Ship Costs....

jaguar451's picture
jaguar451
December 27, 2007 - 12:48am

So, I'm looking at figuring out costs of ships, and a few questions:

 * Missiles & Computers: does it really state that for each ICM ($2,000) I need to buy a $12,000 program? And a computer? Or is this just for the launcher? Same Q for Seeker, Assault Rocket, Torpedo, ....

 * Hull Points: what do folks use for cost to increase above 5 HP per HS of 'standard' civilian ships? I see Shadow Shacks rules of each +1 HP per HS doubles the hull cost. 100,000 per HS for a hull with 6HP/HS, 200,000 per HS for 7HP/HS, and 400,000 per HS for 8HP/HS (different levels needed to get different 'canon' HP for ships -- Fighter has 8 HP/HS, Assault Scout 5, Light Cruiser 6....

 * Is it just me who thinks it odd that weapons are so cheap compared to the hull and engines? Anyone ever think about multiplying Weapon/Defense costs by 5 or 10 ?

 * Streamlining costs -- was this in the books anywhere? I've gone with 10% increase cost / space usage...


 * What am I forgetting to ask? ;-)






 

Comments:

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
December 27, 2007 - 1:51pm
KH Core wrote:
ICM Launcher 20,000 Cr
ICM 2,000 Cr

Defense
Program Level
Function Points
Cost 
Interceptor Missile 3 12 12,000Cr

Computer.
A computer is required on a spaceship to operate the engines properly, run the life  support system, make navigation calculations and operate weapons or other special systems. The cost of a computer will vary with the size of the ship and the number and complexity of programs  involved. (As with all computers, the cost of a program is 1,000 Credits x the number of function points it requires.)
So yes, you need to add the functions points of all the programs to build the ship and add up the cost.

Launcher, 10 ICM's, 12 Function Points and Computer costs 52,000Cr (I could not find the actual "computer" cost in the book)
------------
Hull Cost

At a Class I center, the size of the hull being purchased is multiplied by 50,000 Credits.
HS 3 = 150,000 and gives 15 HP, 5 HP for each HS.
1 Hull Point = 10,000 Cr at a Class I center.
-------------
Cost of weapons.

no comment.
---------------
Streamlining costs

Anything HS 5 or lower (I think) can enter an atmosphere and the ship don't cost anymore that I recall. An assault scout is already streamlined.




Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
December 27, 2007 - 3:05pm
On pg. 38 of the KH Remastered it says to refer to pg 46 AD (pg 65 Remastered)

COMPUTERS
A computer is a sophisticated electronic machine that can receive and analyze information. A computer works by running programs. Every program is available in six levels. The higher levels are more complex and able to handle more information. Each program requires a certain number of computer function points in order to operate. A function point is a measurement of a computer's ability to process information. Higherlevel programs have a higher function point requirement. The Computer Program list shows the number of function points a program needs. When a character buys a computer he actually is buying individual programs and the hardware needed to run them.

For example, when a character buys a level 1 Analysis program (1 function point), he gets not only the program, but also a computer circuit module that can process a 1-function point program. A computer's level is determined by totaling all the function point requirements of the various programs and finding this number on the Computer list. If more programs are added to the computer later, its level may be raised.

EXAMPLE: A small inter-stellar business run by "Slingshot'' Simmons buys a computer to keep track of its finances. Simmons buys a level 2 Analysis program (2 function points), a level 2 Commerce program (6 function points) and a level 1 Information Storage program (2 function points). The computer needs a total of 10 function points, making it a level 1 computer. It costs 10,000 Credits. If Simmons later adds a level 2 Robot Management program (4 function points), his computer has 14 function points, making it a level 2 computer.


Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 27, 2007 - 2:54pm

The computer costs the same as it does in the Alpha Dawn rules (see p.41, and p.46 for the definitions), you simply add in the KH programs as you would the AD ones. The only difference for a ship is the addition of a panel...oftentimes the main computer is not readily accessed on a ship (on smaller craft it's tucked away out of sight, larger craft in an adjacent room or such). Each panel costs 100Cr, so each major station would require one (pilot, astrogator, and engineer stations for example). If your bridge is large enough to warrant the computer, I usually allow the astrogator to skip the panel as he is the top computer operator and the main computer already has said panel so it would go in with the astrogator's equipment where applicable. In other words, you have your mainframe somewhere and a few panels scattered about wherever any crewmember may need to access the computer from.

Also note that I mandate a few of the AD programs for ship operation...Analysis to assist astrogator plotting (level equal to the astrogation program), Industry for the hydroponics & machine shop (LVL:1 is sufficient for any craft, it can also accomodate Cargo Arms without using the associated KH program), and Maintenance to coordinate upkeep on the ship (LVL equal to # of drives as Alarm & DCR programs).

Also a Communication (LVL:1) program would be used to coordinate an intercom network that has more than one master panel, a Transportation program @ LVL:1 for any lift shafts, and a Commerce program @ LVL:1 for passenger/cargo manifests. Any Installation Security program can handle Skin Sensors along with any other additional security devices. Computer Security programs are nice to have if the mainframe is accessible via its own room (meaning not stuffed away into a cramped fighter or assault scout hull), and Robot Management programs are nice if you want 'bots onboard (especially maintenance robots to assist with repairs/upkeep).

 * Missiles & Computers: I've been going with one program for all launchers, although I've been contemplating exactly how many missiles one launcher can hold/fire and adjusting to one program per launcher. Haven't really itroned that one out yet, but until then since the rules don't clarify it I parallel it to assault rockets and torpedoes: one program for all launchers works.

Of course the rules also state only one AR or T can be fired at a time...hence the idea for multiple ICM programs since you can fire multiple ICMs.

 * Hull Points: p.22 of the KH Campaign Book details a method for additional hull points, namely sacraficing ADF & MR points for additional HP (and vice versa, HP can be exchanged for more performance). Barring that I go by my house rules at construction time, although I'd have to say the KH rule is also a construction-only option as well, as you can't remove/add/reinforce both additional hull plating/armor and infrastructure after it's complete.

Energy Weapons are inexpensive, and since they use ship's internal power rather than an outside source (powerpacks etc) it's why they're so favorable. Since an Ion or Atomic drive produces lots of energy, you never have to worry about reloading or recharging, unlike an assault rocket that misses its target...you only have so many ARs at your disposal so you can't afford to miss, especially if your reloading ship or station is millions of kilometers away from the battle.

The Rocket Weapons on the other hand are pricy, and since there are no range diffusion/modifiers you do have a better chance at hitting your target. However most of them are MPO weapons (meaning you can only use them during your movement phase, and not defensively) and all of them can only be used one at a time regardless of how many are loaded/equipped (which I think is a retarded ruling for Rocket Batteries, since a separate program is required for each one). Also, most of them chew up a lot of space (you can almost fit two laser cannons in the same space required by a single torpedo launcher, and an unloaded RB takes up far more space than any energy battery).


Streamlining isn't really covered much, aside from the statements that Assault Scouts are the largest starship that can land and any system ship up to HS:5 can land as well. That to me is another paradox, why can a HS:5 system ship land, but by merely swapping the chemical drives it can't? Even if you want to discuss the semantics anmd ethics of atomic drives operating in a populated atmosphere, it should still be physically capable of doing so (after all, an Assault Scout has atomic drives...). Anyways I utilize the +10% for any ship up to HS:5 (and install secondary chem drives/software for larger starships to land), applying said 10% to the cost of the hull (be it armored or not)

I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jaguar451's picture
jaguar451
December 29, 2007 - 4:05am
"1 dbl suite, 7 dbl cabins, 2 quad cabins

Is a suite a first class cabin (space / cost), while the cabins are Journey class with different numbers of bunks?


Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 29, 2007 - 7:10am
Right, I simply use "suite" to describe a crew or officers accomodation. Like a First Class cabin, it too requires double life support for the occupants (meaning LS equipment for 4 to accomodate 2 First Class occupants). A double cabin would be akin to a Journey Class cabin intended for crew (utilizing the standard 1 for 1 LS equipment ruling), and a quad cabin would be little more than another pair of bunks or beds stuffed into a larger scale Journey Class floorplan but again for crewmembers (again utilizing the standard 1 for 1 LS expenditures).

It's just my way of distinguishing the crew quarters from the passenger accomodations on a spec sheet. 
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Will's picture
Will
January 24, 2008 - 10:22am
Shadow Shack wrote:

Streamlining isn't really covered much, aside from the statements that Assault Scouts are the largest starship that can land and any system ship up to HS:5 can land as well. That to me is another paradox, why can a HS:5 system ship land, but by merely swapping the chemical drives it can't? Even if you want to discuss the semantics anmd ethics of atomic drives operating in a populated atmosphere, it should still be physically capable of doing so (after all, an Assault Scout has atomic drives...). Anyways I utilize the +10% for any ship up to HS:5 (and install secondary chem drives/software for larger starships to land), applying said 10% to the cost of the hull (be it armored or not)



Another possibility is to make an non-chemical drive ship a trans-atmospheric vehicle, using jets(possibly a maneuver jet with thrust vectrals)or chemical rockets to boost itself to the upper atmosphere, where it can air launch itself into space using its space drives.

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
January 24, 2008 - 10:57am
Will wrote:
Shadow Shack wrote:
Streamlining isn't really covered much, aside from the statements that Assault Scouts are the largest starship that can land and any system ship up to HS:5 can land as well. That to me is another paradox, why can a HS:5 system ship land, but by merely swapping the chemical drives it can't? Even if you want to discuss the semantics anmd ethics of atomic drives operating in a populated atmosphere, it should still be physically capable of doing so (after all, an Assault Scout has atomic drives...). Anyways I utilize the +10% for any ship up to HS:5 (and install secondary chem drives/software for larger starships to land), applying said 10% to the cost of the hull (be it armored or not)


Another possibility is to make an non-chemical drive ship a trans-atmospheric vehicle, using jets(possibly a maneuver jet with thrust vectrals)or chemical rockets to boost itself to the upper atmosphere, where it can air launch itself into space using its space drives.

Reminds me of the Firefly ship.

jaguar451's picture
jaguar451
January 24, 2008 - 8:18pm
I miss Serenity / FireFly.....

Will's picture
Will
January 26, 2008 - 1:13pm
I didn't get into the series til I read the De Candido's novelization of Serenity. All in all, a good read.

I first came across the idea of TAVs in an obscure military sci-fi novel called The Torch of Honor. 

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation