 March 12, 2008 - 5:24pm | Dear all: In reading through the Star Frontiersman, I noticed virtually all of the new alien races were humanoid. We have Cat people, Rat people, Bat people etc. One of things I liked about SF was that not every race was humanoid, Ul-Mor, Edestekai, Dralasite, Vrusk etc. I think we can do better than cats and rats, let's see what kind of non-humanoid races we can come up with. I have a number of ideas, but I think we need to start with a basic racial premise, as in silicon based life forms, aquatic, gas, etc. Thanks! mRgUnN |
 March 12, 2008 - 11:19pm | I whole-heartedly agree. We need to move beyond, though I have some myself, that have human appearance, but which are primarily animal in form (crawling on the ground, but able to stand, having odd numbers of limbs, but standing upright and using some limbs like arms). It's hard for many people to escape the human mold because they find it difficult to imagine having a different form than a human form. When you look at it, all of the SF races in the original rulebooks are very humanoid in appearance. Dralasites appear as standing upright with a semblance of a head and typically two arms. Vrusk stand upright and have two arms and a head, but simply have an abdomen that extends behind them with extra legs. Yazirians ARE humanoid, Sathar even appear to stand and hold weapons. The humma are the farthest removed, as they look like kangaroos, while the Ifshnit are dwarfs, the Osakar have feet for hands but essentially are humanoid, then the Mechanon are built in humanoid form. The Volturnus modules presented much more interesting creatures in their diversion from the human form, but when you look at it, the 3 races in this game that deviate from the human form all have one thing in common: they have many tentacles and a bulbous center from which they arc. So really, none of the races are that original. If you want a completely original race that doesn't have a semblance of a human form or the semblance of an octopoid form, you should do one yourself and submit it to the Star Frontiersman for publishing.  |
 March 13, 2008 - 1:30am | I agree with OP's post up to a certain point... ...but then one must factor in a 'play-ability' factor. Who is going to play a 'Horta' silicon lifeform (from Star Trek)? What about other races that do not have anything remotely like hands? What about a brain-in-a-jar, with telepathy and some form of telekinesis? Would a dolphin-like lifeform be interesting to play... maybe for a little while, until the limitations become too onerus to deal with. I think that we should all endeavor to create interesting races that depart from the human norm, but the races must be able to interact successfully in the intestellar culture that exists. I think that includes the ability to handle materials/objects/space-craft/etc in at least some recognizable way. To depart having certain qualities (like those listed) might be viable for intelligence, but might not be amiable for technology (as in the dolphin example). I must go to work (real life sucks), but I will probably follow this up with a few more points to ponder... but please, if you feel you can overcome these obstacles, I would love to see the results. <insert witty comment here> |
March 12, 2008 - 11:25pm | Yeah, that demonstrates the difficulty. Look at Men in Black. With the exception of the talking dog, there's only two forms you see in those movies: humanoid and tentacled. Everything else is just too limited to perform complex tasks and movement. If an alien normally crawls upon the ground, it still needs to be able to stand up and use its appendages for complex tasks, so it still ends up looking humanoid. |
March 13, 2008 - 2:22am | I was not necessarily considering these races to add to the pool of player character races. Rather to create a set of unique sentient races that could be introduced into a campaign. |
March 13, 2008 - 8:40am | I was not necessarily considering these races to add to the pool of player character races. Rather to create a set of unique sentient races that could be introduced into a campaign. Even with this in mind, a sentient (and technologically equivalent) race must be able to interact with its environment (as in handle objects in some manner, and it must have a means of locomotion.I am no evolution expert, but it seems to me that technology would not develope (in recognizable ways) without first becoming upright to allow for some sort of handlike appendage to begin to control its environment. I think it is no wonder that the species who have moved to upright stances (namely men, and apes to a lesser extent) are the primary beings who use tools. Other species might be intelligent, such as dolphins or even elephants, but their form otherwise inhibits use of technology. When looks at the past, even the archeologists believe that the bipedal form is a precursor of advanced intelligence (as they postulate that certain dinosaurs may have been quite bright - for a probably exagerated example look to the Jurassic Park movies). Now, I am not saying that someone could not envision intelligence arising from alternate means, but that it is more likely to mirror certain fundamentals that are seen in nature as we know it. There are areas that can be explored for intelligence beyond the humanoid form. One area that immediately comes to my mind is artificial lifeforms (robotic in other words). The mechanons could use a total redesign if you ask me. It seems that they could take on a number of forms using a number of different locomotions and or manipulating appendages. Another area that has already been explored is something similar to an Octopi type of being (albeit not an underwater variety). In my earlier post, I spoke about play-able options. NPC races could be radically different, but the game mechanics in Star Frontiers boils everything down to stats/moverates/attack/defense/etc. Any race crafted must ultimately be compared to the humanoid norm in order to extrapolate the appropriate statistics. Certain questions must be asked when crafting a race... "Does this race have a viable (and believable) place in its ecology?"; "what prompted this race to become intelligent or to develope technology?"; "how long has this race been developing techology?"; "was this race engineered or otherwise guided in their development (like the Volturnian races)?"; "Does this race have a believable means to interact with the other races?" There are more questions that can be postulated, but basically it must fit the game in order to be viable as either a PC race or as a 'critter' race or monster... that is ultimately the limiting factor. If it cannot be inserted into the existing schema, then it is going to be useless (or unused as a creature). forgive the disjointed nature of this post; I have small children bouncing around me all the while I was trying to write this post... difficult to concentrate and keep a consistent line of thought with nonstop interuptions. <insert witty comment here> |
March 13, 2008 - 9:13am | That was actually a really good post. |
 March 13, 2008 - 1:20pm | Heh heh. SmootRK, while reading through your post, I had visions of a random table for really bizzare lifeforms. Have to mees with that idea in my spare time. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
March 13, 2008 - 5:27pm | Dear all: I agree that a race needs to have the capability to manipulate its enviroment. Being up right is useful but not absolutely necessary. However, my point that Rat people, Bat people, and Cat people are weak still stands. The following are races from Twilight 2300, each is very interesting and unique. I was thinking more along these lines.   |
March 13, 2008 - 6:33pm | I guess that establishes my point. I see 3 humanoid non-humans and 2 tentacled beings. Just one can be considered truly unique, but I get what you're saying in that they're not identifiable with known creatures. That is definitely what we need more of. |
March 13, 2008 - 9:28pm | I would honestly have to read through a description of any said being to make a judgement. Like I posted above, I would need to see an ecology that would make a being believable. I would not imagine seeing multi-tenticled creature on any given world unless that was the norm for that world (a world full of mult-tentacled critters as well). A world where starfish became the dominant lifeform would have to have a plethora of similar creatures up and down the food-chain... much like we see mammals up and down our (human) food chain. Just because an artist can craft an interesting picture does not make it workable for me. I must be able to look at the form and decide that the being would have a chance to become the dominant lifeform. The tree-looking being (for example), just does not look like a decent example because it does not look like something that could move well... and if the world it came from had no natural predators for it... then why did it develop intelligence and/or technology? The human form is reasonably fast, incredibly manipulative of its environment, and the upright stance allows it to scan for predators well... and we could site examples where critters have each better of these qualities... but few that have all (in similar proportions). And just so everyone knows, I am not trying to be contrary to the OP's request. I think that we should try to divulge from the 'humanoid' norm, but only in a realistic way. <insert witty comment here> |
March 14, 2008 - 3:16am | I think you mean that there would be a large number of variations of the form repeated on the planet (as you said it seems to indicate that most creatures on the world would have to look like it; since relatively few creatures on earth have similar forms to humans compared to other forms, that would then be unreasonable, but there are many varieties of primates on earth, which is what I think you meant). Of course, that would also ignore the possibility of an ancient extinction event in which that particular arm of the species may have been one of the few surviving species, and for that reason won't find many others of that particular species, or perhaps they developed so far back that most other creatures of the same line branched off so that you can no longer recognize them as being the same family. After all, we have very few memento species left over from the dinosaurs today. If one branch had come off to develop an Eorna-type race that were still around today, there would be no creature we could point to that looks like them because of the massive extinction event that got rid of most of them, and the ones that remained turned into birds of every kind and possibly lizards and other creatures. There are actually many reasons why there might be few other variations of a creature on a world in which the dominant race survived, but most of its cousins did not. To go into detail about that would make for interesting reading, but wouldn't serve much purpose in the game unless a campaign were built around the contributing event or their culture is steeped in the event. |
March 14, 2008 - 7:22am | I agree with what you are saying... and when I said similar creatures up and down the food chains... I mean similar as in 'mammals of different sorts' and not necessary something quite as narrow as 'simians' or 'monkeys'. In a dinosaur dominant race (Eorna being a wonderful example), I would expect a number of dinosaur creatures filling the ecology from top to bottom.... ... but yes, advanced technology, world shaking events (E.L.E.), space-faring with lost homeworld, etc. all allow for really weird creatures to be presented, but I would feel the same as the OP with regard to these. Just how many lost civilization technologically advanced strangely tentacled races are OK before we need a reality check with something that looks more like real creature that has evolved from critters with a recognizable (or naturally favorable) form. The SF races are well thought out... Humans (duh) Yazirians (another simian evolution) Vrusk (evolved insectile race) Sathar/Ssessu (evolved segmented worms) Dralasites are the hardest to swallow as a single cell, but as a multicellular ameoboid or slime race works for me. What I have seen in SFman has also been fairly well explained, even if I would not necessarily use all the given races. Again, I am in total agreement with OP... I just would not want to see overly fantastical creations without any basis in reality; It would just be wasted paper for my game. If things are well thought out, and logical, then the races/creatures might have a role in games I play/run. <insert witty comment here> |
March 14, 2008 - 11:50am | You also have to remember that we don't even know what any of the original races homeworlds look like and what kind of creatures inhabit their worlds. What creatures inhabit the Dral homeworld? We don't know. What kind of creatures inhabit the Yazirian homeworld? We don't know. What kind of creatures inhabit the human homeworld? Well, we saw one picture with a flying space squirrel in it. What kind of creatures inhabit the Vrusk homeworld? We don't know. My point being that we don't need to know everything about the ecology of an alien. All we need to know is that the alien can function as well as any of the other races. |
 March 14, 2008 - 8:24pm | Why? I don't know too much Star Trek alien influence maybe? I had a race of reptilians that were very humanoid only because it seemed more natural that other lifeforms would develope the same way as it did on this world. Only the question would then be if that was the case why aren't they all humans? I have attempted to make them look more like intellengent velociraptors or even alligators, but then designing their equipment and stuff then becomes a chore. And it also becomes incompatable for use with other lifeforms, no games where the UPF uses stolen or captured velociraptor equipment as it's too big or something. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 14, 2008 - 9:01pm | Why? I don't know too much Star Trek alien influence maybe? I had a race of reptilians that were very humanoid only because it seemed more natural that other lifeforms would develope the same way as it did on this world. Only the question would then be if that was the case why aren't they all humans? I have attempted to make them look more like intellengent velociraptors or even alligators, but then designing their equipment and stuff then becomes a chore. And it also becomes incompatable for use with other lifeforms, no games where the UPF uses stolen or captured velociraptor equipment as it's too big or something. The play-ability factor illustrated yet again. This is one of the points I meant to make... but I was off on other tangents. All part of the 'fitting into the existing schema'. Thanks for adding this. <insert witty comment here> |
March 15, 2008 - 3:09am | I don't really see a problem there. There are already compatibility issues between the known races. Vrusk use different weapons and defensive suits. Dralasites are pretty much the same. Yazirans must also have custom defensive suits. I would think that the economy of such a Frontier would accommodate such differences. It would be built in from the beginning. You just can't have universality of equipment in a galaxy where not everyone has the same biology. I don't think such things are an issue at all except in figuring out how you're going to treat it in game. Using that for an excuse to make every alien be humanoid is non-sensical in my eyes. Each race is going to have its own economy based on weapon, tool, vehicle, and outfit design, while other things, such as materials, food, and services will contribute to a more universal economy. It's something a Referee has to consider anyway regardless of new races. |
March 15, 2008 - 7:36am | Using that for an excuse to make every alien be humanoid is non-sensical in my eyes. I don't think anyone was suggesting every alien be humanoid. In my own posts above, I specifically state that departing from the human/humanoid norm is desired. I believe that it is more a matter of 'factors influencing design decisions' to make races be able to fit into the existing game framework (at least that is what I got from his post). Of course each individual race will need its own clothing considerations and minor changes other equipment standards, but being able to use the same aircars or fitting through hatches and the like, are somethings that are more easily solved by making certain qualities similar to the existing races. A race of 15 meter tall gigantic beings is not going to be of much in the game (as a racial option), but they might make for an interesting read or as an adversary race. If the idea is to have a race that integrates into the general campaign, certain choices become obvious. <insert witty comment here> |
March 15, 2008 - 7:50am | Vrusk often need unique vehicles and Osakar are here to stay. I'm still not seeing an obstacle. |
March 15, 2008 - 8:13am | If you want more non-humanoid aliens look to the Lensman series of books as the best examples. The Rigelians have 4 tenticle arms on a barrel shaped torso with 3 legs and a domed head. The Nevians are multi-legged salamander with eyes on stalks, the Plenthians are almost indescribable. And sure there's an economy for all the races of the frontier. Only the PCs were involved in military action against these velociraptors, all the while dealing in arms with their merchants. You see they had two groups or caste systems, the workers which were further divided into buisness groups that would sell to any one and trade with whoever they wanted. While the warrior caste was divided up into war clans and would hire their sevices as mercenaries out to whoever. If a pirate king has the money he could hire a fleet of these warriors that likely got their weapons from one of their own kind contracted velociraptor group, or might buy weapon from another supplier for the right price. This is what gave the PCs in my group such headaches. Approached by the alien velociraptor weapon dealers trying to sell them weapons like the very ones they were fighting against. "Would you like to buy a Voressium AA12 gyrojet rifle human? It has the same extra ammo capacity as those warriors carry, plus intergated LADAR sighting. A real bargain." In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 15, 2008 - 8:33am | Your post just helped my development of the Traders & Freighters Guidebook. I was just in the middle of researching economies when I came in to check posts. This is good stuff. :) |
March 15, 2008 - 9:22am | Glad to be of service in some way.  In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
 March 16, 2008 - 9:29am | Gunn, My opinion, most alien races are guys in suits simply as a point of reference. It makes us comfortable when the alien races we create look more like us. But...as Lennier would've put it,"we may look like you, but we are not you." You don't have to gift your alien race with a bizzare appearance to give them a truly alien mindset. After all, most alien races in science fiction are metaphors for issues and differences within our own race, and, quite frankly, even amongst humans of the same sub-race, there exists differences of opinion, culture, mores, etc, which make us alien to one another, to the point where they become excuses for oppression or grounds for violent contention. In short, you don't even have to have alien races to explore "alien" issues in SF literature, as the Dune, Honor Harrington, McClintock, Kris Longknife, Dorsai, Miles Vorsikgian, and countless other series have illustrated quite well. Even the best Star Trek novel ever written, Federation, demonstrates that the most alien of all races in the Universe is our own. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 March 16, 2008 - 1:05pm | wow - lots of posts about this. I have thought the same thing as the original post to be honest. I've always admired the creativity behind the Dralasite. Not so much the Vrusk: bug people aren't all that innovative really. The yazirian are cool and different even though they're basically ape men, though the added wingy things are a different touch... sorta flying squirrelmonkeymen. I guess. I agree. I'd love to see more alien submissions... please submit one! We have some illustrators who would undoubtedly enjoy the challenge! 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 16, 2008 - 3:13pm | Dear All: I am very excited my post has generated so many thoughtful and interesting responses. I have a couple of ideas in mind, I will be writing them up for submission in The StarFrontiersman. I would certainly need artistic assistance as my art skills are nill, unless you count poorly drawn stick figures, in which case I am at the level of a shivering 2 year old. Thanks! mRgUnN |
March 16, 2008 - 3:24pm | Glad to hear that I am not the only "artistically retarded" individual around these parts. <insert witty comment here> |
March 16, 2008 - 8:25pm | My artistic skills are limited, I tend to draw in an anime style which many people don't really care for.  In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 17, 2008 - 1:57am | Your proportions are great. If you could normallize the head of your characters a little, I think you could do really well and your contributions would be welcome. I always tell artists to trace comic books to learn how to draw lines that are giving them trouble. In your case, since you're accustomed to drawing in anime style, trace comic book faces to get normalized features down. Then practice the lines you learn, focusing on each body part, one at a time (e.g., eyes, ears, nose, etc.) until you master each one to a presentable degree. Comic tracing is actually how I mastered drawing the human form. It's also how I mastered drawing animal forms. In fact, tracing photos can do even more to make your style that much more realistic. |
March 17, 2008 - 11:04pm | My art capabilities are limited as well. I've done the illustrations for a few things I've put in the starfrontiersman (betcha can't identify which) and I do all that line-art of equipment and stuff. I've tried and tried, and just CAN'T seem to get a vrusk or yazirian to look good. I was thankful for Corjay and now for Shell as well. They are both excellent and seem able to produce artwork quickly. That image of Eric "the Mouse" Stromm was a request made at last minute, and Shell gave it to me next day! It really helped make that character more interesting... I'm eager to hear from Shadowshack, that character's author, about his opinions on it. Bottom line: if an article needs art (especially gear and races) then we'll come up with it somehow, or delay the publication of that article submission until we have the art. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 17, 2008 - 11:08pm | Page 52 of Issue 8 of the sfman shows two rifles... I should make it clear that these rifles, though illustrated by me, were based purely off a submitted drawing that looked nearly exactly like how they were printed. I don't take credit for the overal appearance of Chris Harper's rifles; I just effectively made a tracing of them (I wish it was that easy), for consistency-sake. The robotic steed on page 53 has been swimming around in my mind since watching Galaxy Rangers on YouTube with w00t a few months back... remember that, w00t? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
