 March 24, 2008 - 1:23pm | I just posted something that brought back some great memories of one of my favoritehard sci-fi movies of all time: Runaway, with Tom Selleck as a bomb squad cop and Gene Simmons (of KISS) as one of the best terrorist villains in cinema hisory. I must have watched that movie a few hundred times when I was a kid. I wish I owned it on DVD. We're just barely one step removed from that today. Other favorites of mine include the obvious: Blade Runner, Alien, Aliens, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Serenity, and I'm sure there's plenty others that aren't coming to mind at the moment. |
 April 17, 2008 - 7:37am | Baltar in the new BSG may be physically attractive, but he's an infinitely more complex character than the 70's series. In fact, the clear-cut idea of a "bad guy" in the new BSG is an enormously slippery concept. Half the time, the threat to mankind comes from within. That willingness to ride the razor's edge is what makes it so good. And for people that don't like it... no problem. There is more than enough cheese churned out by the pizza factories for them. ;) This lack of a clear moral good/evil axis is precicely what I find wrong with 90% of TV. Buffy had a clear good-evil system, and was campy, and took itself seriously. THe Original BSG wasn't just family entertainment, but a series of Morality Plays. And morality is lacking in modern TV... NBSG, well, the only redeeming moment in the pilot, from my point of view, was Tigh getting killed... he was a surly, nasty drunkard who should have been put out to pasture decades prior. What the two other eps I've seen have shown me is a program where the immorality is rewarded (especially baltar's), and a bunch of snivelling emos... I get too much of that IRL, I sure as hell don't want it on my TV, too. By the same token, I prefer CSI and Law & Order to anything following real police... because I want to see the bad guy get caught. |
 April 17, 2008 - 3:27pm | This lack of a clear moral good/evil axis is precicely what I find wrong with 90% of TV. Buffy had a clear good-evil system, and was campy, and took itself seriously. You state your position very clearly. Unfortunetly, IMHO there no such thing as clear morality in real life. If there was all the citizens of the G8+ countries would have to be shot to death for squandering the planet, letting millions people die of starvation and disease every year knowing full well we could solve these problems if we just put our collectives minds to it. Todays TV is about what we have become... «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 17, 2008 - 8:43pm | I disagree with the lack of clear good/evil, but then, I also am strongly religious. I see a clear line, and I see people letting the governments cross it, mostly by whom they elect. I also don't see TV mirroring the changes in society, but driving them. Mostly since the censors started letting things slide. |
April 18, 2008 - 4:11am | I see ... we come to a stalemate. Classic self-determinism vs Faith. Let's get back on Topic. Any new SF movies or TV shows you like Aramis? «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
 April 18, 2008 - 7:02am | FullBleed - camp over grit?? Are you kidding me? With the hot cylons with their plastic boobs running around? The flagrant titillations of these ridiculous "half-breed" stories? Can BSG2 pander any more cheddariciously to the 14 year-old teenage boy crowd? That's "grit"?? Reminds me of Voyager, where they took Jeri Ryan, put a couple of pieces of plastic on her face, put her in a tight jumpsuit, and suddenly the ugliest creatures in the galaxy (Borg) had a "hot" representative. What crap! Rather than camp over grit, I would say ground-breaking over cheese. In terms of Ed James Olmos - I thought he was awesome in Miami Vice. That was the perfect character for him. I'm not saying that he is a bad actor, but this is not a good fit for him. |
April 18, 2008 - 7:17am | Oh and one more thing - the old Battlestar Galactica theme song ROCKS. I still listen to it to this day. The new theme song? Um... lame? |
 April 18, 2008 - 7:29am | This lack of a clear moral good/evil axis is precicely what I find wrong with 90% of TV. Buffy had a clear good-evil system, and was campy, and took itself seriously. You state your position very clearly. Unfortunetly, IMHO there no such thing as clear morality in real life. If there was all the citizens of the G8+ countries would have to be shot to death for squandering the planet, letting millions people die of starvation and disease every year knowing full well we could solve these problems if we just put our collectives minds to it. Todays TV is about what we have become... I know we're back on track in this forum, but one of your statements must be responded to... Collectively judging all citizens of G8 countries to death is more an indication of your own bias than morality. We could all clearly point fingers at every culture, society, ethnic group, and nation on this planet and point out horrible things done in the past, or currently. Death is an extreme punishment and one that ignores any possibility of good or redemption... . And quite frankly, I could easily point to every nation on this planet and point out issues where they directly contributed to global suffering or, through non-action, allowed it to go on. I could easily continue this, but I don't want this to become what it will become if I do so. Apologies for picking this up again. |
 April 18, 2008 - 10:04am | As far as FTL, it may not have been proven but the theory has been sound for a long time especially in the realm of quantum physics where studies are being conducted on how particles are poping in and out of our physical universe all the time. SF definitely treads on the parallel universe theory pretty routinely as I dont ever remember seeing the frontier on a star chart.....lol. I don't know that FTL should be excluded from Hard Sci-fi as long as it is based on real scientific theory that exisits today. A movie that just says we got FTL for the sake of spanning a great distance in 90 minutes really shouldn't qualify as hard sci-fi. For example, the movie Contact definitely was about FTL and made for some very compelling lean towards a hard sci-fi movie. Just my humble opinions. I agree. |
April 18, 2008 - 12:12pm | FullBleed - camp over grit?? Are you kidding me? No. I'm not even close to kidding, and I suspect that your response is purely argumentative. For the record, the 70's show is campy. Very campy. The 00's show is distinctively "not campy" by any standard definition of the term. Likewise, it is distinctively "gritty" by any standard definition of the term. Why this observation would be offensive to you, or draw debate, is beyond me. With the hot cylons with their plastic boobs running around? The flagrant titillations of these ridiculous "half-breed" stories? Can BSG2 pander any more cheddariciously to the 14 year-old teenage boy crowd? That's "grit"?? I would argue that there is one flagrantly "hot" Cylon, and she was developed as such so that she could infiltrate human society. All of the Cylons play off of human emotion and weakness (sexual attraction, unfortunately, being one of man's greatest.) When you create a tool to perform a specific task, and you have the ability to create it well, you wouldn't dumb it down. She is cast perfectly. And on a more professional note, the actress in question (Tricia Helfer) is a very good actress (one of the best on the show), despite the fact that she is beautiful (as if being beautiful needs to be justified.) They didn't just slap a pretty face in the position. She's had to cover a very wide range in her role and has done an admirable job. In a world of very mediocre Sci-Fi actors, she's easily in the upper-half. As for the "half-breed" storylines being titilating... I just don't see it. I find absolutely zero titilation in that storyline... and I suspect that if you fully understood how that storyline has been used within the framework of the series you'd feel very differently. As for the notion that "what's wrong with today's entertainment is the fact that there is no clear definition of good and evil"... well, that's the true human condition. For every person who is 100% positive their way is the "right" and "moral" way, I can probably find another billion or 2 that have a slightly different take... let alone the fact that circumstances can (and often does) turn any hard and fast rule of right and wrong on its head in real life. I find that the Cylcon's propensity for good and evil (like man's) makes them compelling dramatic characters. They are, by all definitions of the term, "super-human." Both in intellect and emotional response. They are a constant study in the struggle between the Id, Ego, and Super Ego... to the Nth degree. I believe it is very difficult for someone to watching them fumble with their humanity like it's a kind of psychosis without being forced to peer ever closer at their own. So, while I may share the view that we need more moral people in society, I simply do not share the view that this is best achieved by not challenging people to choose "good" when "evil" may be easier and more attractive. When someone does something "good "because it is the easy thing to do, or the obvious thing, I'm just not impressed. I simply expect that of them in their roles as decent human beings. It's easy to watch an unrealistic archetype "always do the right thing." But life is a lot messier than that and I find it more interesting to see characters (and people in rl) challenge themselves, and others around them, to pursue moral goals in the face of compelling "evil" and personal gain. I find the NBSG to be far more biblical in its approach to "good" and "evil" than a "Superman" comic typically is. Where being "good" is often the harder path, not the easier. Thus I believe that the moral lessons gained from the new BSG have more believability because they often work very hard to show just how difficult walking the path of righteousness can be, even for people that we consider forces of "good." I would say ground-breaking over cheese. Well I, too. believe that the NBSG is ground-breaking. But I think you're being a little hard on the old one calling it "cheese." It was, despite being a little simplistic, still decent sci-fi camp that the whole family could watch. In terms of Ed James Olmos - I thought he was awesome in Miami Vice. That was the perfect character for him. I'm not saying that he is a bad actor, but this is not a good fit for him. This is a very strange observation on your part. Given that you hate the show, why do you feel compelled to even offer an opinion on the fitness of one of its core actors? It's like someone saying, "I hate pecan pie. And I believe the pecans in this particular pecan pie should be different pecans." I think you'll find that amoung people that actually enjoy the show, Olmos is as universally loved as Stewart, Shatner, and Duchovny were in their respective roles. He, like the "hot-cylon", was cast wonderfully. And, no doubt, the success of the series owes a great debt of gratitude to the work he's done in the role. |
April 18, 2008 - 12:24pm | "I would say ground-breaking over cheese. And how was the old show campy? Granted, they did not have the CGI stuff that they have now. But you have to cut them some slack and look past the rudimentary special effects that they had back then. In terms of the storylines? Maybe a little in certain episodes. But it certainly does not merit the condemnation of "very campy" or "campy". |
 April 18, 2008 - 12:28pm | You state your position very clearly. Unfortunetly, IMHO there no such thing as clear morality in real life. I couldn't agree less, and this from a sometime athiest and part-time pantheist. The position that there is no clear-cut good and evil is a cop-out for those who want to justify evil means and evil ends...sort of like the "greed is good, workers' rights are bad" corporate mentality of the last 28 years. If there was all the citizens of the G8+ countries would have to be shot to death for squandering the planet, letting millions people die of starvation and disease every year knowing full well we could solve these problems if we just put our collectives minds to it. Todays TV is about what we have become... With this, I agree 87%. We haven't become today's TV inasmuch as TV reflects the lies we want to believe so we can be crappy towards our fellow man. As for the new BSG, ImpLord speaks for me as well. Far from being the "gritty human drama" its defenders claim it is, this sad apology for a SFTV series is more of the cynical, self-serving "supposedly good ends justify evil means, with a mix of MTV-sexuality," which has infested every aspect of our culture and has corrupted SF fandom in particular. As a fan of Babylon 5, let me say that the two don't compare. Strazcinsky's series has a clearly defined sense of good and evil, with an overly optimistic theme(at least in the four syndicated seasons, the less said about the TNT season the better)which can be summed up in the words of Tolstoy, when he says,"if evil men can work together to get what they want, then so can good men to get what they want." "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 18, 2008 - 12:35pm | Ah Babylon 5! I almost forgot. I was not a big fan of the show as I found it a little bit complicated - such that if you miss an episode or two from the serial you are totally lost. BUT - I gotta give Bab5 HUGE props for what they did with the Captain going to the Capitol City of the Shadow and ramming that nuke-filled spaceship into their city and wiping out their leadership, while killing himself (and his brainwashed wife) in the process. That, gentlemen, is GREAT TELEVISION! I was absolutely stunned when they did that. Killing off a main character, after several seasons, like that? I was really impressed. Although I remember that they had some sort of thingy where they brought him back or something. I stopped watching sometime after that. I would like to get the DVDs and just watch the whole thing when snowed in on some weekend or something. I get the feeling that if I was to see every single episode as they intended, and not miss anything, the show is probably one of the best ever. |
April 18, 2008 - 12:52pm | You'll be in for a treat, ImpLord. "Zha'ha'Dum," was a great season-ender, and, having aired in first-run at the same time Star Dreck:First Contact was in theatres, it gave me a line for a scathing review I did of the latter: "...with plotholes big enough and deep enough for John Sheridan and the White Star both to fall through." Yeah, Sheridan met the very first First One at the bottom of the hole down which he fell and he gave him just enough life to go on living another twenty years...which I admit is a bit of a cop-out, but like Harve Bennett and Leonard Nimoy did with Star Trek III, Strazcinsky found a way to make it work. I do advise against watching the so-called 5th season of B5 which aired on TNT, and definitely avoid all the B5 movies after In the Beginning like a trailer-park hooker with sores on her mouth. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 18, 2008 - 12:53pm | You'll be in for a treat, ImpLord. "Zha'ha'Dum," was a great season-ender, and, having aired in first-run at the same time Star Dreck:First Contact was in theatres, it gave me a line for a scathing review I did of the latter: "...with plotholes big enough and deep enough for John Sheridan and the White Star both to fall through." Yeah, Sheridan met the very first First One at the bottom of the hole down which he fell and he gave him just enough life to go on living another twenty years...which I admit is a bit of a cop-out, but like Harve Bennett and Leonard Nimoy did with Star Trek III, Strazcinsky found a way to make it work. I do advise against watching the so-called 5th season of B5 which aired on TNT, and definitely avoid all the B5 movies after In the Beginning like a trailer-park hooker with sores on her mouth. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 18, 2008 - 1:13pm | Oh, and FullBleed - let's see if the re-make can pass this cheddar test: Would what's-her-name be in that role is she was NOT smoking hot?
QED |
April 18, 2008 - 1:06pm | And if her old man wasn't one of Illnois' more powerful politicos.... Now, if the comparison between the originial BSG and...that other show(created/produced by the protege of Rick Berman, Killer of Franchises)comes down to a matter of SFX, one has to realize that for the 1970s, that was cutting edge SFX, the notable exception being Star Wars: A New Hope, for which Lucas had to invent much of the special effects he used in that movie, spawning the company which does much of the SFX for today's generation of movies and creating most of the techniques in use by TV and movies today. Of course, the influence of the CGI work done by Optic Nerve Studios for B5 is also being felt in the industry as well. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 18, 2008 - 3:15pm | The position that there is no clear-cut good and evil is a cop-out for those who want to justify evil means and evil ends...sort of like the "greed is good, workers' rights are bad" corporate mentality of the last 28 years. Sorry to deflate your bubble dude : I work from 9 to 5, have a wife, a car and a house. A very ordinary morally sound life. I don't cheat, I don't smoke and only drink in the presence of guests. I'm a member of Green Peace, recycle my garbage, involved in community work from time to time and always give away my older stuff to the Salvation Army when I can afford new ones.  Mouhahahahaha!«Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 18, 2008 - 6:59pm | I see ... we come to a stalemate. Classic self-determinism vs Faith. Let's get back on Topic. Any new SF movies or TV shows you like Aramis? Not recently, no. Most of what passes for Sci-Fi lately is Sci-Fan, and the rest I dislike. I did enjoy the sequels to Pitch Black, despite their going Sci-Fan, and love Serenity/Firefly. I've been rewatching the Old BSG, morality-play that it is, and enjoying it immensely. I've also been rewatching Alien Nation. It holds up well, much to my surprise. I neither like nor dislike SG1 & SG:A... I've seen a number of each recently, but it's just not my cup of tea. |
April 18, 2008 - 7:53pm | ... and love Serenity/Firefly It was a great show. To bad the network killed it. How do you perceive Malcolm Reynolds? What is Sci-Fan? Do you mean Sci-Fantasy? «Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 19, 2008 - 8:20am | The position that there is no clear-cut good and evil is a cop-out for those who want to justify evil means and evil ends...sort of like the "greed is good, workers' rights are bad" corporate mentality of the last 28 years. Sorry to deflate your bubble dude : I work from 9 to 5, have a wife, a car and a house. A very ordinary morally sound life. I don't cheat, I don't smoke and only drink in the presence of guests. I'm a member of Green Peace, recycle my garbage, involved in community work from time to time and always give away my older stuff to the Salvation Army when I can afford new ones. Mouhahahahaha!Awesome. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 19, 2008 - 8:26am | ... and love Serenity/Firefly It was a great show. To bad the network killed it. How do you perceive Malcolm Reynolds? What is Sci-Fan? Do you mean Sci-Fantasy? Malcom is a hero who pretends to be a rogue so as to fit in with the society in which he lives...until the events in Serenity, particularly on Miranda, push him into revealing his true nature. He pretends to himself he has nothing left to believe in, just so the faith he does have never gets betrayed, and while claiming not to need anyone, he wants to keep his friends and crew close to him to keep them from being lost as so many of his comrades were at Serenity Valley. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 19, 2008 - 9:45am | ... and love Serenity/Firefly It was a great show. To bad the network killed it. How do you perceive Malcolm Reynolds? What is Sci-Fan? Do you mean Sci-Fantasy? Actually, I find Mal to be quite interesting. A bit of a coward, in that he never faces himself. He'll face death, mayhem, even the alliance... but he can't tell Inara he loves her... instead, he snipes... due to his own internal dislike of her profession. Her leaving was quite obviously painful for both, and neither can come to grips. A man whose moral compas has been skewed by betrayal one time too often, but still firmly grounded in an atypical morality. In D&D terms, Chaotic Good. The kind hearted bandito. Heck, it is yet another series of morality plays... How far do you go to protect those whom you care about? Why do you care about them? When does a revolution end? And yes, Sci-Fan is an old-timer abbreviation for Science-Fantasy, that section which is too far removed from reality as commonly accepted to remain in science fiction. Star Wars is best known exemplar. |
 April 19, 2008 - 11:51am | And yes, Sci-Fan is an old-timer abbreviation for Science-Fantasy, that section which is too far removed from reality as commonly accepted to remain in science fiction. Star Wars is best known exemplar. Star Treck is a better example of sci-fan. Star Wars should be condisidered History. Afterall, its starts out "A long, long time ago..."  Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 April 19, 2008 - 4:17pm | ack! You guys are still trying to figure out whose BSG is better!?! Just chock it up to different tastes and move on. fyi - I like both. They have different goals and target audiences. One is not truly meant to 'replace' the other if that were even possible. <insert witty comment here> |
April 19, 2008 - 5:02pm | fyi - I like both. They have different goals and target audiences. One is not truly meant to 'replace' the other if that were even possible. Well said SmootRK. Its what I «tried» to say earlier in the tread but failed miserably...! 
«Language is a virus from outer space» William S. Burroughs |
April 19, 2008 - 11:22pm | One is not truly meant to 'replace' the other if that were even possible. The director disagrees. He said his goal was to replace the Old BSG in the hearts and minds. |
April 19, 2008 - 11:32pm | So I guess it didn't happen for you... can we all move on? <insert witty comment here> |
April 20, 2008 - 8:41am | My last comment might sound a bit harsh. It is not my intention to be condescending, only to move the thread away from a 'my dad is better than your dad' discourse... and going back to the OP discussion of interesting SciFi flicks. I loved Serenity/Firefly with the old west in space feel. <insert witty comment here> |
April 20, 2008 - 9:40am | My last comment might sound a bit harsh. It is not my intention to be condescending, only to move the thread away from a 'my dad is better than your dad' discourse... and going back to the OP discussion of interesting SciFi flicks. I loved Serenity/Firefly with the old west in space feel. Back to movies...the Trek franchise was at its best, IMO, when it released Treks II-VI. Like the series, the first one and the last four should never have been made. For those who like animé movies, I very highly recommend Titan A.E. as well as the aforementioned Gundam F91. Also, even if they're more Sci-Fan(or just plain fantasy, God these labels are slippery) than anything else, the Nausicca In the Valley Of Wind movies. Equally good TV series(other than the ones I already mentioned) are Macross/Robotech, Otherworld, Trigun, and, yes, even Space Battleship Yamato/Star Blazers and the short-lived Space Rangers:Fort Hope, which had the advantage of being better than ST:BS9.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
April 20, 2008 - 10:02am | Will: DS9 was excellent for its goals... a space opera set in the trek universe. Me, I wish Mercy Point had continued. (somewhere I've 4 eps on VHS...) I've never seen any of the Gundam series; the novels, however, are excellent. And yes, the labels are slippery... it's a continuum, that's why HardSciFi - SoftSciFi - SciFan - RealisticFantasy - Fantasy |
