TerlObar November 29, 2008 - 1:13pm | In the interest of getting down to brass tacks, I'll star this thread on the skill system to be used in the game. As I see it there are a few choices that I'd think would work, you all can chime in on others or make suggestions. 1) Bill's system as proposed in SFMan 9, probably with embellisments. This has the advantage/disadvantage of being similar to the original AD system, just expanded and cleaned up a little. We could flesh it out more and expand it as needed. 2) Another option would be to go more along the lines of the skill system provided by Zeb's guide, where all the skills are broken down into lots of little skills and the XP cost is lowered for advancement. 3) We could take a route that gets us away from XP altogether. I'm thinking of something along the lines of Chaosium's Basic Role playing system (as used at least in early editions of Call of Cuthulu and RuneQuest) In this system, you would have a large list of skills available as well. A starting character would begin with some inital set of skills and have some percentage for success with each of those skills. As the skills are used, the character has a chance to increase his ablility with those skills (typically at the end of an adventure). In addition, exisitng skills can be improved or new skills learned through training. The method makes character generation a bit more involved but adds a bit more realism. Of course the is also the issue of pre-requisite skills that we would have to tackle. For example, I would expect that you can't do astrogation untill you have some basic backround in computers, astronomy and mathematics. Of course we'll have to figure out if we want to worry about this or not. Questions, comments and discussion beging now... Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
TerlObar December 1, 2008 - 3:08pm | In the system I've played, you only get check marks for successful use of the skill during a session. You can attempt all you want but if you fail, you don't get a check. Also, knowledge based skills that require training and research to learn initally have a 0% base chance. Until you've learned something through training, you can't even begin to do it successfully (most of those skills also don't have checkboxes and can only increase by research and training, somthing want to change.). I'm not clear on the question of specialists. In this system weapons skills are checkable skills just like the others. In fact, in that game each weapon was a unique skill (broadsword was differnt from rapier was differnt from cutlass, it was a fantasy game) and you got checks on the skills you used. If you favored one weapon over another, you got better in that weapon, effectively specializing in it. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
CleanCutRogue December 1, 2008 - 3:31pm | I'm not clear on the question of specialists. In this system weapons skills are checkable skills just like the others. In fact, in that game each weapon was a unique skill (broadsword was differnt from rapier was differnt from cutlass, it was a fantasy game) and you got checks on the skills you used. If you favored one weapon over another, you got better in that weapon, effectively specializing in it. That having been said, I"m in no way saying this new idea is foolproof or even good... I'm only presenting a twist. Maybe I'll playtest a lil and write an article for the SFman about it, let others try it out and comment...? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
Will December 1, 2008 - 3:38pm | Instead of PSA, maybe, Skill Set? "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
TerlObar December 1, 2008 - 3:47pm | I agree, you should get some benefit from attempting even if you fail. The problem is how to quantify it. Just because you failed doesn't mean you learn anything. It just means you failed. The same is true for success, just because you succeeded doesn't mean you learned anything either but the mechanic already covers that, not every check results in a skill increase. I don't know how to resolve the issue, but I will say from years of playing this system it works very well, at least I never had any issues with it. I'd almost have to say that experience through failure would have to be up the referee. If the referee felt that the character would have a chance to learn from his failure (or maybe multiple failures), he could grant a check even though the skill didn't succeed. Then it would be rolled up like normal. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
SmootRK December 1, 2008 - 4:08pm | Another consideration for this revised method comes from the Ref not providing the opportunities for the player to develop their character in the way they want. For instance, all the objectives solved via military commando tactics when the player(s) really desire a RP heavy game, or a player really desires a Technologist/Agent type of character and the Ref typically sends Alien Critters hell bent on destruction. This sort of gaming conundrum can, of course, happen with any sort of gaming group... but with the standard XP system, at least the player has the option of building her character along their own desires, rather than constrained to what the Ref has put her up against. Anyhow, fuel for thought. I would still like to give alternate systems a good going-over, but honestly the basic simplicity of the low amounts of XP of SF was a draw for me, rather than the massive numbers and class systems of say d&d type games. But lets see what this alternate looks like in at least a roughly complete presentation. <insert witty comment here> |
CleanCutRogue December 1, 2008 - 4:17pm | That settles it for me - you're absolutely right. I've played in games before where I had a strong character concept that was never allowed to grow to fruition because the Referee had a specific focus for the campaign that precluded my imagination from his grand scheme. Bad GMing, I guess, but there it is. But I think it's worthy of playtest. Another consideration for this revised method comes from the Ref not providing the opportunities for the player to develop their character in the way they want. For instance, all the objectives solved via military commando tactics when the player(s) really desire a RP heavy game, or a player really desires a Technologist/Agent type of character and the Ref typically sends Alien Critters hell bent on destruction. <snip> Then again, I did make that nifty little table back in SFman #1, page 14. Since that's purely made up by this community and not a single word taken from any other source (and tends to lead to a 1-10 XP award) we could use that as-is, making the book come together quicker. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
TerlObar December 1, 2008 - 4:28pm | Here is a bit of the write up explaining how to increase skills by experience in this system. There are other sections on increasing by training or research. I've adapted it a bit to our vocabulary . In this system all skills are precentile based, there is no such thing as levels. Also the 1d6 and 3 points at the end could be changed to 1d5 and 2 without much effect other than making it a bit slower to increase skills. Skill Experience Rolls Successful use of a skill indicates that the character might be able to improve his or her ability in that skill. An experience roll made at the end of the adventure determines whether or not actual improvement has been made. Whenever a character successfully uses a skill and the referee agrees that the success is worth an experience roll, the player checkmarks the small box next to that skill on the character sheet. If there is no box next to the skill percentile, then the skill cannot be increased by experience. The written record of the right to make an experience roll is called and experience check. An experience check for that particular skill is made only once per adventure, no matter how many times the skill is successfully used. The outcome of an action or situation cannot remove an experience check: if a character successfully Hides, for instance, and is then found with a Search roll, his player may still put a check on the character's sheet for a successful Hide. Referees generally allow experience checks whenever skills are successfully used in a stressful situation. An attack against a helpless target is not a stressful situation and does not deserve an experience check. Likewise, taking an hour to bypass security on a computer is not a stressful situation - but doing it in just a few combat rounds as the Sathar approach is a stress situation and deserves a check. After the adventure, when the referee rules that the characters have had time to think about what has happened, then a player may be allowed to make an experience role for each check on the character sheet. Remember: only skills which have experience-check boxes next to their percentiles can be increased in this manner Making an Experience Roll The experience roll is a d100 die roll. if the result of an experience roll is higher than he character's current percentage for that skill, then the experience roll succeeds. Increasing Skills by Experience A player can add 1d6 percentiles to a skill after a successful experience roll. The result of experience varies - an character may learn much from one incident and little from another, no matter how successfully he performed either time. If a player does not feel lucky, he can choose to add 3 percentiles to his character's skill without making the 1d6 increase roll. But he must choose to do this before rolling the die. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
SmootRK December 1, 2008 - 4:30pm | Well, I wasn't necessarily trying to shut it down, but to ensure we consider the various ramifications or situations presented by such a system. I still think it sounds interesting enough to consider as an Optional Advancement system. <insert witty comment here> |
TerlObar December 1, 2008 - 4:32pm | That settles it for me - you're absolutely right. I've played in games before where I had a strong character concept that was never allowed to grow to fruition because the Referee had a specific focus for the campaign that precluded my imagination from his grand scheme. Bad GMing, I guess, but there it is. But I think it's worthy of playtest. Another consideration for this revised method comes from the Ref not providing the opportunities for the player to develop their character in the way they want. For instance, all the objectives solved via military commando tactics when the player(s) really desire a RP heavy game, or a player really desires a Technologist/Agent type of character and the Ref typically sends Alien Critters hell bent on destruction. <snip> That is a good point. I guess I just always had a good ref. Definitely something to consider. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
Colt45 December 1, 2008 - 6:04pm | i really like the idea of not having the ever occuring xp i think that i will start trying this in my campain (insert sarcastic comeback here) |
Shing December 2, 2008 - 8:09am | One other possibility is to gain proficiency by succeeding in a skill by a certain margin. Many written tests we do in the military have to be passed with a 60-80%, a 50% is not a pass to us as that means you have only retained half the knowledge that was taught. Not so good for a medic to only know half of what he should. So what if some skills only increased by getting 60% more than you require? Say you have to hack a computer, you have a 50% chance to succeed. You roll a 55 and get in, but you don't gain anything from it as you just barely made it (10% over the requirement). If you rolled 80 (60% over the requirement), then you would gain in skill. More difficult skills would require a roll to be 80% over the requirement, in the case above you would require a roll of 90 or more to gain in skill. The skill gain can be as simple as 1 point or .1 of a point, depending on the difficulty of the skill or even the common use of the skill to prevent a quick rise. "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
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CleanCutRogue December 2, 2008 - 10:08am | Say you have to hack a computer, you have a 50% chance to succeed. You roll a 55 and get in, but you don't gain anything from it as you just barely made it (10% over the requirement). If you rolled 80 (60% over the requirement), then you would gain in skill. More difficult skills would require a roll to be 80% over the requirement, in the case above you would require a roll of 90 or more to gain in skill. The skill gain can be as simple as 1 point or .1 of a point, depending on the difficulty of the skill or even the common use of the skill to prevent a quick rise. Keep the ideas coming - I'm enjoying all this brainstorming. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
w00t (not verified) December 2, 2008 - 11:08am | Then again, I did make that nifty little table back in SFman #1, page 14. Since that's purely made up by this community and not a single word taken from any other source (and tends to lead to a 1-10 XP award) we could use that as-is, making the book come together quicker. I'm for this system with a Optional XP system in the back of the GM book. Also, Bill brings up a good point about our children. Most likely this game will be handed down generation after generation after gen... ok you get the point. The material, artwork and mechanics should be kid friendly, meaning at a level that can grasp *almost*. It's not a kids game, but a good GM can tailor it such. The game still needs to have enough "meat" to appeal to an adult audience. |
SmootRK December 2, 2008 - 11:12am | I will second this. The simplicity of the game should be there. It is one of the draws that keeps me in touch with this game, while other games have disappeared from my library. Also, Bill brings up a good point about our children. Most likely this game will be handed down generation after generation after gen... ok you get the point. The material, artwork and mechanics should be kid friendly, meaning at a level that can grasp *almost*. It's not a kids game, but a good GM can tailor it such. The game still needs to have enough "meat" to appeal to an adult audience. <insert witty comment here> |
CleanCutRogue December 2, 2008 - 11:34am | I'm for this system with a Optional XP system in the back of the GM book. What do you mean here? You're for "this" system - which one? you mean the 1-10XP system from sfman#1? Then you're reccommending adding optional systems in the GM book? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
Shing December 2, 2008 - 11:58am | The easy answer is a chart, but maybe not a popular one as charts can get messy (lots of numbers and the inclusion of fractions if numbers are not rounded up, down or off). Other than that a calculator would be the only other way I can think of in this system to get the right value. "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
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TerlObar December 2, 2008 - 1:18pm | The easy answer is a chart, but maybe not a popular one as charts can get messy (lots of numbers and the inclusion of fractions if numbers are not rounded up, down or off). Other than that a calculator would be the only other way I can think of in this system to get the right value. I think this is starting to make it too complicated. With the base system I've proposed, if you succeed you get a chance to improve. Improvement isn't guaranteed and gets harder as you get better. I don't think an extra mechanic is needed. When you have a low skill level, there is lots of new knowledge out there for you to gain and you increase in skill relatively rapidly. As your skill increases, the chance of suceessful use giving you new knowledge goes down proportionally. As an example, say your skill with the Laser pistol is 75%. Over the course of an adventure you successfully nail a bad guy or two in the heat of battle. You have earned an experience check. You get back to base and the Ref says it's time to roll up checks. Since you have a 75% skill already, you only have a 25% chance to increase your skill. So at this skill level, only one in four adventures will give you a skill increase. On the other hand, if your skill is only 25%, your chance to increase in the skill is 75% and you will more likely than not gain some knowledge from the encounter. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
CleanCutRogue December 2, 2008 - 2:08pm | Agreed. I'm going to use the XP system from issue#1, in the design documents, and plan to work on some optional modular systems as we go. Let a Referee tailor his rules with his settings. I have a new question... sorta important as right now I'm working on the first draft of the Skills design document: Lots of people have complained about the skill breakdown for military skills over the years. I mean - how much more difficult is it to shoot a bullet than it is to shoot a gyrojet - they're both pistols, right? But I want to keep the skill list lite because simplicity is part of what makes SF so great. So to help differentiate us from the game that's inspiring this new system, here's what I'm thinking: Skills of the Military Field of Study: -Unarmed Combat -Melee Weapons -Thrown Weapons -Pistols -Rifles -Heavy Weapons -Starship Weapons -Demolitions Then we can allow those who wish to specialize to do so. Specialization wasn't presented in issue 9's article, but there's no reason we couldn't have a system of specialization. The simplest form of specialization that would require very little playtest is: Specialization All skills are intentionally broad in nature. If you wish, you may have your character specialize in certain skills to narrow his focus among the many facets of the broader scope of that skill.
Effects of Specialization If your character is specialized, his level is considered 1 higher when using that facet of that skill, but is considered 1 lower when using other facets of that skill.
The drawback of specialization: When your character reaches level 5 in his base skill, his area of specialization is maxed out, since the highest effective skill level in this game is 6. Thus, the only incentive for a specialist to reach level 6 in his base skill would be to increase his effective level for unspecialized use of that skill from 4 to 5.
3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
w00t (not verified) December 2, 2008 - 2:23pm | I'm for this system with a Optional XP system in the back of the GM book. What do you mean here? You're for "this" system - which one? you mean the 1-10XP system from sfman#1? Then you're reccommending adding optional systems in the GM book? SFman #1 The New Way At the end of a game session, the referee goes through the following checklist with each player. One experience point is awarded for each of these that apply. This will result in receiving 3-7 experience points per session, with no more than 10 being awarded, just as in the original way. Secondly, this thread is spawning ideas of an optional system, perhaps something should be included. I realize this game can't be all things to all people. I've always enjoyed the optional stuff in the back of the AD remastered book. |
w00t (not verified) December 2, 2008 - 2:28pm | Bill, I don't see that drawback as a concern. A skill isn't eternal, it's limited. You can never be perfect. Your system reminds me of SW d6 WEG - a character can specialize in a related subset. I also like the tendency of abstraction. The Rules state x, y and z skills. During character creation (and with the GM's approval) a player can pick x number of specializations according to his skill set. oh ya. I love it when a plan comes together. |
CleanCutRogue December 2, 2008 - 2:37pm | A skill isn't eternal, it's limited. You can never be perfect. <snip> Yeah, I didn't mean it's a drawback of the game mechanic suggestion - I meant that it's a drawback to consider when selecting whether or not you as a player may wish to specialize. Other than the obvious drawback that you're at level-1 when dealing with the rest of that skill. Someone is inevitably going to ask: why can't I specialize in laser pistols, then down the road pick up a specialization in gyrojet pistols? I think the answer is obvious: if you want that kind of flexibility for your character, you don't want to specialize. Specialization implies a narrow focus. If you're doing it just to get an extra +10 to hit at level one, it's the wrong idea for your character :-P hehe As for the number of specializations... you should be able to choose whether or not you want to specialize in any of your selected skills. It really should be your choice, ya know? I mean, you ARE sacrificing other uses of that skill quite a bit... so if you really want to specialize it's your choice. Imagine a guy specializing in a sonic sword (or whatever) at Melee Weapons: 1, then his Referee crash-lands him on a planet where he ends up fashioning a spear to defend himself from the natives... suddenly he fights unskilled with that weapon! It's a simple mechanic that I'm certain will work fine in play. I think the drawbacks of my suggested specialization mechanic balance the benefit well... I would only chose to limit my character that way if and only if it worked best for my character concept. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
CleanCutRogue December 2, 2008 - 2:39pm | But the biggest question is whether or not you folks like the different breakdown? Instead of beam weapons, gyrojet weapons, etc... I chose Pistols, Rifles, Heavy Weapons, etc. It really doesn't matter too much, it is just a thought to consider. What do you all think? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
SmootRK December 2, 2008 - 2:50pm | I think you could draw a line between Energy Weapons of the various forms (pistol, rifle, heavy), and Projectile based (pistol, rifle, heavy).... I can imagine significant differences in how one aims, accounts for wind, gravity considerations, recoil, etc. when it comes to those two differentiations. Then one can take into account gun care, does one who can dis-assemble and re-assemble a projectile weapon (like an Army grunt) have the same skill with the mechanisms of energy weapons? <insert witty comment here> |
w00t (not verified) December 2, 2008 - 2:50pm | I would prefer it borken down a little further (I think). Beam Projectile One uses windage, range while the other does not. Also, you might want to add Mounted Weapons (on vehicles)? ( or is that covered with Heavy Weapons) |
CleanCutRogue December 2, 2008 - 2:54pm | hm.. okay, well then stick with the beam/projectile/gyrojet/archaic breakdown? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
Shing December 2, 2008 - 2:59pm | The "generic" list of military skills is fine for me and for the most part you are right, a rifle is a rifle and a pistol is a pistol. The differences are such that only by going into more detail than is desired would they come out. I.E. single-action pistol vice a double-action pistol (to me a single action is quicker and more accurate, but to others the opposite is true), a 7.62mm rifle vice a .22cal (both easy to fire, but some find the 7.62 to be too much), they are the same in general design but firing them is technically very different. Just tossing that out there as I am sure technically a beam weapon would have less recoil than say a gyrojet or a slug thrower, which is why I think they were separated from one another. Again, just tossing it out there, I support the division by type vice by what they fire in order to keep things simple. It is of course possible at a later date to introduce optional weapon rules, almost like a basic and advanced version of the game. On the specializations themselves, are they chosen at the start or can they be chosen later in life? It would present an unsual quirk where if at level 2 pistols I chose to specialize in beam and suddenly lost skill with all other pistols. "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
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w00t (not verified) December 2, 2008 - 3:01pm | hm.. okay, well then stick with the beam/projectile/gyrojet/archaic breakdown? That's my line of thought. |
CleanCutRogue December 2, 2008 - 3:10pm | On the specializations themselves, are they chosen at the start or can they be chosen later in life? It would present an unsual quirk where if at level 2 pistols I chose to specialize in beam and suddenly lost skill with all other pistols. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
CleanCutRogue December 2, 2008 - 3:37pm | hm.. okay, well then stick with the beam/projectile/gyrojet/archaic breakdown? That's my line of thought. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
SmootRK December 2, 2008 - 3:41pm | hmm weapon specialization... perhaps we could simply allow an additional +5% per skill level with a single specialized weapon type (ie. +15% per skill level overall). Carry this over to some of the skills, Medical Fields choose a specific race for the bonus. Environmental choose a particular terrain/ecosystem type (mountains, volcanic, oceanic, methane forest, ???). I think if we look at each skill we can figure out a way to make an easy specialization mechanic for it. I would be inclined to state that a character can only choose one specialization, but perhaps a mechanism for changing specialization can be developed (at an XP cost). <insert witty comment here> |