 January 23, 2008 - 9:31am | To save space on some of my research ships I was thinking of adding grapples and mounts on both atomo shuttle craft and other space only craft. What are your thoughts about the following: Atmosphere capable shuttles - Cost of the mounts + adjoining airlocks (need them on the shuttle and main ship) Non-atmo shuttles - Cost of the mounts + adjoining airlocks (need them on the shuttle and main ship) What min / max requirements should there be? |
 February 3, 2008 - 8:19pm | You guys are funny. The hull of a space ship is not made of wet paper. Last I checked it was made out of a armored hull. A hull has 200 + 2d100 structural points per square meter. So, if you plan on using portable rockets or a big damage weapon it won't happen immediately. SO, in this case laser pistols or rifles could be used, also, gyro jets and auto weapons. I would bring in heavy weapons that would just cause to much damage to the hull at one time. However, in a limited use they would be handy in a tight spot. And as far as the pressure, here is the rule that states:
Most starships require all passengers to don spacesuits before a fight, and then depressurize the interior of the ship. This prevents violent decompression due to battle damage or boarding attempt. Yes, that's standard procedure. But a breech pod could have pressure and once they've cut or blown their way into a ship they can just let the flow of air carry a satchel of grenades into the ship before they go in themselves. And defenders are immobilized by either explosive or tangler grenades if you want some alive, there are many different aproaches on how to work this. Another thing to consider is if you're boarding for a rescue mission where to you attatch the breech ship? Do you want to try and take the bridge first or the engine room? You can now be selective on where you board a hostile ship. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
February 3, 2008 - 8:42pm | Another thing to consider is if you're boarding for a rescue mission where to you attatch the breech ship? Do you want to try and take the bridge first or the engine room? You can now be selective on where you board a hostile ship. You just sparked something in my positronic brain. An attacker would have to mimic the flight of it's prey. Perhaps breach pods have grapples with magnetic ends or hull-breaching depleted rounds? Roll a to-hit, if successful real in your catch. errrr, correction. Real yourself in ;-) Can you say, big fish off the port bow! |
 February 4, 2008 - 8:57am | The grapples are already there in the canon rules. If fact is says you have to have them if you want to catch a ship under power. The process is the same as you describe. You have to match the flight of the target for several turns (3 I think) and then you get a chance to fire them. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 February 4, 2008 - 9:19am | And, if I remember the grapple rules correctly, the grapples short out the grappled ship's electrics or something similar where the ship loses power. If not, then the grappling cables and ends could be made conductive, so that the ship being grappled loses electrical power...after that, reel 'em in(to an airlock in the nose, maybe) and send in the marines..... As for breaching pods, a HS 2 spaceframe should easily be able to hold 100 troops for a few minutes, as well as an airlock in the nose and a warbot or two with laser power torches. Not to mention optically-shielded wiring so some wiseacre doesn't flip on the defensive screens just as the breacher latches on.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
February 4, 2008 - 10:36am | The Trouble with Tribbles and the Issues with Grapples. MHS for grapples is 5 and takes up 60 cubic meters. -- So, can't be mounted on smaller ships. (lame?) Range is 200 meters thus the rules for matching speeds. Grapples are MPO weapons, so they can be fired only by the moving player. The following conditions also must be met:
Anyone have a house rule for tractor-beams? |
February 4, 2008 - 5:45pm | How about an assault ship as a HS 5 ship with grapples would fit the rules quite nicely. But I still see no reason why a smaller scale of grapples can't be made for small breech shuttles. The shuttle has to actually get right on the hull, a ship under power and manuvering can make that a very dangerous task. Risking a ramming doing that way. Before boarding any ship I would think it be best to disable it first. An assault ship differs from an assault transport. I got this idea from Legend of Galactic Heroes, they have these smaller assault ships that would ram a larger ship and board it. Ramming in SF is hazardous more for the ramming ship so an assault ship would be used more for grappleing large ships and space stations. Yeah, grapples restricted to a MHS 5 is kind of lame. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
February 4, 2008 - 9:56pm | Ramming in SF is hazardous more for the ramming ship so an assault ship would be used more for grappleing large ships and space stations What type of metal (in SF) could be mounted as a ramming point at the front of a ship that would allow it to breach the target hull? Or perhaps some type of lance weapon (reminds me of Honor Harrington).  Point penetrates hull enough to let marines out of hatches. |
February 4, 2008 - 10:30pm | As far as I know, a 360º Lancet arch-shape would be the best. There's a reason why missiles and rockets are shaped the way they are. |
February 4, 2008 - 11:18pm | As far as I know, a 360º Lancet arch-shape would be the best. There's a reason why missiles and rockets are shaped the way they are. I have not mastered that form of art in my drawing tool.  ...so I guess your on board that it's possible to penetrate a weak spot in the hull? /me goes for the windows on the bridge. 
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February 5, 2008 - 9:23am | Assuming of course, that the designer isn't smart enough to move the bridge to the center of the ship.... Instead of a ram, how about a spar with a shaped explosive charge at the tip, sort of like the Tweed Hull Breacher from the(otherwise excerable) Starfist military SF series? "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
February 5, 2008 - 1:33pm | As far as I know, a 360º Lancet arch-shape would be the best. There's a reason why missiles and rockets are shaped the way they are. I have not mastered that form of art in my drawing tool. ...so I guess your on board that it's possible to penetrate a weak spot in the hull? /me goes for the windows on the bridge.
I think the biggest problem for ramming ships and surviving is armor. |
 February 5, 2008 - 2:03pm | I think the biggest problem for ramming ships and surviving is armor. How about mounting a light laser canon that fires a couple of shots a few seconds befor the ram hits. The damage would only amount to 1-2 points, but it would be in the area that is bout to be hit. That could weaken the hull and decrease damage to the ramming ship. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
February 5, 2008 - 2:52pm | I think the biggest problem for ramming ships and surviving is armor. How about mounting a light laser canon that fires a couple of shots a few seconds befor the ram hits. The damage would only amount to 1-2 points, but it would be in the area that is bout to be hit. That could weaken the hull and decrease damage to the ramming ship. Good ideas. Would a reflective hull bounce the laser back at you? (or just dissipate the incoming energy) What effect would a masking screen have on smaller ships flying through one? |
February 5, 2008 - 3:50pm | I actually meant the armor of the ramming ship. Penetrating armor is the easy part. Retaining the integrity of your own ramming ship's hull is the trick. Think of it this way, a .05" diameter nail can penetrate a sheet of metal .1" thick. Why? Structural integrity. The nail is actually 1" long and can resist 2000psi of pressure along its length. The .1" think sheet of metal can only resist around 300psi of pressure at the point where the nail enters. Where does the nail get it's strength? from its length to diameter ratio. Note, too, that the nail uses a wedge tip, but also note that the tip is always dulled (damaged) by impact. |
February 5, 2008 - 3:52pm | By the way, you also have to consider the effect that ramming a ship with your own will have on your own crew. What happens when an unstoppable object meets an immovable object? You'll find out by seeing what happens to the soft flesh within both ships. |
February 5, 2008 - 4:01pm | By the way, you also have to consider the effect that ramming a ship with your own will have on your own crew. What happens when an unstoppable object meets an immovable object? You'll find out by seeing what happens to the soft flesh within both ships. I was taking it for granted that a ship that used the ramming techniques mentioned would have special provision to protect the marines during impact. I would think they would be in skiensuits and some type of armor or powered armor. |
February 5, 2008 - 4:11pm | That might be fine if they were only crashing at 100kph. But two ships crashing at 1000kph or more (Remember, moving 1 hex in KH is equal to 60,000kph) would be devestating to both ships inside and out. A ship would have to have a means of moving in quick and then slowing down fast and ramming relatively slowly (within 1000kph) for either ship to survive and much slower (within 200kph) for anyone aboard to survive on the ramming ship. |
February 5, 2008 - 7:06pm | Good ideas. Would a reflective hull bounce the laser back at you? (or just dissipate the incoming energy) What effect would a masking screen have on smaller ships flying through one? I was thinking (in game terms) that since the damage was so small and precise, that the RH wouldnt matter. Sounds dumb, but there wasnt much thought process behind the original idea... sorry mate. I was thinking of something that would damage the structural integrity of a localized area thus the actual hull damage would only be 1 or 2 points. As far as the impact, I was thinking 1 point per hull size of the ramming vessel. Corjay, I think that the ramming vessel would be a one time trip. Could be repaired later, but enough damage would occour on impact to either get it stuck, or make it unmanueverable. I cant recall the book, but there were shuttles that rammed the enemy, and a foam was shot out from locations on the hull that would then seal the shuttle into the breach. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
February 5, 2008 - 4:19pm | Well I was not suggesting to have a HS 5 ship ram anything as the rules normally have the ramming ship destroyed. Although if you want to think about it that way, any chair the crew is setting in could have an inertia screen fixed to it to reduce the effect on the crew. Of course this is provided you can figure out a way to keep the ramming ship from having a catastrophic structural failure. I was just bringing up an idea for a new class of ship, although I still think a smaller craft for boarding actions would be a more desireable thing to use. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
 February 5, 2008 - 4:31pm | There has been a lot of good input for this subject, and it makes me ask this: Why not have a dedicated project for boarding actions? This could either comprise of a stand-alone game in its own right, or a supplement for both KH/AD. I would love to kick this one off, but i'm too busy atm  |
February 5, 2008 - 4:49pm | I'm not sure it would need its own project altogether, but I wouldn't discourage anyone from doing it. I think there are plenty of projects that could use this information. Putting it in any one of them would be a good place for it. However, I suggest doing prime discussions in the Game Talk forum, as they generate more participation. |
February 5, 2008 - 5:50pm | elpotof, Corjay, et all IMHO, this would be a good subject for the The House Rules Wiki. I started a document here.  |
 February 6, 2008 - 3:00pm | I actually meant the armor of the ramming ship. Penetrating armor is the easy part. Retaining the integrity of your own ramming ship's hull is the trick. Think of it this way, a .05" diameter nail can penetrate a sheet of metal .1" thick. Why? Structural integrity. The nail is actually 1" long and can resist 2000psi of pressure along its length. The .1" think sheet of metal can only resist around 300psi of pressure at the point where the nail enters. Where does the nail get it's strength? from its length to diameter ratio. Note, too, that the nail uses a wedge tip, but also note that the tip is always dulled (damaged) by impact. I can vouch very differently on this issue. I have seen grass stuck into a telephone pole after a hurricane. It isn't the shape that counts, it's the speed of impact. AN aluminum nail will not penetrate steel, however a titanium nail would if you hit it hard enough. The ratio of length to diameter has very little to do with the penetration. If soft lead can go through a 1/2 inch steal plate it is the force from the speed a weight of the bullet. I don't want to bore you with the physics so I'll just leave it right here. |
February 6, 2008 - 4:28pm | I trust you on that. I've heard of many similar instances. Generally, though, the speed not only needs to be great in that instance, but you need to hit a bullseye without being able to see your target or know exctly where it's going to be at the end of the move. This is the problem I have with KH speeds and combat. I don't find them realistic at all. Sure, you can hit the same square as another ship is going to be in that turn, but that doesn't mean you're going to hit that ship, because within its square, its a needle in a haystack the size of a 2 story house. Could you expect to hit a moving target the size of a needle from a block away with a single shot from a needler pistol (with no air interference)? You would have a better chance destroying a ship by throwing a rock at it from 20 meters. Such high speed attempts would be prohibitive, so in my mind, we're left with speeds that would have a greater impact on the crew as I was referring to. Also, note that with your example, the grass was stopped. In stories I've heard, the pencil was stopped, the beam was stopped at the point of impaling, etc. Such quick stoppage would not only turn the crew into red ink blotches, but destroy the ship, because its infrastructure does not have the same durability of a blade of grass to withstand such an instant stop. Think about for every blade of grass that gets stuck in a telephone pole, there's hundreds of others that shredded or bounced off. EDIT: minor spelling correction. |
February 6, 2008 - 3:50pm | The best comparison I can make as why a ramming ship in SF is destroyed is that they're basically a pop can with thrusters. I know that's a simplistic descrption but it does fit. To reinforce the hull for such a tactic and survive you'd lose a lot of interior space, and I doubt inertia screens on the chairs could absorb the forces of the sudden stop for the crew. If you had inertia fields that powerful then ships could accelerate at unlimited thrust, it's be more like Inertialess drives from the Lensman books. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
February 6, 2008 - 4:21pm | Yeah, that's exactly the problem I see. |
February 9, 2008 - 8:36am | I trust you on that. I've heard of many similar instances. Generally, though, the speed not only needs to be great in that instance, but you need to hit a bullseye without being able to see your target or know exctly where it's going to be at the end of the move. This is the problem I have with KH speeds and combat. I don't find them realistic at all. Sure, you can hit the same square as another ship is going to be in that turn, but that doesn't mean you're going to hit that ship, because within its square, its a needle in a haystack the size of a 2 story house. Could you expect to hit a moving target the size of a needle from a block away with a single shot from a needler pistol (with no air interference)? You would have a better chance destroying a ship by throwing a rock at it from 20 meters. Wouldn't computer and electronic targeting systems allow for speed/size/distance? Also, would the speed of the firiing ship affect the former and latter variables? Such high speed attempts would be prohibitive, so in my mind, we're left with speeds that would have a greater impact on the crew as I was referring to. Also, note that with your example, the grass was stopped. In stories I've heard, the pencil was stopped, the beam was stopped at the point of impaling, etc. Such quick stoppage would not only turn the crew into red ink blotches, but destroy the ship, because its infrastructure does not have the same durability of a blade of grass to withstand such an instant stop. Think about for every blade of grass that gets stuck in a telephone pole, there's hundreds of others that shredded or bounced off. EDIT: minor spelling correction. So a ship which cuts or blasts an entry into the targeted ship(and brings its own airlock) would be more practical for boarding, with ramming saved for Reaver-type kamikaze attacks. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
February 9, 2008 - 8:55am | It kinda looks like a ramming style of boarding ship might not be feasible with "current" SF tech. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
February 9, 2008 - 5:14pm | Wouldn't computer and electronic targeting systems allow for speed/size/distance? Also, would the speed of the firiing ship affect the former and latter variables? That has been the claim to date, but it would take the same amount of calculations and variables as plotting an interstellar jump, if not more. Seeing as SF requires that such things be done manually and take a number of days, I find it incredibly inconsistent. I believe one day our tech will advance to an astounding state of accuracy, but at 180,000 km, I don't think it could ever get that accurate, especially since at that distance, even perfect sensors cannot accurately depict the position of a ship, because by the time the light gets to them (a couple seconds later), the ship will already be in a different position. Besides that, you can't know when the ship is going to change its vector. I mean, if you can sense them, then they can sense you AND your attempt at firing, giving them time to respond. Ultimate point being that battle at that distance is predictable for the defender and unpredictable for the attacker, making it extremely impractical. Just a little jinking and a ship becomes completely impossible to hit.EDIT: Minor spelling correction. |
February 9, 2008 - 5:05pm | I really don't know if I wanted to contributor to this anymore. But, here is something to think about. With all of the natural cosmic rays, X-ray, EMP, and solar flares in outer space I would not see your ECM or EMP pulse defenses working and if they are powerful enough to take out my missile then what about your fellows ships in the area. What is their situation is there shielding better. I would hope so because they would face the same fate. Then you have to take into mind the effect of back-wash into your own systems. It will deteriorate your systems as well maybe not all at once but eventually some damage will occur. And, if you put it into a beam and point it at my incoming missile there will still be a back-wash of the pulses. Even with PB, EB, and DC in mind these type of weapons do not cause any circuit damage unless directly on target. Therefore, I firmly believe that all things considered that and EMP or ECM defense would be out of the question even on the hull the defense screens would not cause damages as they would do the same the the emanating ship being at ground zero. Also, the new tech of counter stablizing energy. This is when you launch a harmonic to the primary to nullify the source or over power it thus possibly destroying it. Here's another thought, the more noise you make the more likely you are to attract other missiles, see rules on missiles against energy screens. And, I do conclude that any energy weapon deployment that is strong enough to take out an enemy weapon will have an adverse effect to the deploying vessel. So, now it is up-to the GM's out there to consider the results of offensive tech against the defensive tech. Just something to think about. |
