 November 30, 2008 - 12:08pm | How do we want to manage damage? I'm pretty happy with the way SF did damage, but there are alternatives out there. Option 1: keep it just how it is, even if that seems derivative. For one, many people think the system is not lethal enough, that a human just shouldn't be able to take a dozen bullets before dropping. To resolve this... Option 2: I've seen variant damage systems that increase the amount of damage caused by weapons. But to me, rolling five dice for every bullet is cumbersome. Option 3: Other suggestions (one made by me once) was to leave the basic damage alone and let that represent the inaccuracy of a poorly skilled person, but then to increase damage commensurate with weapon skill level. Option 4: Another suggestion made by someone once was to cut in half the pool of hit points available. If your character has a STA of 60, he has 30 Health. Damage applies to this smaller pool of health points. Option 5: Another suggestion is to use some form of ablative damage system like presented in an issue of the SFman, where each hit location has its own pool of hit points, either in the form of damage boxes or just a hit point total. Although this is interesting, it is very different and requires more record keeping. Option 6: (this one was suggested in the thread below) Instead of a pool of hit points, characters instead have to make a STA check (or whatever) against some penalty derived from the damage rolled. If successful, they are battered and shaken but can continue unhindered. If unsuccessful, their condition is worsened along some sort of track, inevitably leading to the end of the track, which is the end of the road for your character. Option 7: You suggest something... Once I have a few other options I'll make a poll. Discuss? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 November 30, 2008 - 12:39pm | Sounds like another Poll coming. I am flexible to the choices, although I think the original game is not reasonable with lethality. Get shot with a major caliber firearm and you will likely die or at the very least suffer from massive trauma, major organ damage, or loss of limb. This is not the case in SF. I believe that we can do better as we refine a system. It need not be totally lethal (as that offers little fun), but we can figure out something a tad better. Perhaps also this can be addressed through the equipment side of things. Raising damage figures or otherwise making the weapons more effective, across the board. <insert witty comment here> |
November 30, 2008 - 12:44pm | <snip> Yeah - but rather than addressing it by adding lots of dice of damage, we should also consider just keeping the damage values similar but lowering the hit point total. It's not a bad suggestion.Perhaps also this can be addressed through the equipment side of things. Raising damage figures or otherwise making the weapons more effective, across the board. Maybe a poll would be best. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 30, 2008 - 12:48pm | We could also use a system where STA forms the basis for a health check or damage check. Fail the check, and you are down or limited. Fail multiple times (each successive harder to succeed as well) and you are dead. Some other games use variations on this theme. Its worth a look. <insert witty comment here> |
 November 30, 2008 - 1:20pm | Option 5. It worked well enough for GDW's Twilight-system games, it should for us. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 November 30, 2008 - 1:40pm | I would like to go with option 5. Having used a system like that for years playing other games, it's really not that much more record keeping. And it addresses the lethality issue. For example if the target has 60 STA total, maybe their head would only have something like 20 STA and a good sollid hit from a single gyrojet round or an average hit from a 4 SEU laser would take them out. It would allow you to leave the damage from the weapons basically alone. (I really need to write up this system I have in mind so you guys can see it) Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 30, 2008 - 1:42pm | We could also use a system where STA forms the basis for a health check or damage check. Fail the check, and you are down or limited. Fail multiple times (each successive harder to succeed as well) and you are dead. Some other games use variations on this theme. Its worth a look. Interesting idea. I added it as option 6. Anyone else have any suggestions before we make a poll?3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 30, 2008 - 4:29pm | If we do agree on option 1, can we all agree that 0 STA(or whatever)equals dead as a doornail, please? My main pet peeve with SF's and similar damage mechanics is that you have to have so many negative HP before you finally croak. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 December 1, 2008 - 5:32am | i likethe idea of the stamina checks instead of HP. We could have different kinds of hits (mortal critical flesh and graze) It never made sence to me that if 2 guys got shot one would servive because his STA is 5 pts higher i mean it makes sence in a fist fight but will thoughness matter if you get shot in the heart? (insert sarcastic comeback here) |
December 1, 2008 - 12:08pm | i likethe idea of the stamina checks instead of HP. We could have different kinds of hits (mortal critical flesh and graze) It never made sence to me that if 2 guys got shot one would servive because his STA is 5 pts higher i mean it makes sence in a fist fight but will thoughness matter if you get shot in the heart? bullets are woefully underpowered in SF, but we have to make sure there's a chance for people, ya know? I love the idea of an innovative system if we can make it feel right. But the system will have to allow for variable levels of damage for different weapons, different skill levels maybe... etc. No tables/charts for resolution - all RPGs are getting away from that nowadays.We should playtest with this STA check option, it's innovative. I think the only other game that I know of that uses a system like it is Mutants & Masterminds - they have a damage saving throw. Here's an idea to get us started: There is no damage roll. YAY! One less roll in combat. Let's begin with a 3-strikes-you're-out concept. Wound Track All characters have a "Wound Track": -Unharmed -Battered -Wounded -Incapacitated Damage for a pistol might have a damage rating of -20. That means, if hit, you make a STA check at -20. We can adjust the lethality of the game during development by adjusting these damage modifiers until we're happy. A punch might have a damage rating of +10, meaning you get to make a STA+10 check to avoid the damage.
Just a first draft playtest idea - any comments? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
December 1, 2008 - 12:15pm | Check also Savage Worlds style... here is the link to the Rule Test Drive http://www.peginc.com/Downloads/SWEX/TD06.pdf Similar, but damage rolls play into it as well... thus working in the 'some guns are better' thing <insert witty comment here> |
December 1, 2008 - 4:06pm | i likethe idea of the stamina checks instead of HP. We could have different kinds of hits (mortal critical flesh and graze) It never made sence to me that if 2 guys got shot one would servive because his STA is 5 pts higher i mean it makes sence in a fist fight but will thoughness matter if you get shot in the heart? bullets are woefully underpowered in SF, but we have to make sure there's a chance for people, ya know? I love the idea of an innovative system if we can make it feel right. But the system will have to allow for variable levels of damage for different weapons, different skill levels maybe... etc. No tables/charts for resolution - all RPGs are getting away from that nowadays.We should playtest with this STA check option, it's innovative. I think the only other game that I know of that uses a system like it is Mutants & Masterminds - they have a damage saving throw. Here's an idea to get us started: There is no damage roll. YAY! One less roll in combat. Let's begin with a 3-strikes-you're-out concept. Wound Track All characters have a "Wound Track": -Unharmed -Battered -Wounded -Incapacitated Damage for a pistol might have a damage rating of -20. That means, if hit, you make a STA check at -20. We can adjust the lethality of the game during development by adjusting these damage modifiers until we're happy. A punch might have a damage rating of +10, meaning you get to make a STA+10 check to avoid the damage.
Just a first draft playtest idea - any comments? True20/Blue Rose use a streamlined version of the M&M play system. Your idea's definitely more playable than Friday Night Firefight, which tried doing much the same thing, Bill. I like it. Playtesting is necessary to maybe make it less complicated(I have no suggestions on that right now)or if it even slows down play at all, but I like it. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
December 1, 2008 - 6:09pm | i really like this but how would we handle healing and medicine? (insert sarcastic comeback here) |
December 1, 2008 - 6:35pm | Maybe something similar to the Death Save mechanic from FNFF(Cyberpunk's combat system). "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 December 4, 2008 - 6:13pm | I have a contribution to make on this subject, that pretains to ship combat. I've been tooling around with something that my friend Judson and I made for an RPG system that never took off. The basis is different materials used for Hull plating and Armor plating, and giving them a set amount of maximum damage protection per thickness by the inch or so. The same material scale can also be used for different slug firing weapons only inverted, i.e. tungsten does a slightly greater amount of damage opposed to Lead, etc. The Weapons damage scale also applies to laser weapons and other type energy weapons by uing different focusing lenses made from different materials and so on. I can probably find the info I have in my archives somewhere, or I can create a new table for use in this project unless someone has a better idea. Keep me posted. |
December 5, 2008 - 10:35am | Sorry for the Double post, but I just had a thought. You can make it more involved for the players and combine Options 3 and 6, having skill determine the damage, and also use the wound track to manage character injury. Not only will you have damage system that works smoothly, but can also make it less one dimensional when it comes to combat, because it won't just be a matter of what weapon a character uses, but also a matter of how skilled they are with it that will ultimately determine the out come of combat. And we can go further into this with ship to ship combat if we want, using my aforementioned table, along with ship weaponary, but we can incorporate ship sensors, evasive piloting, and much more in the way of skills to determine how it turns out. Thats my thought... or rather second thought on the subject... again sorry for the double post. |
December 5, 2008 - 1:35pm | this wound track system will make it MUCH eassier to handle larer scale combat with alot less math involved (for the kids) (insert sarcastic comeback here) |
December 6, 2008 - 1:35am | 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
December 6, 2008 - 1:55am | this wound track system will make it MUCH eassier to handle larer scale combat with alot less math involved (for the kids) :-( I liked it. I may test it again after tweaks... 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
December 6, 2008 - 7:00am | I had another idea on how to deal with damage, but it is not fully thought out... bear with me. Perhaps we can leave the Endurance (STA) system largely intact. Weapon damage are also largely intact, but with the addition of extra damage and crits from weapon skills. For the player-characters, who largely should be heroic and resilient, there is no change from this model... but for NPCs we implement a 'Mook Rule' where they use END/2. It might not mean they actually die, but they drop out of combat, fall unconscious, or run (sort of a combination of morale and damage mechanic). This makes most of regular people drop much easier, but your BBEG (big bad evil guy) would use the more heroic method the players also use, but fully under the control of the Ref. This can be carried over into the critter world too; most regular animals (deer, non-trained dog-like creatures, herd animals, etc) would be mook style (1/2 END), while Siberian Tiger (effectively a BBEG for the scenario) would be normal END... as would a Grizzly Bear, or War Beast, or Mutant Wolf pack. Summary: Mooks are easily taken out of combat... losing half their END is enough to effectively end their fight. Referee can declare what happens, or possibly a table can be consulted for some random effects. It is not quite a 'one hit and they are out' mook system like some games use, but it certainly could be with a good hit using a reasonably powerful weapon. I will try to work this through a scenario or two and see how it does. <insert witty comment here> |
