 December 25, 2007 - 9:31pm | I brought this up in the Dreadnoughts discussion, but rather than go off on a tangent there I'll post it here. The Basic boardgame explains that a ship with multiple rocket batteries can only fire one in a combat turn, while any/all laser batteries can be fired inthe same turn. Between the two books there is a certain amount of contradiction. If each battery requires a separate program, then why can't two RBs fire simultansously? If any battery can be exchanged for a RB w/4 shots, how does that fit in with the arming civilian ship rules? Does that mean if you add a laser battery to a HS:6 freighter at no penalty, it can be later swapped for a four shot RB at the same no penalty versus designing the ship withthe RB that would induce a penalty? How is it a laser battery that occupies 25 cubic meters of space (according to the tables in the back of the Campaign Book) can be freely swapped with a 40 cubic meter Rocket Battery, and then add in four salvos at an additional 10 cubic meters each? Seems to me that a Laser Battery could be freely swapped for three laser batteries, that being the case... |
 December 25, 2007 - 9:42pm | I think it had to do with keeping the rules simple. First, an RB program deals with multiple rocket launches, while singular RL's is one at a time. Also, a size 1 fighter would only be able to launch one at a time, so instead of making a rule dividing fighters from larger ships, they just make it a blanket rule. Rules in an RPG aren't really for staunch adherance. They're guidelines. I try to stick as close as I can to the original rules when rewriting the materials, but that doesn't mean that I won't do my own thing where I think necessary if I were to Referee my own game. |
 December 25, 2007 - 9:53pm | Can of worms... ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) From 'Frontiers of Design', the Battery is seperate from the Ammo. A battery (plus Torpedo Tube) can hold a round. So, could purchase multiple batteries with multiple rounds.... As for why it was created the way it was, I know not.... Maybe everyone used a lot of Masking Screens during play testing, and needed something shorter range than an AR to keep fighters effective? I'd just got rid of the RB, and instead allow all ships to have ARs in Turrets, similar to someone's house rules.... ;-) I think of ARs as a light-weight torpedo equivalent, that has a better balance of size vs punch, with a better range than the RB. As for the build rules in general, trying to use MHS to cover MASS, VOLUME, and POWER requirements with one generic value is, intersting. Add in that the majority of a ships MASS / M3 is filled with 'other', and I believe this is one of the reasons why KH:V is designed the way it is.... (although I'm not looking for a debate on KH:V or personalities in KH ship design...) And why I've been playing with something closer to canon (although still quite different) trying to make (consistent) rules to create more WW-II style diffs between ship class (which I know lots of folks will hate.) But so does everyone, it seems... ;-) |
December 25, 2007 - 9:58pm | See, I have no problem with singular assault rocket or torpedo launches. Those weapons are more effective than the rocket battery (greater range, greater damage). The RB simply has way too many restrictions to allow only one out of eight to fire... an RB program deals with multiple rocket launches Which is why the RB program is a LVL:2/6FP program versus the laser battery's LVL:1/4FP program. Still, if you need eight programs for eight batteries, why can't all eight fire simultaneously? |
December 25, 2007 - 10:05pm | I would treat the above as a documentation bug -- only one program per launcher. |
December 25, 2007 - 10:11pm | or treat it like a VLS system, and fire as many as you want... ;-) |
December 25, 2007 - 10:16pm | That's the allowance I have in my game. One program per battery, fire as many as you want. After all, why put yourself close enough to another ship (3 hexes) for the sole purpose of using just one rocket battery (in addition to any other weapon systems of course)...when said target will be returning fire with any/all energy weapons at a close range. |
December 26, 2007 - 12:51pm | Any [laser or proton] battery can be exchanged for a rocket battery with four shots. How many rockets can a rocket battery hold?...A standard rocket battery holds 24 rockets Note that the second question asks how many rockets the rocket battery can hold, not how many it can fire at one time. The top one refers to 4 shots. This either refers to how many times it can fire, or else how many rockets it can fire at once, or the amount of ammo. Well, assuming the book gives us how many times the battery can be fired and assuming the damage from a single rocket isn't as weak as 1/12th of 1d10, I think we should take the top one to be allowing you 4 arrays and therefore 6 rockets per salvo. Though it could be 4 rockets and 6 salvos. Assuming the book gave us the number of times it can fire, and that it is similar to modern batteries (6-12), it looks like this: Rockets Held: 24 Rockets per Array: 6 #Arrays: 4 Rocket Damage: 1d10/3 But you can still take it as meaning that a single array is 24 rockets. So that would look like: Rockets per Array: 24 #Arrays: 4 (96 rockets) Rocket Damage: 1d10/12 |
December 26, 2007 - 2:41pm | Any [laser or proton] battery can be exchanged for a rocket battery with four shots. How many rockets can a rocket battery hold?...A standard rocket battery holds 24 rockets (I presume that second one is one of the Star Questions from Dragon magazine) I would also interpret that as four sets of six rockets. With the standard warship allotment of 4 to 10 rocket batteries, that's a lot of wasted space for a weapon that you can only fire one at a time...(I really do have a hang up on that ruling LOL). In essence, a frigate with four batteries has 16 six rocket salvos but may only fire one of them during the attack phase of each combat turn. That being the case, you really only need one gunner...once a battery has depleted its magazine the gunner simply moves over to the next available gun during the next ten minute game turn. Another inconsistency in the rules...the inside back cover of the Tac Manual depicts a spread sheet for a light cruiser. The RB has six boxes to check off, one for each of its six rocket batteries, indicating that each battery has only one shot. Yep, with this many inconsistencies in the rules themselves, I'm definitely sticking to my "fire as many as you want during your attack phase" ruling.  P.S. Corjay, Gilbert, and I hashed out a revised "Smart Rocket Battery" in chat last night. Still needs some tweaking, but here it is: SRB: a standard rocket battery that utilizes guidance systems in the rockets, similar to the hardware used in a torpedo. The weapon system itself remains unchanged, however the SRB salvo increases in price (as yet determined, I propose 10,000Cr). Also, a new software package is required to guide the rockets after launch, the SRB program is a level 3 / 12 function point program. Base chance to hit is 60% (plus operator skill bonus), increased to 75% for targets with an activated stasis screen. Damage is 1d10+10. All other modifiers/restrictions remain the same (range, ICM adjustments to hit roll, etc). |
December 26, 2007 - 4:01pm | Definitely does back more of a punch now if one gets in range.... |
December 26, 2007 - 4:58pm | Increasing range was discussed, but if you increase the range, you would have to either reduce the yield, or increase the size of the rocket. Also, since the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, we must assume that guided rockets consume more fuel because they curve and make constant adjustments to their direction. Since neither lower yield nor a larger rocket is palatable, we assume a balance is struck that allows the rocket to fly just enough farther to make up the distance lost through guidance. Other than that, there's nothing we can do to improve distance. Rockets are much smaller than assault rockets and therefore don't go as far. |
December 26, 2007 - 6:17pm | http://starfrontiers.us/node/1443 SRB has been uploaded into my House Rules Wiki, with credit given to Corjay & Gilbert for their advice & help (thanks guys!) Definitely does back more of a punch now if one gets in range.... Yep, had to make it advantageous in some regard. As an aside, I fudged in my initial comments about the RB being a MPO weapon, it's not (I just looked it up today while refreshing my memory about something else). No idea where I got that one from, but suffice to say it's been a while since I've fired a rocket battery in my games so some of the definition was lost LOL With this new twist, I'll be utilizing them again and soon. Just wondering, was there any discussion of increasing the range / replacing by your AR battery (Warhead Launcher or something, I forget the exact name.) No, the Warhead Turret is my house rule. Last night's chat was relating to canon expansions, which...technically can still be house rules. The RB revamp was the hot topic, although it began with dreadnoughts the RB somehow became the focal point. Price somewhere between an AR and a T seems reasonable (I assume that's where the above cost came from?) I don't remember AR price off hand, T is 20,000cr if I remember correctly.... Right you are! The torpedo (projectile, not launcher) is a $20K item, an AR is $10K, the standard RB slavo is a $5K each (substitute Frontier Credits for "$"). $10K just seemed to be a nice middle ground for a guided RB cost, along with the increased price of the software it's still basically the same system but more attractive to use now. After all, there has to be some reason why it became the dominant weapon for warships. |
December 26, 2007 - 6:33pm | Quite interesting.... Not having play tested, I'd still probably equip 'Warhead Launcher Turret (WT)' with Striker Missiles for the range. Although with the WT being MPO and the SRB not, it makes it a closer decision only answerable with playtesting.... |
December 26, 2007 - 6:33pm | PS $12K, as more DMG and not MPO vs the +1 range of the AR vs SRB, so I think a little more valuable.... And your striker missiles are cheap -- 50% more range, 1/2 the space, & 1/2 the DMG of an AR, for 1/4 the price.... Seems like a $10k ($5k?) system, trading warhead size for fuel. Put two launchers on a fighter, and do the same DMG a run, but outside Torpedo range. Ouch. With more reloads.... Sorry to change the subject |
December 27, 2007 - 12:16am | Just caught a typo on that description (Striker Missiles)...it should read 5000Cr each for missiles. I essentially wanted "half of an aassault rocket" when drumming up the idea, with the perk being longer range. |
December 27, 2007 - 12:50am | I had also thought about a AR:LR -- Long Lance torpedo. Seems quite handy.... |
 December 27, 2007 - 8:12pm | I never liked the rules for rocket batteries from the start and never for once thought of replacing any beam battery with one. Rarely in any games did ships get in close enough to use them in the first place, most ships relied mostly on foreward guns on enemy ships and used all batteries as secondary weapons. Laser batteries were used as more of an anti-fighter role because of how many can be placed on a ship. Rocket batteries we questioned their usefulness. The better result we thought of but never implemented was to turn the rockets into low yield seeking missiles for anti-fighter use. Basically it becomes a bigger ICM for use against fighters instead of seekers or torpedos. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
 January 15, 2008 - 5:49pm | Ah tactics gentlemen - think tactics... I go with the book on this one, and I want to just to playtest it and see. I see that many of you have valid points, and also valid suggestions. I think some playtesting is in order. That's why I started a KH PBEM Campaign Game. I will answer the "one at a time" argument - it's simply a matter of available tubes. Rocket Batteries put off a huge salvo of little missiles. So you can't think of those RB (x4) as just four racks of missiles. It's hundreds of small missiles. The "shot" is the maximum number of these small missiles that can be fired in the time alloted - which is what, 10 minutes or something? Who knows... Plus not all tubes on the ship can fire at the same time, unless you have enemies all around you. But that would dilute your fire... The space issue is valid as mentioned. The game is often hard to fit 100% into reality. Things have to be bent from time to time. Anyway, it is what it is. I think they threw it in there for play balance more than anything else. You can drive yourself nuts trying to deal with all of the inconsistencies in the rules, but I am still eager to play them out and see what exactly happens. That ship-room situation is a classic example of how one hand was not watching the other as they wrote the rules. Maybe laser batteries are much more useful and space-efficient... I'm eager to play out the rules old school with a full on war. The only thing that I really had to change was the boardgame Risk Jumping rule, which I thought was way too harsh. |
January 15, 2008 - 6:42pm | I will answer the "one at a time" argument - it's simply a matter of available tubes. Rocket Batteries put off a huge salvo of little missiles. So you can't think of those RB (x4) as just four racks of missiles. It's hundreds of small missiles. The "shot" is the maximum number of these small missiles that can be fired in the time alloted - which is what, 10 minutes or something? Who knows... I'd have to look it up again, but I believe the TAC manual states that it's 6 or 8 tubes in a rocket battery, hence it's 6 or 8 launchers firing simultaneously per battery. If the stats say "RB (x4)" then I have to presume it means the same thing as the coinciding AR (x4) or LB (x4), meaning four different weapon systems, re: four different clusters of rocket launchers. I have no problem with firing one assault rocket at a time as the KH campaign book states only one program is needed, hence only one weapon can be fired. However, a battery weapon needs a separate program for each system, hence four laser batteries call for four programs, and they can all be fired simultaneously. If four RB programs are needed for four RB systems, I fail to comprehend why only one rocket battery can be fired at a time while the other three batteries sit by idly. That being the case, if all four guns were on the same deck you could achieve the same effect with just one operator who jumps from gun to gun as they are discharged. In other words, you wouldn't need four separate rocket gunners if they are required to "take turns" firing their weapons. |
January 15, 2008 - 7:17pm | Hey I hear ya. Like I said, I think it was put in there more for play balance rather than anything else. Maybe they playtested it and found that whamming people with 4+ RBs per shot (which is what I would do to any target Frigate-sized or higher) was too devastating. I hear you too on the computer thing. I did not know that. In any case, if you want, just lower the computer requirement to 1. That's not really an issue in the board game, but for the RPG I think 4 separate computers for 4 RBs is ridiculous and should be changed. But in terms of their effects in KH combat, I would like to test them as is. |
January 16, 2008 - 11:43pm | Well I do have to admit, if a ship gets within range unloading all rocket batteries does tend to conserve your torpedoes for future targets...on the other hand replacing 40 cubic meter RB ystems with 25 cubic meter LB sytems brings you right back to the same predicament, and the range becomes a moot point. Even if you go by the canon MHS determinations, it's more practical to load up on LBs than RBs since a RB is MHS:5 and a LB is MHS:3...two RBs is a factor of 10 versus three LBs at 9 when determining the allocations. Simply put, there are way too many penalties applied to a RB system as written, never mind the conflicts. |
January 17, 2008 - 8:45am | Seems like RB's could be used to target incoming torpedoes... (Anti Missle - Missle system) in fact why can't fighters and assault scouts target incoming torpedoes? |
January 17, 2008 - 4:26pm | Since they can fire defensively (albeit one at a time) technically they could be used as anti-missile weapons against torpedoes. Canon makes no mention of this though. I certainly would not be opposed to such use, although a different hit determination may have to be considered as an incoming torpedo is smaller than a ship ---(20 cubic meters versus 31 cubic meters for a HS:1 craft...assault rockets are 10 cubic meters and seekers are 40 cubic meters. Thus an assault rocket or torpedo would be tougher to hit due to the smaller sizes of each but a seeker missile would be in the normal scope of hit determination. As for fighters and assault scouts, an assault rocket is a MPO (Moving Player Only) weapon and as such could not be used defensively. Even if it were defensive, it's still a forward firing weapon and would only be effective against frontal attacks. |
January 17, 2008 - 5:19pm | I suggested the better use of a rocket battery would be to make it into a anti-fighter missile, it basically becomes a larger ICM. Which ICMs seem to have no problems finding small torpedos and seeker missiles, so why would a fighter be any different? The damage of a RB anti-fighter should probably be reduced from 2d10 to 1d10 as the missile is set to seek and hit a small and fast target, rather than hitting a larger target and doing reasonable damage. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
 January 25, 2008 - 6:46pm | I have always played if your ship had the following weapons (LC, LB, RBx4, and Tx2) you could fire your LC once, LB once, RB once, and your T once. This is due to having one RB launcher and one T launcher on that ship. The limitation on amount of ammunition carried is depicted by the number. My brother once decided to remove his LB in place of a second RB. New weapons count (LC, RBx4, RBx4, and Tx2). This allowed for two RB launchers to fire a turn. Each launcher with a load of 4 rockets. Yes it took up space on the ship and seriously crippled his stand off capability, but that is what he wanted. Allowed and then DESTROYED  . Page 18 of KH states the cost and hull size requirement for one assault rocket launcher and the rocket itself. Also stated is the same for one rocket battery array (one rocket launcher) and rocket itself. And the list goes on with torpedeos and seeker missiles. I do not see how one RB array could fire 4 or more missiles a turn. Sergeant |
January 25, 2008 - 7:42pm | My experience with KH has not been extensive, but I would not fret all that much about the RB's limited range. Manuvering in and out of its range, especially considering defensive fire, is quite difficult, especially in a battle going at higher speeds (say, over 5 hexes/turn). You can control your own ship (maybe) but what about the speed of your enemy? At a glance, it may seem easy to "stand off" at 4 hexes and launch Assault Rockets and torps but with the defensive fire I have found this to be nigh impossible - especially with the ARs, which are forward firing. Therefore, by definition you basically HAVE to close within RB range on an Assault Rocket run. The only reliable way to stay away from Rocket Batteries, in my (limited) experience has been to blast away with beam weapons from range. Of course, then you suffer from Range Diffusion, and it is tough to hit. Perhaps they are the weakest weapon in the game, but I don't think that they are useless. At least ICMs don't stop them like they stop torps. Plus the fact that they fire defensively whereas the other missile weapons do not... I'm not quite ready to give up on Rocket Batteries yet, as they are written in the rules. They will come into play soon enough for all of us to see. All this being said, I do think that the space and computer restrictions on them are rather harsh and should be modified. But that stuff does not come into play in the wargame, so, in my view, it is not that critical of a problem. For the RPG, I think a ref would be wise to tone down some of the space and computer requirements of Rocket Batteries. That would be reasonable. |
January 26, 2008 - 5:20am | ICMs seem to have no problems finding small torpedos and seeker missiles, so why would a fighter be any different? The ICM is a guided missile, it has a guidance/analysis program to assist it in finding that incoming smaller target. The RB is a free-flight weapon, the software for the weapon system merely operates the battery much like a laser battery would: point and shoot. I have always played if your ship had the following weapons (LC, LB, RBx4, and Tx2) you could fire your LC once, LB once, RB once, and your T once. This is due to having one RB launcher and one T launcher on that ship. Again, that's subject to interpretation. It's still a toss-up between number of launchers versus number of shots. Between both books it's pretty vague as to which it is. The "LC, LB, RBx4, and Tx2" ship you describe is a frigate. Add a few more torpedoes, RB salvos, and a few seeker missiles and you have a battleship. That extra 500 meters of length and 80 meters of girth only allows for a few more shots? I just hve a hard time digesting that a battleship and a frigate both have only one weapon system (RB) and the huge difference in size is one can fire more shots. On that same note... RBx4 and LBx4 take on two completely different meanings. Going by the "one battery/four shots" principle, the stats for LBx4 would mean one laser battery that can be fired four times. I do not see how one RB array could fire 4 or more missiles a turn. The rocket battery consists of one turret type weapon sporting multiple launchers (6 or 8, I have trouble remembering which). Hence when you fire it, all tubes fire simultaneously...as the TAC manual states it fires a cluster of small rockets. In essence it's sort of like a shotgun, you pull one trigger and a bunch of projectiles shoot out. Or closer to the description, think of it as six rifle barrels connected to a common trigger...pull the trigger and six bullets shoot out. Manuvering in and out of its range, especially considering defensive fire, is quite difficult, especially in a battle going at higher speeds (say, over 5 hexes/turn). You can control your own ship (maybe) but what about the speed of your enemy? Any ship that can get within range to use an RB exposes itself to the other ship's RB system. Not to mention any beam weapons that will be easier to hit, it becomes a mexican stand-off. Ideally you would want to get into a position ont he offensive phase where you can avoid the other craft's weapons or as many as possible and utilize as many of your own as is possible. That way you can control the enemy's speed...it becomes a drifting hulk if all goes well. Of course ideal doesn't always work, and should the ship survive your onslaught it moves into a position where it can return the favor. At a glance, it may seem easy to "stand off" at 4 hexes and launch Assault Rockets and torps but with the defensive fire I have found this to be nigh impossible - especially with the ARs, which are forward firing. Therefore, by definition you basically HAVE to close within RB range on an Assault Rocket run. The only reliable way to stay away from Rocket Batteries, in my (limited) experience has been to blast away with beam weapons from range. Of course, then you suffer from Range Diffusion, and it is tough to hit. Actually, an AR can hit just as easily from 4 hexes out as it can at point blank range. Moeso if you get into a head-on shot to achieve the extra +10 bonus. The AR is an MPO weapon so it can't be used defensively, even if the target is in the FF range. This is what makes an assault scout into the desirable weapon it is: it can inflict heavy damage with rockets and return fire at any target with the laser battery. Slip one or two in behind a frigate or destroyer at 4 hexes out during the offensive phase, if both rockets hit there's going to be some serious wounds inflicted (don't forget about that AR's juicy -20 damage table modifier that allows for double damage). Then the laser batteries can mop up with a mere -20 modifier due to the range diffusion (countered by the gunner skill level). Of course the down side is it doesn't take too much to wipe out an assault scout either. On that same token, maneuver a squadron of six fighters behind a heavy cruiser at the same range and they'll do some admirable work too. At least ICMs don't stop them like they stop torps. It's tough for one missile to stop a batch of incoming targets...it can only hit one. Hence the minor deduction. I agree about not giving up on them, if anyone wanders within range by all means use it. Still, for practical reasons I'd simply prefer a beam weapon given the choice. After all, even if you stick strictly to canon rules the MHS system simply permits the LB over the RB on a civilian craft. And if the civilian craft runs out of RB ammo in deep space...any performance penalties accrued by the larger MHS system will ensure the craft will not get away. |
January 26, 2008 - 10:52am | Good point on the RB containing more then one launcher Shadow Shack. I am not changing my stance on the RB firing more then once per turn, but I would like to restated my thinking after rereading the KH and TAC MAN. Yes, this my interpretation and I hope it explains the though process of my brother and I when we started playing. TAC MAN states that RB is a cluster of small rockets launchers that fire rockets that are much smaller than assualt rockets but do almost as much damage because many rockets are fired together. Many smaller rockets that together cause 2d10 damage. KH states min HS and cost for rocket battery array (the launcher package) and the rocket salvo (one cluster of rockets). This one cluster is one shot and costs 1000 CR. To totally rearm a frigate of rocket salvos--RBx4--would cost 4000CR. Also, the reason why ICM have only a -3% deduction to be hit with a rocket battery salvo is the small cluster of incoming missiles vs. the one intercepter missile sent out to defend. An assualt rocket is one missile fired and is easier to defend. Smae with torpedos and seeker missiles. If a RBx4 can fire all 4 of its salvos in one turn, you would be causing 8d10 damage. A small frigate MPO could position on a battleship and attack doing 15d10 damage and destroy it in one turn. Sergeant |
January 26, 2008 - 2:48pm | Also, the reason why ICM have only a -3% deduction to be hit with a rocket battery salvo is the small cluster of incoming missiles vs. the one intercepter missile sent out to defend. An assualt rocket is one missile fired and is easier to defend. Exactly, that's what I was touching on in the prior post. One on one for an assault rocket, seeker, or torpedo versus one against many for a RB salvo. If a RBx4 can fire all 4 of its salvos in one turn, you would be causing 8d10 damage. Right, I have no problem with that either. My beef is the actual translation about the number of RB systems on the ship. If RBx4 is to be interpreted as one battery with 4 shots then I'm good with that. But like I said earlier, how do you distinguish between that and LBx4 in the same description? Does the battleship's RBx10 mean one battery with ten shots or is it ten separate weapon systems, just like the same description that says LBx3 meaning three laser batteries or is it one LB with three shots? The specs become contradictive if you go one way with one system and the other for the rest. Your interpretation says one weapon with X amount of ammo, mine says it's X amount of weapon systems with one shot each. What I'm ultimately getting at is the definition of "RB times X", as the ruleset is too vague on exactly what that means. Like I said about the size differences between the frigate and battleship, are we to believe that with all the extra space to work with inthe battleship the single RB weapon system can hold only six more salvos (along with the few additional torpedoes, energy weapons, and seekers)? Certainly not if you take the actual alloted space into consideration (cubic meters, as defined in the back page of the campaign book)...the battleship is severely undergunned if you take those ratios into consideration for a one RB system definition. |
 January 26, 2008 - 3:09pm | If LBx3 means 3 each LB or 1 LB with 3 shots and the RBx4 means 4 RB with one shot each or 1 RB with 4 shots is up-to you. There is no need for the discussion on it because if you read throughout the books you find out that LBx3 means 3 LB and RBx4 means 1 RB and 4 shots. |
January 27, 2008 - 3:27pm | There is no need for the discussion on it because if you read throughout the books you find out that LBx3 means 3 LB and RBx4 means 1 RB and 4 shots. I just skimmed the books so forgive me if I missed it, but I couldn't find the "RBx4 means 1 RB and 4 shots" part. Which still brings me back to the question in my first post: if you have more than one battery (with four shots each) why can you only fire one at a time? (re: exchange rules, any beam weapon battery can be swapped out for a RB, so it's a very possible scenario) Ergo if a ship has four Rocket Batteries and can only fire one of them at a time, why would you need to staff it with four rocket gunners when the gunner can just simply go to the next gun after the first one runs out? If you have four gunners, how do you determine which one gets to fire each round? The quickest to the firing button? Pick one while the other three simply twiddle their thumbs? |
