you counter the affects with cryogenics, or some fashion of time energy dispersal device. Jumping seems like a likely candidate for travel between systems, in so far as it's modified conventional travel and sublight speeds, where the vessel must reach a certain speed, to escape gravity wells before jumping from system to system, however the downside to this method is the need for fuel, and the time in between jumps. Now my personal favorite method of FTL travel was used in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, where they used wormholes between systems to get there faster. Again from the QuantumTheory Stand point its purely theoretical, and you run into Murphys Law once again, but, it'd be a far safer means than folding time and space, but less convient than Jumping, as not every system has a two way wormhole linked to another system; as I assue this is not Star Gate, though it would be possible on a theoretical stand point to create a manmade wormhole between the systems in a similar fashion to FTL Travel where you need something on bothsides to send and recieve, you'd achieve speeds similar to sublight speeds and it would be quit the same as Jumping from system to system only far more manageable, and less prone to things exploding, and children being ejected into space. So wormholes and or System Jumping would be my choices on the matter, as both are safe to a degree, and require very little in the way of thinking and math. |
December 5, 2008 - 4:45pm | Ok, dopey, but couldn't you use quantum tunneling on the macro scale to effect FTL, ala the stutterwarp from 2300AD? "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
December 5, 2008 - 4:51pm | Ok, dopey, but couldn't you use quantum tunneling on the macro scale to effect FTL, ala the stutterwarp from 2300AD? Its plausible, I'll admit. I hadn't thought about that, but it would require massive amounts of energy, on the scale of 3 Nuclear powerplants, with output into the 300% range each, just to sustain a tunnel this on the practical side and based on current quanum theory with existing technology, which is where I base most of my ideas. But it would work. kudos to you will. |
December 5, 2008 - 6:12pm | Or the proper harnessing of antimatter, as 1kg of antihydrogen combined with 1 kg of hydrogen generates 180 petajoules of energy. Now, if we could solve all the difficulties in harnessing antimatter power.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 December 5, 2008 - 7:15pm | whay if instead of te viod we called it z-space or zero space? (insert sarcastic comeback here) |
December 5, 2008 - 7:16pm | Or find that much anti-matter. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 5, 2008 - 7:27pm | True, very true. Why don't we just call it subspace? "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
