 December 20, 2007 - 9:17am | Refer to Content of The House Rules Wiki project Multiple AstrogatorsUsing the standard plot time rule, a single astrogator can only work ten hours and take ten hours off between shifts (rest etc). Incorporating a second astrogator will allow the plot time to be cut nearly in half, as one works while the other rests. A third astrogator can cut this time down even further. T is total plot time in GST hours L is the number of light years to be travelled A is the number of astrogators working together Thus, an 8LY jump that would normally require 80 hours of time (not including downtime) for a single astrogator could be plotted by three astrogators in only 43 hours total time. What is the background in STAR FRONTIERS that it takes so long to calc a jump? Is it to provide suspense? Extra time for adventure? The other extreme is the Nav Computer on the Falcon that took seconds to minutes. -w00ty minds want to know. |
December 20, 2007 - 9:37am | Yeah, I don't get it either. You would think they would have computers to take care of all that automatically. The idea is that the astrogator has to take all the measurements, figure in angles, compensate for avoiding hazards on the way, angling, reangling, and all the math in between. Apparently the computer does nothing more than act like a calculator and then carry out the inputed command. Computers today are far more efficient and capable. You also have to remember, that back then, no one believed computers the size of a PDA would have all the processing power of the most complex computers back then that filled up a whole room. Personally, I'd dump the calculation time and assume the computer takes care of it, but the astrogator still needs to be capable enough to handle the calculations their self. If the astrogator's computer is messed up, then and only then, does it take the time suggested. |
 December 20, 2007 - 3:58pm | We use an automatic jump network in the normal space lanes. Anything outside of there has to calculated by man and machine. The man part is for those people who just want someone to be there. |
 December 21, 2007 - 9:32am | It is all relative to how the GM wants the campaign to feel. I suspect the SF rules were trying to make sure that interstellar travel didn't become a simple, routine, and unexciting event. |
December 21, 2007 - 1:44pm | Good point Sam. :-) That makes sense. |
 January 2, 2008 - 9:12pm | It's even odder when the description for the Level 6 Analysis program says it is capable of handling virtually all calculations, including theoretical math. Granted, most ships wouldn't have access to such a high level program, but you'd think there would be a provision for a program being able to handle the jump calcuations. "Rome didn't build an empire by having meetings. They did it by killing those who stood in their way." |
January 3, 2008 - 10:21am | It's even odder when the description for the Level 6 Analysis program says it is capable of handling virtually all calculations, including theoretical math. Granted, most ships wouldn't have access to such a high level program, but you'd think there would be a provision for a program being able to handle the jump calcuations. What about something every two Computer levels? And maybe throw in something for the Astrogator level....
If a jump is made along one of the established travel routes marked on the Frontier Sector map, and the astrogator spends 10 hours per light-year making the proper course adjustments, there is no risk that the ship will leave the Void anywhere other than its planned destination. I wonder why it takes so long for "established" routes....  What if your monorail took this long to calculate where you wanted to go in the city? LOL. |
January 3, 2008 - 12:49pm | This brings us back to the whole inconsistancy with the jump descriptions of the game. KH describes Jump as occuring when the vessel reaches 0.01c, but the time in "jump-space" is only a few seconds. By that description alone, barring any navigational issues within individual systems, every jump would take the same amount of time, regardless of how far you are traveling. Instead of attempting a revision of this, it appears the KH designers developed the Astrogator calculations as a method of slowing down jumps -- an ineffective attempt to bring jumps back to the 1 day per light year concept per AD rules. This becomes clearer when you look at the description of Risk Jumping in the KH boardgame (SW II) -- that is the method of moving quicker through the transit boxes -- essentially spelling out quite clearly that it is the calculation side of the jump that dictates the time taken to travel the transit boxes. That seems to confirm the above suspicion. w00t, I'd probably use something similiar to what you suggest -- with some alterations |
January 3, 2008 - 1:35pm | w00t, I'd probably use something similiar to what you suggest -- with some alterations Please advise on your alterations. :-) I'd like to see them. Would you like me to create a document in the House Rules project? |
 January 3, 2008 - 6:33pm | "Travelling through the void isn't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations you could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" I would have to venture in saying that any jump is going to be far less than routine. Solar systems are full of moving things, be it a planet or asteroid belt or various floating pieces of debris/spacejunk from prior battles. Some of these things have a gravity well, up to and including the star (or stars in a binary system) to contend with. Everything is moving in these systems, as such a planet that orbits its star is not going to be in the same place it was when you made that same jump three months ago. And without having an astronomy degree, I think I read somewhere that even the stars themselves are in some sort of constant motion as well. As such, any jump is going to require some degree of calculations and take all of these anamolies into consideration. As far as computers go, that's why I have a house rulle stating that an Analysis program equivilent in levl to the Astrogation program is required...LVL:1 Analysis for shuttles, LVL:2 for system ships, LVL:4 for starships, and then mandating LVL:6 for the deluxe astrogation equipment package. |
January 3, 2008 - 7:00pm | The SWRPG:SE Starships of the Galaxy says that you can reuse the calculations for up to a month, but taking any longer than a month between calculations and the chance of a stellar accident increases substantially. It recommends once a week. Another interesting thing they have regarding that is a stellar coordinates surveying agency (in SW it's the Space Ministry) that regularly records and submits astrogation data, updating each coordinate every day and sharing these with ships exiting the system for a fee. Of course, these are only available in high traffic areas. In Star Frontiers, that would be some system like Prenglar or Dramune. This cuts wayyy down on astrogation calculations so that calculations are only needed when heading to low traffic areas and new systems or coming from such systems. For Star Frontiers, we could consider the routes shown on the Warriors of White Light to be the depiction of the common space lanes. |
January 3, 2008 - 7:54pm | Which also brings up the point about which systems would be considered high traffic. Dixon's Star, despite being supported by only an outpost world, would still be a high traffic system as trade flourishes between the two highly populated worlds of Truane's Star (along with Zebulon's two worlds) to Prenglar via Dixon's and vice versa. On the other hand, systems with merely one route in and out (like Theeus and Scree Fron) would be lesser travelled, especially Scree Fron with its lightly populated and outpost worlds. |
January 3, 2008 - 9:59pm | How are new routes discovered? How are they maped? How is a new route put into the computer? Starmist comes to mind. Does the UPF have "special" routes not documented? |
January 3, 2008 - 11:13pm | How are new routes discovered? According to Zeb's, there is a secret UPF route to Liberty, and apparently all other traffic to Liberty is forbidden.How are they maped? How is a new route put into the computer? Starmist comes to mind. Does the UPF have "special" routes not documented? |
 January 4, 2008 - 10:51am | In the game manuals and adventure modules it is indicated that the plotted routes (shown on the maps) are what the public knows about. The UPF, some corporations, and others have routes to and from systems that are not general knowledge for security, privacy and general grabbiness reasons. I assume that each mega-corp has at least one planet or asteroid belt in a secret location being mined for resources. Along with that, the UPF probably has a few outposts near likely approaches of Sathar fleets. Highly sensitive information as it gives the "owner" an advantage and no one wants to give up an advantage. I think in terms of game play, the jumps take so long to plot and are difficult to do so that the whole of the Frontier is not "discovered" and inhabited within a month. The concept of the Frontier is that it is wild, untamed and unexplored, this will go away if everything is known. This also allows for the GM to introduce new technology gradually that can eventually lead to a fully developed Frontier (many years down the road). There are many variables that can be altered one at a time such as the calculation time, location determination, jump drive technology, engine performance, ship hull tolerance, crew tolerance, it all depends on what type of Frontier the GM has made. In the end, I really think it is meant to keep the game from getting played out too fast, to keep the mystery for as long as possible. This is up to the GM and players so it really is just a bunch of guidelines. "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
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January 4, 2008 - 11:59am | In the game manuals and adventure modules it is indicated that the plotted routes (shown on the maps) are what the public knows about. The UPF, some corporations, and others have routes to and from systems that are not general knowledge for security, privacy and general grabbiness reasons. I assume that each mega-corp has at least one planet or asteroid belt in a secret location being mined for resources. Along with that, the UPF probably has a few outposts near likely approaches of Sathar fleets. Highly sensitive information as it gives the "owner" an advantage and no one wants to give up an advantage. I think in terms of game play, the jumps take so long to plot and are difficult to do so that the whole of the Frontier is not "discovered" and inhabited within a month. The concept of the Frontier is that it is wild, untamed and unexplored, this will go away if everything is known. This also allows for the GM to introduce new technology gradually that can eventually lead to a fully developed Frontier (many years down the road). There are many variables that can be altered one at a time such as the calculation time, location determination, jump drive technology, engine performance, ship hull tolerance, crew tolerance, it all depends on what type of Frontier the GM has made. In the end, I really think it is meant to keep the game from getting played out too fast, to keep the mystery for as long as possible. This is up to the GM and players so it really is just a bunch of guidelines. Very nice thoughts. I wonder if Mega-Corps would get in big trouble if not reporting star routes. Do you think mis-jumps are the reason for finding new routes -OR- is there a way to "map" a route? Mapping a route sounds interesting and scary. |
January 4, 2008 - 1:05pm | KH covers plot new routes -- the Astrogator skills includes that. It does seem, though, that the reward for providing a new route to the UPF is relatively meager (100,000 credits) considering the potential risk and difficulty. It does state that the route must be calculated and successfully jumped both ways before it is considered plotted. Meaning that crews never know if they'll make it back. I'll get those adjusted charts to you w00t |
January 4, 2008 - 1:10pm | KH covers plot new routes -- the Astrogator skills includes that. It does seem, though, that the reward for providing a new route to the UPF is relatively meager (100,000 credits) considering the potential risk and difficulty. It does state that the route must be calculated and successfully jumped both ways before it is considered plotted. Meaning that crews never know if they'll make it back. hrm... the same calcs do not work in reverse? I guess things could change between jumps... Seems like if you jumped on way, the trip back would be cake. I also wonder if you mis-jump how hard it would be to get back to your starting point (although you would probably be happy just finding it back to the Frontier. :-D) |
January 4, 2008 - 1:47pm | In the game mechanics, the mis-jumps are not quite how I would make them. The end result of a mis-jump is that you end up in a system, just not the one you were aiming at. In using a dart board as an example, if you are aiming at the bull's eye and miss, you hit one of twenty other spaces, not another dart board. Just imagine the board to be a sphere instead of a circle, the dart will land in the sphere you aimed at, not another one, unless you really suck, or unless it is within the 'sphere of probability'. Essentially, when you plot to a star, you are using it as the distance and direction base of the calculation. The game describes the use of telescopes in determining the target location, so I would guess that you need to be able to see the target to hit it. Knowing where you are and where you want to go are relatively easy if you are using a proven "lane", it is the variables that make it hard because they change (possibly predictably for some). Variables like gravity fluctuations based on planet location within a star system, rogue planetoids, or anything that can cause a gravity effect. If you are travelling a new route, figuring out the distance can be hard since the farther something is, the harder it is to figure it out using triangulation unless you really space out the two or three (or more) points. This is what the telescopes are doing, at least two are needed to try and at least have a chance at determining distance. It is all a similar principle to plotting a resection in map navigation when you are lost. If you simply want to go 'that way' all you have to do is punch in the direction and distance and hit 'go' Problem is, you will end up anywhere but there. If you want to plot a new jump, you need to find all of the possible variables and their effect, plot them in the current state and predicted change for the whole jump then hit 'go'. Most likely you will still not end up in the correct spot, but it will be much closer than just a 'that way' calculation. I figure once you have travelled a route, you can take your position and alter the variables to account for the actual end location and try again. If you end up where you want, then you have a mapped and proven route if not, then either your astrogator sucks or there is a gravity effect that is not consistent (needing to have it's variances figured out) and may even no longer be there (rouge planetoid). The astrogation program would then have the numbers needed to spit out the plot providing you had all of the numbers filled, the calculations still need to be done but at least the correct information is there. If your astrogator was really good, he could even alter the inputs to have you end up at the desired planet (vice just somewhere in the target system) by taking the location within the local system into account. Of course there is one thing that could really change how this is all done. When you plot the position of your target, it is based on the direction and distance from where you currently are, or does the target have a consistent galactic coordinate? The difference is that if it has to be figured out from your current location, then all of the above calculations have to happen, but if you can simply input the location and go then you have insta-jump. As examples Star Trek uses the galactic coordinate idea and Star Wars is more of the plot from current location idea. Personally I like the plotting from current location because in reality, stars move and they do not all move in the same direction or at the same speeds. It would be an interesting adventure hook if the mis-jump found something (then the fun would be trying to figure out where they are and if they can get back) or if the trip was time sensitive, they fail (which is OK for characters to do on occasion). As for trouble, I think that I saw a mention of needing to report routes mapped (security and all) but I don't actually think it was an illegal act to omit this step. Obviously if the end point is of interest to someone, they will pay for the information. I try to keep things low science but believable, I don't like the 'Star Trek trap' of contradictions or logic errors. My explanation is long enough that I am sure there are some in there. "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
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 January 5, 2008 - 10:12am | It's a shame SF has the jump engines need overhauled after so many jumps. I would think a series of short jumps to be safer because less can change over pre-dertermined paths, but if you have to overhaul the drives it doesn't do you any good to make 3 short jumps. What I'd do is ditch the rules for the long calculations, unless the navigator wants to double check the computer with a secondary navigation computer and program. Double checking the system as it were. There's also the idea that most traffic is going to jump from the same location in system as everyone else, a safe point some where. All data changes if you jumo from even a slightly differet area, space being as big as it is even a slight variation of .1° can throw you many parsecs off course. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
January 5, 2008 - 2:28pm | Another variable is where in the system you emerge. If your calculations are slightly off, you might emerge from the Void too close to you destination planet to decelerate at 1g. You might have to slow down faster in order to stop in time. Conversely, you might enter the system on the other side of the star from the planet you were aiming for. Rather than decelerate at all, you would coast along, possibly for several days, until you reach the distance from the destination to start decelerating. "Rome didn't build an empire by having meetings. They did it by killing those who stood in their way." |
January 6, 2008 - 4:47am | The big thing I see in jump calculations is your destination. You ultimately want to drop out of the void in a region of empty space, ideally beyond the system's outermost planetary orbit. After all you'll need time to slow down from 12 million kph/200 hexes per turn, which at 1G acceleration (ADF:1) will take 200 game turns of ten minutes each or 33 1/3 hours. OVershooting the outermost orbit puts you in possible conflict with other objects, like inner planets or asteroids or even other spaceships. And since you're using the star as a reference point, you definitely don't want to plot any course beyond that as any path through the star takes you into it... Add to that your origin point (where you leave the first system to enter the void) will also have to be away from otehr objects, again ideally beyond the outer orbit so that your direct line of travel does not intersect anything along the way. With all that in mind, your jump is going to begin in one star system whose primary has a gravity well that extends far enough that it will have some degree of pull no matter where your ship is (after all that's what keeps its outermost planet in orbit) and you will be targeting another star that has similar properties. Each star has unique gravitational pull, some with more planets than others etc and as I metnioned earlier, I believe the stars themselves are in some type of constant motion. That being the case, you're travelling from one moving object to another, in essence it can be summarized akin to leaping from the top of an 18-wheeler onto the roof of another going the opposite direction as it passes by. Even a professional stuntman is going to need some time to prepare for that kind of feat. Increase the distance into terms of light years, suffice to say the plot time is going to increase exponentially. It does seem, though, that the reward for providing a new route to the UPF is relatively meager (100,000 credits) considering the potential risk and difficulty. Very meager. Especially with atomic fuel costs taken into consideration, a three engine ship will burn 30,000Cr worth of fuel pellets each way. Add in crew salaries and other overhead and you barely turn a profit. The only motivation for a new route is a personal short cut for future use...still one answer here to cut down on expenditures is Ion Drives (see below). And quite possibly why there aren't that many publicly known "other" routes... In the game mechanics, the mis-jumps are not quite how I would make them. Ditto. In the game mechanics, it states that a misjump lands you in a star system. I feel it should land you anywhere, including open space. I mean if you're off by a single degree it sends you wide at your destination, moreso as distance increases. I just can't see a jump with an intended destination as "north" accidently landing you at a star that is "south" of your origin. That's like throwing darts but the dart slips and lands somewhere behind you...ya gotta be pretty ignorant, drunk, and a variety of other shortcomings to pull that off! It's a shame SF has the jump engines need overhauled after so many jumps. I would think a series of short jumps to be safer because less can change over pre-dertermined paths, but if you have to overhaul the drives it doesn't do you any good to make 3 short jumps. That's the beauty behind ion drives. No overhauls required, and a mere 400-500Cr worth of fuel consumed per jump. Of course you give up performance, limited to ADF:1 according to canon rules (which I disagree on, but that's another subject. See my House Rules Wiki entry for that one). |
January 6, 2008 - 12:19pm | Again, in Star Wars, the computer system detects when the drive is off course or heading toward an object or high gravity area, in which it immediately drops the characters out of hyperspace and they must recalculate their jump from the new position. This would be a great way to find new worlds. |
January 6, 2008 - 3:00pm | Granted both systems are purely fictional, and the SW is overall much quicker, but I have to lean with the prior comments of overexploration...SW has thousands and thousands of civilized worlds versus the canon pre-Zeb 27 settled Frontier worlds. But in comparing the two fictional systems, I have this to say: |
January 6, 2008 - 6:17pm | The big thing I see in jump calculations is your destination. You ultimately want to drop out of the void in a region of empty space, ideally beyond the system's outermost planetary orbit. After all you'll need time to slow down from 12 million kph/200 hexes per turn, which at 1G acceleration (ADF:1) will take 200 game turns of ten minutes each or 33 1/3 hours. Overshooting the outermost orbit puts you in possible conflict with other objects, like inner planets or asteroids or even other spaceships. And since you're using the star as a reference point, you definitely don't want to plot any course beyond that as any path through the star takes you into it... I agree on the concept of jumping from system to system, I just include the acceleration and deceleration as a part of the whole. When you roll a billiards ball on a wonky table, it will not go where you want because of the distortions. As you repeat the act, you can compensate for them and have the ball stop exactly where you want it and externally you travelled a very windy road, but from the ball's point of view it went straight. If you have an astrogator who is (pardon pun) on the ball, he can do all of the calculations for the jump to include all of the alterations of the acceleration and deceleration paths caused by gravity and have you come to a rest close to your target. A new guy would most likely jump external from the local planets to a similar location at the destination causing added time to the trip to get to the start and end points. This would be of course because of his unfamiliarity with the region or lack of skill/confidence in the task. This would be a way of really making it clear just how important astrogation skills are when you relate them to the voyage. In AD rules, the ships travel a day per light year, in KH they travel based on the ability to accelerate to .1C (~8 days with ADF 1) plus the short time spent in the void as we all know. This more or less means that there is not much difference in travel times overall so the real advantage is having a person who can cut the travel time at the ends. If as an example it takes 2 days to get to an extra-system start point and 2 days to get into a system (add the 8 day travel time on top) and you have a 12 day trip. But if your A class astrogator can plot direct, you can make the trip 4 days shorter without breaking the canon travel time. This is of course if you even wanted to take that kind of interaction into account. The game itself makes no note of (off the top of my head) needing to be anywhere specific when plotting a jump or accelerating to or decelerating from one. "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
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January 6, 2008 - 7:19pm | I will just add this one thing, do you realize how heavy the star ship traffic is between some of the planet/system. So, how much do you think will change from ship after ship that cannot be tracked in the high traffic zones. I am sure a trend will developed into a good foundation for ships to jump without many or any computations. And, I am sure there is some kind of "Port Authority" that will make it a law to surrender the data. Read about the old sailing days. The charts were updated at-least within the military navies of the discovering ship/s. For one thing it was passed on to the naval ships for the reason of an advantage over the enemy here being the Sather, pirates, and/or mega corps. So, keep in mind on the information that you are dealing with and how important it is to all who use it. If this doesn't make you see that in known jump routes that an astrogator on a ship would only be there to "just make sure." I can see an hour +-30 minutes time for each jump on normal routes. This opens a whole new area of adventuring in my game. Have fun. |
 January 6, 2008 - 11:05pm | Star Frontiers was originally based in a sort of Wild West feel. The huge astrogation calculation times fit very well with that sort of universe. It kept people from bouncing around too much, and hey, jumping through the void is a pretty tough job--if you miscalculate you may be pulled to the wrong system, and if you run out of fuel, it may be the LAST system you ever see. Jumping like Star Wars is a different sort of thing--and something not really adequately explored in the Star Wars (movie) universe. roymeo |
 January 8, 2008 - 11:03am | Star Frontiers was originally based in a sort of Wild West feel. The huge astrogation calculation times fit very well with that sort of universe. It kept people from bouncing around too much, and hey, jumping through the void is a pretty tough job--if you miscalculate you may be pulled to the wrong system, and if you run out of fuel, it may be the LAST system you ever see. I must agree. Like the fiction I believe inspired it, I think the original intention of the designers was that space travel, while perhaps routine, should never be mundane. Spacers are a breed apart, risking life and limb with every jump. Besides if you don’t want to take all that time to calculate a nice, safe jump there’s always a risk jump. Faster and way more exciting! I always thought that Star Wars-style FTL-travel was boring (other than the nifty opening special effect): check the navi-computer, pull a switch and sit on your hands for hours and hours. Star Wars jumps are far too predicable and safe for my tastes. I think Star Frontiers got that part of things right. "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." -- George Bernard Shaw |
January 8, 2008 - 11:38am | I always thought that Star Wars-style FTL-travel was boring (other than the nifty opening special effect): check the navi-computer, pull a switch and sit on your hands for hours and hours. Star Wars jumps are far too predicable and safe for my tastes. I think Star Frontiers got that part of things right. I tend to agree with this although I like they way they handled how the Rebels needed a hiding spot... After the Battle of Hoth survivors regrouped at the secret rendezvous point, a predetermined location outside the galaxy where the Empire could not track them. This point beyond the Galactic Rim was far above the galactic equatorial plane and far away from any stars. It was beyond the galaxy's gravity well, making it a perilous journey to reach, one that many of the Rebel ships escaping from Hoth may not have been able to make. It is likely that the Rebellion suffered additional losses in the attempt to reach this point. |
