 November 24, 2008 - 5:52pm | Here's a quick and dirty answer off the top of my head. The fighters have a better time in the advanced rules than in the basic rules since the shots from the cruiser could damage other systems instead of the hull (not that a fighter has many other systems  ). From a purely statistical standpoint, it would take on average about 15 Assault Rocket shots to destroy a heavy cruiser. That assumes that 1) only half of the shots hit. 2) only half of the ones that hit do hull damage 3) of the shots that do damage, 40% do double damage, 60% do normal damage 4) damage rolled is completely average (15 pts) Those numbers are based on the combat tables. Obviously it could take more or less. A flight of six fighers carries 18 AR. I'd say that would be a near even match with the cruiser having the advantage. Eight fighters would tip the advantage in the fighters' favor and ten fighters should be able to eliminate the cruiser without a problem but probably loosing about half their number. The thing that will really trip you up in the board game is the defensive fire rule. If the cruiser gets a few lucky shots in and elminates enough of the fighters early, there won't be enough AR left to finish it off. It all comes down to a bit of tactics and the luck of the dice. If it was just fighers and a cruiser and no other ships, I think I could probably almost always destroy the cruiser with 8 fighters and get it with 6 about half the time Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 November 24, 2008 - 7:38pm | It also matters if you're using the generic to-hit percentages or using player character skills. A highly skilled character has better to-hit rates and would therefore tip the scales. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 November 24, 2008 - 7:46pm | Thanks for the input. I'm putting together a "cost" for each type of KH ship. Trying to balance the cost totals so that I can figure out how many of each type of ship I need to take on another fleet. For instance, I did simple math by adding the average of (HP + ADF + MR) and (DCR) to get the cost for each type of ship. <!--[if gte mso 9]>
4 fighters cost 100 pts while a HC cost 100 as well but I can see that is mis-balanced. 8 fighters x 25 = 200  Back to the drawing board. |
November 24, 2008 - 8:45pm | Yeah, to get that 50 percent hitting I assumed the basic 60% to hit w/o skills, two ICMs average at each AR and no head on shots. In practice you would probably almost always get head on shots +10% and a HC only has 8 ICM's. So the truth of the matter is that the hit percentage would most likely be more around 65% instead of 50% requiring fewer total shots (12 instead of 15). Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 25, 2008 - 12:27pm | Based on all your experiences how would I derive at a cost for each type of ship to balance out a battle? Do you think I will have to run several KH boardgames and test out fleets? Base it off % to hit and hull damage? I really need a push in the right direction... |
 November 28, 2008 - 9:03am | I think you have to run a few boardgames to get an idea on how to assign point costs. But, basing it off percentiles is the way to go, I think. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 28, 2008 - 1:05pm | I think you have to run a few boardgames to get an idea on how to assign point costs. But, basing it off percentiles is the way to go, I think. As we discussed in chat I'm abandoning the arbitrary number in the Combat Table and going with Character driven values. In my game you don't have to make a complete character -- you simply assign values to DEX, LOG and INT (Pilot, Gunnery, Astrogation and Sensors). So... the COST is not simply per type of ship, it's also Pilot and Gunnery values. :-) "Oh ya, it's all coming together now." -- Kronk |
November 28, 2008 - 1:12pm | Yeah, that's a better system. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 December 4, 2008 - 3:54pm | I'm going to side with skill levels as well. 2nd or 3rd level pilots will have an easier time launching their birds over rookie LVL:1 pilots. Or even if you allow a rookie pilot with a gunnery assistant taking the back seat (Gollwin grads have level 2 gunnery skills), that would be the equivilent of a level 3 pilot. Also keep in mind the fighter/assault scout ability of evasion, that helps keep the cruiser's guns from hitting (but hampers lining up the next AR shot). |
December 4, 2008 - 4:40pm | But not the ARs from the assault scout you have lying in wait while the fighters tie up the cruiser's guns. Or even the pod lasers from the next group of fighters lying in ambush.... Rollback, say it with me, rollback.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 December 4, 2008 - 5:07pm | I think the Heavy Crusier would trounce four fighters... All comes down to luck though. But if I had to, I would put my chips on the Heavy Crusier. Getting through the LBs, EB, and PB is going to be a challenge for the fighters, assuming they use their manueverability to hit the big guy from behind. If they are dumb enough to engage within the envelope of the Disruptor Cannon, then they are really dead. But even with the assumption that the fighters attack from the rear, they are still in bad shape. I would say that at least one fighter is going to be destroyed in the long range approach to the Heavy Crusier, especially if ship skills are being used. Then, the HC can launch all of its ICMs up front to minimize the initial damage, firing another deadly round of battery fire as the fighters dive in on their final AR runs. Speed is also vital here, of course. If the fighters commit to a high speed slicing attack, then the Crusier will only get 2 gun passes with its batteries. I would imagine 1 fighter being destroyed in each broadside. Meanwhile, the fighters will launch 1 salvo of ARs (3, since one was destroyed from range). If the fighters come in slower for some reason, then they will have more launches of ARs, but the Heavy Crusier will also have more battery broadsides. At high speed, the fighters have to take a couple of turns to turn around, which will give the HC at least a single repair session as well. At that point, they will sustain another salvo of medium range battery fire, which may blast yet another fighter. That would leave just one measly fighter firing one measly assault rocket on the second pass. Game, set, match: Heavy Crusier. Skills are largely to the UPF advantage, but even then the Sathar would benefit if the skills were counted in. I would think that the magic number here for fighters would have to be at least 6... |
December 4, 2008 - 5:21pm | Which is why you sic more than four fighters on a heavy cruiser. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 December 4, 2008 - 5:29pm | One carrier with a load of 10 fighters could be enough to do the trick. |
December 4, 2008 - 5:37pm | Five to tie up the guns, five to make the kill. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
December 4, 2008 - 7:38pm | Thanks everyone for the wonderful input. What if the Fighters ditched the AR's for laser battiers (forward fireing only) or Laser Pistons? |
December 4, 2008 - 7:58pm | What if the Fighters ditched the AR's for laser battiers (forward fireing only) or Laser Pistons? Pod Lasers, Laser Pistons, FF laser batteries...that would serve the cruiser more than the fighter squadron. For one thing, energy weapons must deal with range diffusion (-5 to hit per hex between targets), and another thing is less damage if a hit is scored. The advantages a laser serves on a fighter is for anti-fighter roles and having more than three shots, against a large target rich in hull points you really need to cause some damage instead. There's simply a better chance to hit with rockets, and they cause far more damage (moreso if you use the damage table modifiers: -10 for a 1 in 5 chance of double damage per hit). The bottom line with the AR system, once you launch that last bird it's time to boogie on outa there, so you'd better have built up some speed in prior passes! |
 December 4, 2008 - 8:18pm | Five to tie up the guns, five to make the kill. Skills would definitely factor in, but you are also forgetting an important factor: Rum. depending on how much rum the the cruiser carried, the fighter would see one space-suited figure on the hull with a bottle in on hand hand and a pistol in the other broadcasting "For the rum!" On the othere hand, there would be one fighter flying "upside-down" from the rest of the squadron, flying erratically; most likely backwards, and launching empty bottles broadcasting "More rum!!" or flying straight in-in, balls to the wall, screaming "Where's me rum?" Tonight's broadcast brought to you by Brinley Gold rum... (Wonder if I can get them to sponsor me for paintball??) Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
December 5, 2008 - 10:18am | Lol, Rogue... Larry, I prefer a mix of AR and laser-armed fighters, to maximize your chances of killing that big ship. Or setting it up to be taken out by a torpedo-armed frigate.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
