 December 25, 2007 - 9:31pm | I brought this up in the Dreadnoughts discussion, but rather than go off on a tangent there I'll post it here. The Basic boardgame explains that a ship with multiple rocket batteries can only fire one in a combat turn, while any/all laser batteries can be fired inthe same turn. Between the two books there is a certain amount of contradiction. If each battery requires a separate program, then why can't two RBs fire simultansously? If any battery can be exchanged for a RB w/4 shots, how does that fit in with the arming civilian ship rules? Does that mean if you add a laser battery to a HS:6 freighter at no penalty, it can be later swapped for a four shot RB at the same no penalty versus designing the ship withthe RB that would induce a penalty? How is it a laser battery that occupies 25 cubic meters of space (according to the tables in the back of the Campaign Book) can be freely swapped with a 40 cubic meter Rocket Battery, and then add in four salvos at an additional 10 cubic meters each? Seems to me that a Laser Battery could be freely swapped for three laser batteries, that being the case... |
 January 27, 2008 - 4:09pm | Well if you have LBx3 it fairly easy to say you're going to get 3 shots with it. If RB get only 1 salvo a turn and there are no benifits to having multipule RB then a RB would seem to work more like a missile launcher on modern ships today. The rockets could be fired from tubes on the side of the ship and make only 1 course correction after launch towards the target, and then the warhead breaks open to send a number of individual warheads to the target. This might end up looking like a swarm of missiles fired in a typical anime series. It doesn't matter if it's called a rocket battery, the rockets must still have a very basic guidance system in them to keep them on target up to 40,000 km away. You're not going to hit anything if you're just firing unguided rockets at that distance, you might as well be trying to shoot down aircraft with rocks thrown from a trebuchet. A battleship only having 10 salvos does seem a little small. It's been a long time since we played it, but we always figured there should have always been room for larger ships to carry bigger payloads for RB. And we also figured some ships could carry reloads for RB, the smaller ships must dock to a tender to have torpedos and RB replenished. I blame this on the terms they used when writing KH, that and they treat the technology that would make starship combat possible like it's WWI or II level. No one uses unguided rockets on ships any more, why would SF ships be any different? In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
 January 27, 2008 - 4:51pm | Yes on military starships any battery can be exchanged for a RBx4. This is for military starships only (pg. 22 "Weapons and Defenses" of KH). If a civilian starship tried this, then go to pg 19 and do the math under "Limits". So, any battery can not be exchanged on civilians ships to RBx4 without recalculation for a possible penalty to that ship. Sergeant |
 January 27, 2008 - 5:04pm | I like to use RB totally different from anybody else. I use them as a broadside weapon. If my ship or ships get in range of you you get blasted with as many as I want. In my game these launchers are mounted on the surface and can be fired all at once, BOOM! Or, you can fire them one at a time. Anyway, as for guidance, it is only good for a range of 2 after that it's by the book. The max range on missile weapons in my games is indefinite. More if I get my house rules uploaded. Believe this, the missile weapons in my game are nothing to laugh at. |
January 27, 2008 - 5:26pm | Gil, this why I joined the rivival. Really! To see what other people are thinking with SF. I am starting to come around on a RBx4 as a boardsdie weapon , as you call it. It would a frigate (the smallest capitol ship), a real punch. Use this with a battleship or heavy cruiser--nice! Think of a destroyer armed with LC, LB, RBx4, RBx4, Tx2. I beleive you are starting to talk about a serious strick package. Correct me if I wrong on your though process. Sergeant |
January 27, 2008 - 8:48pm | Just think about the old sailing ships broadside canon blasts. Kinda brings in a little really old skool. I like the olden ships of sail. All you need is the initial MHS 5 to carry them no need to get two. The destroyer would look like this LC,LB,RBx4 Tx2. It would have 2 on each side. Any ship that gets that close to you deserves to get the junk blown out of it. You can only have 4 RB launchers on a battleship, KH rule that the max weapons is hull-size divided MHS is the max of this weapon the ship may have. In my combat mode ICMs are worthless to deter the attack. It can only destroy one cluster. I generally don't put them on larger ships for the reason they can carry much more efficient weapons systems. I allow torpedoes to be used in the same manner. These weapons can be fired at anytime as long as they are not destroyed. The RB has to be completely destroyed. I go with 4 salvos per 5 hull-sizes max salvos per ship.(hull surface space available) If there are any questions feel free to PM me or post here so everyone can see the progress. If you think this is cool, wait till you see the other weapons. To all: It would be nice if all would send or put a response on these discussions that you like the idea or not. It's called feedback. So, please make comments. In the long time SF has been around the conversation of is RB a good weapon or a blunder is a much debated issue amongst SF fans. |
January 28, 2008 - 6:29pm | Duh, just a thought of why two RB can't fire simultansously. Could it be the possiblity of the rockets hitting each other on their way towards the target? In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
January 28, 2008 - 6:45pm | They sure can fire at the same time. In this age setting firing sequences would prevent them from interfering with each other. Although, the timing will be just a few seconds between firings. In most cases a rocket barrage is in a very short series of shots even withthe most non-tech missiles. Just look at WWII missile batteries. They didn't have a firing computer to speak of just an analog firing sequencer clock mechanism. Hope this helped. |
 January 28, 2008 - 7:44pm | To all: It would be nice if all would send or put a response on these discussions that you like the idea or not. It's called feedback. So, please make comments. In the long time SF has been around the conversation of is RB a good weapon or a blunder is a much debated issue amongst SF fans. My thoughts from earlier still stand.... ;-) I can easily see RBs as being a type of VLS system, where the whole rack can be launched in a turn, although I tend to personally think of them as a launcher with x missiles, and can fire one missile per launcher per turn. And I like SS's house rules of a launcher turret for Assault Rockets on HS:5+ ships -- much more efficient than Torpedo's in terms of space used, although less damage. Instead of age of sail, WW-II for me.... And I don't like the canon build rules..... ;-) |
January 29, 2008 - 3:15pm | Turret with any missile is just dumb. Missiles can make at least one facing in flight. I might post my house rules that make all missile weapons very dangerous, which wasn't hard to do. You will be fretting the sound of someone pointing a torpedo at you. I like the age of sailing ships, the age of WWI, and the WWII. And, the levels of technologies to choose from reflect that without loosing the ferociousness of each weapon. I have made the weapons very versatile even a fighter can carry a torpedo, stick that in your smokin gun. |
January 29, 2008 - 6:10pm | I have made the weapons very versatile even a fighter can carry a torpedo, stick that in your smokin gun. So how does a 75 cubic meter torpedo launcher fit into a 31 cubic meter fighter hull (10m long x 2m diameter)? |
January 29, 2008 - 6:20pm | First of all all the fuel wouldn't be needed. And, in most cases the torpedo would be in a transport and loading case witch gets removed. That would reduce the size by at least 20 percent. Now use a HS 2 fighter and BOOM, you have fighter launch torpedoes. You'll see how it works when I post into th wiki. It is for the people that like fighter combat like in wing commander. |
January 30, 2008 - 12:19am | FWIW, Assault Rocket is not a missile and unguided per canon rules, so why in a turret. And I think a more reasonable size/power balance than a Torpedo. And in effect, filling the role of "torpedo" if think in terms of WW-II arms.... As for missiles, I keep swinging back and forth between liking missiles (more 'modern', used in lots of fiction / other games) and not liking them -- more to track, how to balance them, how fit into the build rules, maybe targetting systems to limit # in flight, if can have big anti-ship missiles, why not smaller anti-fighter missiles, and if a fighter can carry x # of anti-fighter missiles (as per the star frontiersman article), a frigate should be able to x times a lot of missiles, and what does this do to fighters in the game, ..... As for HS:2 carrying torpedo's, has the technical space if not the "MHS", but as a standard HS:2 "fighter" is almost 20 times the volume of a HS:1 fighter, and if the largest carrier can hold 10 HS:1 fighters, how many HS:2 fighters can it hold? (HS:2 is roughly the size of a WW-II e-boat -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Boat) Why I like things like HS:1.2 & 1.5 for more small craft variety.... But for missile examples in the game, like the Maxi-missile from KH:Int, or a seeker that can be launched instead of placed like a mine, and are allowed better targetting than 'closest ship'? |
January 30, 2008 - 12:29am | And sorry for contributing to the off-topicness of a thread..... For the RB, the way I read the rules, 1 launch per launcher per turn. Can have multiple launchers. RBx4 means one launcher, four missiles. If desired, could use something like RB(2)(8) for number of launchers / total missiles.... Their usefullnes is and will be debated from here to Zebulon. |
January 30, 2008 - 4:19pm | It should read 2 RBx4 for a multiple launch system in my rules. So, sd for the WWII weapons systems, i have set up a way to vary the tech level of the "missiles" including AR systems. And the romance of WWII warfare is to good to just let go into history. My RB do track targets and pull a point defense against fighters, in single salvo mode, and larger ships, in broadside mode. And torpedoes in HS 2 fighters will fit in an attach to hull mode release the launch like a rocket or missile and it tracks. This is after more than 10 years of play testing and incorporating more effective ways of delivery via tracking packages. I don't care for much of doing the HS 1.2- 1.5 or anything like it. It ends up making the math to fuunky to do as if wasn't already. I like the e-boat thingy and the idea of PT boats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_boat |
January 30, 2008 - 9:16pm | I like the e-boat thingy and the idea of PT boats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_boat Now how to replicate the smoke generator..... ;-) |
 January 31, 2008 - 7:09am | I like the e-boat thingy and the idea of PT boats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_boat Now how to replicate the smoke generator..... ;-) Masking screens.   ...just had a w00ty thought this fine morning. Anyone remember the rocket packs that shoot out of the shoulders of some of the Robotech mechas? That's my idea of rocket batteries. They shoot out by the dozens and blanket an area of space (hopefully when a ship crosses it). |
 January 31, 2008 - 7:39am | ...just had a w00ty thought this fine morning. Anyone remember the rocket packs that shoot out of the shoulders of some of the Robotech mechas? That's my idea of rocket batteries. They shoot out by the dozens and blanket an area of space (hopefully when a ship crosses it). Yup Yup!! Also, If you have played (the orginal) Battletech the mechs had missile racks that had up to 20 loaded. I push of a button would fire all 20, then you had another chart to roll on that would determine how many hit. That is what I think of from the RB description. And they had an internal magazine that would move the next set of rockets into place. But, the bigger the launcher, the fewer the reloads. Had to designate more internal tonnage/space to reloads. In the Robotech RPG you can decide how many missiles you want to fire from your pod Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
January 31, 2008 - 3:40pm | Now take that and put a bank fireing button that fires 5 at a time bang a beter Rocket battery system. |
January 31, 2008 - 8:36pm | Turret with any missile is just dumb. Missiles can make at least one facing in flight. I might post my house rules that make all missile weapons very dangerous, which wasn't hard to do. You will be fretting the sound of someone pointing a torpedo at you. I like the age of sailing ships, the age of WWI, and the WWII. And, the levels of technologies to choose from reflect that without loosing the ferociousness of each weapon. I have made the weapons very versatile even a fighter can carry a torpedo, stick that in your smokin gun. So you think RB fire as I do. They launch and fire thruster to get them going in the direction of the target. And Robotech/Macross isn't the only anime that has swarms of missiles, though it might have been the first. Although Gundam was out before Macross, Gundam wasn't too missile friendly of a series. Missiles didn't work to well with Minovsky particles all over the place scrambling their sensors. The anime Gall Force is heavy with missile swarms as well. No need for turrets as once launched the missiles just arc their way towards any target, then they fire out a group of smaller missiles once they're at close range. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
February 18, 2008 - 4:16pm | I do all of the missile weapons differently. The small cheap weapons are more balanced in my game than in the original SF. Theses new rules have been play tested for over 15 years in my games. With this in mind, a small ship such as a fighter can carry most of these weapons. An assault scout can carry all missile weapons. It is a extremely limited amount like one or two, three maybe. I have made have more tracking capabilities than the KH book gave them. The results are "just fun as hec"," this gives my frigate a punch to have to be aware of","WOW, I can put some weapons with some boom on my ship." Just a few from players that have used these weapons. I my games energy weapons don't grow on trees for civilian ship construction. |
 February 21, 2008 - 12:26pm | I just wanted to drop in a short comment here that we have not yet explored that I found out about the hard way during the online SW2 game: The -10 on the DAM table. Gergmaster was sending a stack of fighters against a militia Assault Scout in Kizk-Kar. His very first AR he fired, he hit, and then rolled an "18" on the DAM table, causing double damage! He then rolled a whopping 16, +4, for a total of 20, doubled to FORTY (40!) points of damage. That AR blasted the militia Assault Scout to a gazillion pieces. It also would have destroyed a fresh Frigate. And BTW, he had more than enough speed to close the extra hex range if it had been an RB... What if that had been a RB? It would have done 32 pts of damage - almost enough to destroy a fresh Frigate. That -10 on the DAM table is huge. It gives you a 20% chance of double damage per hit. You're not going to get that kind of whuppin' from a clutch of laser batteries... |
 March 20, 2008 - 6:57pm | Well, this has been hinted at, but it is worth saying again. Missiles are guided. Rockets are aimed. All missiles track their target (either autonomously with onboard sensors, or via outside guidance) and adjust for maneuvers made by the target. Rockets fly in a straight line (or a gravity curved trajectory on earth) that cannot be altered once they are fired. Target movement is accounted for by leading the target in just the same way as firing a beam or projectile weapon. They are dumb weapons (as opposed to smart weapons). Any maneuvering that is not accounted for at the time of firing will shake the weapon. The reason a rocket battery needs to be on a turret is to make it usable defensively. If it was in a fixed tube, then it's field of fire would be miniscule at any given moment. The turret would allow tracking of the maneuvering target (prior to launch)and a much larger field of fire without the need to maneuver the ship. If they were missiles there would still be a reason to mount them on turrets. If you are firing them defensively, and the target is behind or beside you, the missile would need several maneuvers just to get pointed at the target, thus requiring more fuel and a longer travel time to get there. Putting them in a turrret eliminates some of the maneuvering from the start allowing for a smaller fuel load to achieve the same range. I too always interpereted RBx4 as having 4 shots in your battery. I never thought about the conflicting nature of RBx4 and LBx4. Still I think that RBx4 RBx4 is the best solution for allowing multiple firings. I tried to make the super veritech fighter in SF one time. Boy was that a bad idea. I loaded it up with 50 plus assault rockets (since rocket batteries can't fire one shot at a time) and laid waste to entire fleets. I ended up significantly downsizing the weapons. As I think back on it now though, Veritechs fire Missile batteries. The weapons are guided, fire and forget, smart weapons. They have the distinct advantage that it is much harder to dodge half a dozen weapons than it is to dodge just a single weapon. So Veritechs don't really fit any of the paradigms from SF. |
March 24, 2008 - 4:13pm | Oghma, the problem is in the basic rules of SF, somewhat. I know what the difference is between a rocket and a missile and that's the problem. Both have a travel time and seeing as most rockets have a range of 4 hexes or roughly 40,000km it's going to take time for them to reach the target. But as real rockets are unguided do you really expect an unguided rocket to hit a target 10,000 to 40,000km away? You might as well try putting an unguided rocket on the moon from Earth, possible but not very easy. Now making it a manuvering target, impossible. As a result calling it a "rocket battery" must be error in terms. Rocket batteries must fire some kind of guided missile to hit a target manuvering, a simple guidance system but they will need one. This makes a term like missile battery more correct for what a rocket battery can do. You could further complicate the game and have counters for rockets, missiles and torpedoes as they travel towards a target at roughly 66km per second. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
March 24, 2008 - 4:54pm | I was watching a program the other day about old naval battles, and they were talking about the battle of the Enterprise and its sister ship on the way to Guadal Canal and one interviewee said basically "they would toss as much ordenance into the air as they could possible do at one time and hope to hit something." So this makes the idea of firing a bunch of rocket batteries at one time to try to hit the ship. It makes sense. But of course, you have to change the rule about how many can be fired, as discussed earlier. But this would be the way to not have to use guided missiles. The damage done would be fore a single rocket, not for the entire load, as it is likely that only 1 rocket would hit out of the barrage scattering across space. On that program, when they showed a shot demonstrating the statement, it really was just like a huge cauliflower scattering of ammunition going in every direction. Between 100 to 200 shells appeared to be in the air at any time. Crazy stuff. But I think that's about how it would look like trying to take down a ship that you don't know where they're going to be at any point within a 10 minute period. |
March 24, 2008 - 6:00pm | I think that is the basic idea there Corjay. That's why they have to be on a turret. The gunner, or gunnery computer try to predict the movement of the vessel and lead it to fire the rockets in it's path. The amount of damage reflects how many and how solidly the rockets hit. |
 March 26, 2008 - 1:26pm | My solution to the software limit was one shot per turn per program, to a max of launchers. One program, 5 batteries, one shot. 3 programs, 5 batteries, 3 shots 5 programs, 8 batteries, 5 shots. |
