 October 17, 2007 - 11:43pm | I don't think the problem is Zeb's. As I've demonstrated with the AER
(Anniversary Edition), there's very little difference between Zeb's and
Alpha Dawn. What Zeb's did was bundle Kimber's Dragon Magazine articles
with Alpha Dawn and provide the Column Shift mechanic, individualized
skills, an extended Timeline, and 4 new races (granted, badly done
races). Though the skills were multiplied, the skills mechanic has more
freedom, so I don't really see it as compounding the problem. A little
cosmetic adjustment to the new races provided and use the timeline and
it's still Star Frontiers. Why? Because all it did was add to the story
line. You can still use the Alpha Dawn mechanics with it (as I've done
with AER). Mechanically is the only way that Zeb's messed with the Star
Frontiers game system, but it didn't do it in an entirely incompatable
way. Dump the Zeb's mechanics and the game is still playable as Star
Frontiers. It wasn't just that, Corjay. Zebs was supposed to help Star Frontiers,
to be a new edition, at a time when sci-fi gaming was beginning to
blossom and Traveller was taking the spotlight as the hard-science
supergame. Some of the ideas were great - but it fell so short of all
of our expectations for many reasons: a modified game mechanic that
nobody liked, artwork that fell way short of what we were used to and
what Traveller was putting out, a skill system that went for quantity
rather than quality, races that were just so silly they were unplayable
- even my 7 year old thinks they're dumb, etc. It's not that it's
unsalvagable -- I get that. It's that it was such a dissappointment we
just wish it was never put out. It did kill the line. After
lackluster interest in that book, TSR didn't publish any further SF
material, and even Dragon Magazine halted its sci-fi section. I fully understand why people rank on the mechanics and the races, but not anything else. Except for the mechanics, what Kimber did with Zeb's is basically what is happening in the pages of the Frontiersman. To me, it's like that one Highlander movie that took place in the future: it just should never have been made, and it's better to pretend it wasn't -- just take what few salvagable elements it had that were good and ignore it entirely. That's the opinion most StarFrontiers gamers take. The disappointment is surely understandable, but it has been 22 years, and the community is fragmented (albeit a small fragment regarding Zeb's, but a fragment all the same), and there is some good stuff there that gets used today even by professed Zeb's haters (as Bill conceded in the Highlander analogy). The Mentalist skills were provided at the end of Alpha Dawn Remastered, because it is recognized that some would appreciate it and that it is actually done in a Star Frontiersish way. I like to look at what is salvageable even from those things I don't like. Here's a list of things I have found exceptionally salvageable: 1. Out of the six main pieces of art, outside of the races and diagrams, four were well done: The front page (which everybody loves), p.26, p.62, p.87, then there's the logos of the Mega-corporations and the Cadrés and Cults. 2. The skills list is definitely unnecessarily extensive, but the skills mechanic only needs a minor adjustment to be exceptional on its own, or no adjustment if taken in tandem with the original skills of Alpha Dawn (as demonstrated in the option in the AER). 3. Some skills were understandably, if unnecessarily, merged, keeping the number lower than it could have been, but useful for streamlining the classic game if those mergers are applied to Alpha Dawn. 4. Provide vehicle piloting skills 5. Made weapons skills more easily accessible 6. Separated the environmental skills from the science skills. 7. The Mega-corporations (originally in Dragon Magazine) 8. Cadrés and Cults (originally in Dragon Magazine) 9. Variety of Rafflurs (originally in Ares; though I still prefer the proton beam designation) 10. The Timeline (Just need to correct the Vrusk over Dralasite error; see the AER for solution) 11. Breakdown of planets of the Frontier 12. Lots of new equipment. 13. Maintains the flavor, story, and original mechanics of Star Frontiers, with the exception of skills and the Column Shift mechanic. 14. Mentalist needs some adjustment, but is playable. 15. I think the Osakar and Mechanon need little modification and are original (it was the artwork alone that failed these two races), but that's my opinion. The Ifshnit doesn't actually match its artwork, and it is the artwork that has colored people's interpretation of the Ifshnit and how they play them. The Humma are the ones requiring the most salvage, but are salvageable with a little cosmetic adjustment in its description. I haven't personally found fault with these races as races. It is strictly their appearance that proves unpalatable and that is the fault of poor art. As a side note, we are currently working on cybernetics and mutations which were originally planned by Kimber Eastland to be a Zeb's Volume II. What exactly is hated: 1. The Column Shift mechanic. The game is already simple, and I've studied this system backwards and forwards and can say with confidence that you trade die rolling for table referencing. I and most people will take the die rolling any day. It also oversimplifies damage, providing less variety and too standardized. 2. Too many skills. 3. Bad Diagrams 4. Mentalist abilities are hated only by some, others can take it or leave it, and others love it. 5. The Ifshnit and the Humma are tired and childish respectively. Some dislike the Osakar, but mostly due to artistic representation, and the only thing I ever hear against the Mechanon is the art. 6. The book was poorly edited and designed. 7. Came at a time when quality over quanity was being stressed by other gaming companies but failed in this volume. I view it from the standpoint that if Zeb's came first, the same view and arguments could have been made toward Alpha Dawn (save for the artwork, but only barely). This argument is temporal and not mechanically or aesthetically related. As you can see, there's actually quite a lot that is salvageable, and indeed has become a large part of the Star Frontiers experience. If you replace the art with quality images and turn the unpalatable mechanics (Column Shift Mechanic and extra skills) into mere options, and apply better editing and design, the book is easily turned into something worth using. |
 October 23, 2007 - 7:10am | what a success. in 2007 were still talking about it!  I am going to come to ZG defense just for a bit. When ZG came out, I introduced a couple of my high school friends to it. They caught onto the resolution system faster than they did AD. Those two became long term gamers because of it. The resolution table is a good way to keep from confusing new gamers by keeping the majority of the work on the gm's side of the table. For some people the individual skills made more sence than the psa groupings did. But, one thing I notice about new gamers now, if they cant figure out the game, the become die-hard collectible card game players...  or the closest they get to an rpg is on a computer.Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
October 23, 2007 - 7:50am | Earlier I said that the original Zeb's didn't provide an introduction and the Remastered provided the introduction. I was incorrect. I tend to forget about the Introduction being untraditionally provided before the table of contents in Zeb's, so I overlook it. In it, it says that Zeb's cannot be properly used without Alpha Dawn and that Zeb's expands on Alpha Dawn. Additionally the fact that it is called an "Accessory", a supplement, not a rulebook, is more indication of its purpose for providing optional rules, not replacement rules. To quote Zeb's, "It builds upon that game's foundation, but does not completely replace it. The referee should have a working knowledge of the STAR FRONTIERS game before using this product." |
 October 23, 2007 - 9:51am | Perhaps Zebs is not a total train wreck - but there is far more crapitude than just the horrid resolution system. Cheesy races, ridiculous background story, mentals... plus I bet a lot of the equipment and skills are crap though I must admit that they deserve a second look. Many people have told me that they are lame. So yes, there is a bit that is salvageable. But it does not seem like all that much. |
October 23, 2007 - 10:00am | Can you elaborate on what you think is ridiculous about the background story? |
October 23, 2007 - 10:07am | By the way, the only crapitude I can seem to find in equipment is where they diversified the weapons too much (in my opinion) and introduced the stuff to complicate computers and robots with the maxiprog and progit stuff, making it unbearable to weed through or use. All the rest of the equipment seems reasonable to me. |
October 23, 2007 - 10:29am | They way that they explained the Second Sathar War. That whole thing with the asteroid base and the Sathar negotiating. The Mechanon revolt - absurd (see my post above for details on that). Then, of course, the silliness with the new races and how they were introduced, all the way down to the cheddar "LandFleet" (only Zebs could think up such an awful name for Ground Forces.) If you want me to comb through it again I will hold my nose and find probably another dozen instances of pure cheese whiz. Unsalvageable. |
October 23, 2007 - 10:39am | Why is "Landfleet" a bad name? |
October 23, 2007 - 10:45am | Didnt Babylon 5 use the term "Landfleet" or something close to it? I think there was some tv show that used the term in the last decade. I always liked the idea of the Mechanon revolt. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
October 23, 2007 - 10:58am | Star Frontiers was first to use it, at least outside literary circles. |
October 23, 2007 - 11:38am | As for the Mechanon revolt, Starspawn of Volturnus indicates that the Mechanon's in that module believed the Eorna to bear ill-will toward the Mechanon, and that an attack on the Eorna was being planned for the following year. The only thing I find hard to palate in any way regarding the Mechanon comes from the Starspawn module itself, in that the Mechanon worship a robot god. I think the Zeb's treatment of the Mechanon gives us a clearer understanding of the Mechanon without violating what was written in Starspawn, while leaving out (but not precluding) the redicuous details provided in Starspawn. |
October 23, 2007 - 1:43pm | LandFleet is just awful. Ground Forces (or something similar) is much more appropriate. "Fleets" do not operate on "Land". The idea of the Mechanons revolting against the UPF with maybe 1500 combat robots is laughable. Again, read my post above regarding the Mechanon revolt. Chintz-cheese. Utterly ill conceived and not thought through. |
October 23, 2007 - 1:57pm | LandFleet is just awful. Ground Forces (or something similar) is much more appropriate. "Fleets" do not operate on "Land". Perhaps the words "landing fleet" might help you better understand what "landfleet" means. They cover more than just ground-based warfare. It covers sea and air as well, so "fleet" is most certainly appropriate.The idea of the Mechanons revolting against the UPF with maybe 1500 combat robots is laughable. Again, read my post above regarding the Mechanon revolt. Chintz-cheese. Utterly ill conceived and not thought through. As for the Mechanon, I read your post and that's your take, as you say. But having your take doesn't diminish Zeb's. Zeb's has them revolting long after the incident on Volturnus. They don't reproduce by natural means, but through construction. With the materials available, they could have easily stepped into high gear in development. Besides this, they are clearly capable warriors. Standing up to the UPF wouldn't be that hard, especially since the UPF were already taxed with the Sathar wars and the pirate and corporate wars that precipitated SWII. Not to mention, Zeb's gives some pretty thorough thought to how and why many calmed down as well as showing that some remained behind and still despise living beings. |
October 23, 2007 - 1:59pm | And the Eorna would have sat there during this huge Mechanon build-up and done NOTHING? Please. |
October 23, 2007 - 2:01pm | And the Eorna would have sat there during this huge Mechanon build-up and done NOTHING? Please. I thought the Eorna were whiped out? If not do they know how to reason with the Mechanon? or have some type of deactivation switch? |
October 23, 2007 - 2:02pm | And as for LandFleet - it sounds bad, is confusing, looks bad, and once again, was poorly thought out. There is a much better term out there - maybe Planetary Forces or something of that nature. |
October 23, 2007 - 2:03pm | And the Eorna would have sat there during this huge Mechanon build-up and done NOTHING? The Mechanon lived underground and the Eorna did not know the goings on of the Mechanon. They only knew that they were there.Please. |
October 23, 2007 - 2:08pm | Yet AGAIN, read my post. The Voltunus modules mentioned that the Eorna were monitoring all the Races that they created. Plus, with the 50,000 eggs found at the end of StarSpawn, the Eorna were definitely rejuvenated and capable of monitoring their creations. They would have been watching - and would have been able to put the smackdown on the Mechanons THEMSELVES probably. At a bare absolute minimum, they would have warned the UPF and told them all they need to know to bomb those Gobots into submission. It would not have even made the Galactic Evening News... |
October 23, 2007 - 2:09pm | You know, I just realized, Imperial Lord, that you have your own Star Frontiers web set up in which your game revolves, and that's fine. You don't like Zeb's, and the point is made. I like the Zeb's treatment of the Mechanon better than the Starspawn treatment, and I think "Landfleet" is a perfectly good name. Neither one of us needs to convince the other. They're opinions. Nothing more. I'm a purist, so I'm going to stick close to what was published by TSR, even if the execution wasn't handled very well. So far, my analysis has led me to believe that both the Mechanon and Mentalists are well-developed. That's my conclusion. |
October 23, 2007 - 2:21pm | Fair enough Corjay. No need to get into a pissing contest. After all, referees will do what they want anyway. I appreciate purism, but when faced with buckets of cheese, I have to invoke the ole Dungeon Master's priviledge and change things. Believe me, no one is hurt more than ME by my vicious attacks on Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space. Yet I must attack, because I am so disappointed by what they did. I almost had tears in my eyes when I looked at it online for the first time over a year ago or so. I could not find it ANYWHERE when it first came out. I was so excited, I had never had my heart beat faster looking at a non-porn website. I immediately hit "print" as soon as the .PDF was completely loaded, expending precious toner without hesitation. After all, it was going to be awesome... right? Then I started reading, and my joy rapidly wilted to sadness and rage. Someone shat on my game! How could this happen? But hey, different strokes for different folks. Obviously, I can't stop you or anyone else from using it. But let me remind you all of just one thing. The game was great before Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space. And without it, it remains so. |
 October 25, 2007 - 9:28am | B5's ground force were the Earthforce Marine Corps. Landfleet sounds like the name of a moving company, by the by.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
October 25, 2007 - 9:43am | LandFleet is just awful. Ground Forces (or something similar) is much more appropriate. "Fleets" do not operate on "Land". Perhaps the words "landing fleet" might help you better understand what "landfleet" means. They cover more than just ground-based warfare. It covers sea and air as well, so "fleet" is most certainly appropriate.The idea of the Mechanons revolting against the UPF with maybe 1500 combat robots is laughable. Again, read my post above regarding the Mechanon revolt. Chintz-cheese. Utterly ill conceived and not thought through. As would the terms "Spacefleet Infantry Corps," "Spacefleet Mobile Infantry Corps," " Spacefleet Mechanized Lift Infantry Corps," or, a term which has been used describe a force that's been first to fight for right and for freedom in the land, air or sea for at least the past couple hundred years..."The Marine Corps...." "The few, the proud, the Frontier Marines." Hmm, that's a catchy name. As for purity of the game, and it being "true" Star Frontiers, the master law of any RPG is: The rules aren't in charge of the game...the referee/GM is. Bottom line, like beauty, what is "true" SF is very much in the eyes of the beholder, and, in my opinion, anyone who clings inflexibly to the idea that their version of the game is the only way it should be run, and that all other versions are heresy, is in deadly danger of becoming another Gary Gygax or Kevin Siembada and will, in the fullness of time, be rendered just as irrelevant to the community as a whole. Here ends the lesson. Peace. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
October 25, 2007 - 9:51am | LandFleet is just awful. Ground Forces (or something similar) is much more appropriate. "Fleets" do not operate on "Land". Perhaps the words "landing fleet" might help you better understand what "landfleet" means. They cover more than just ground-based warfare. It covers sea and air as well, so "fleet" is most certainly appropriate.The idea of the Mechanons revolting against the UPF with maybe 1500 combat robots is laughable. Again, read my post above regarding the Mechanon revolt. Chintz-cheese. Utterly ill conceived and not thought through. As would the terms "Spacefleet Infantry Corps," "Spacefleet Mobile Infantry Corps," " Spacefleet Mechanized Lift Infantry Corps," or, a term which has been used describe a force that's been first to fight for right and for freedom in the land, air or sea for at least the past couple hundred years..."The Marine Corps...." "The few, the proud, the Frontier Marines." Hmm, that's a catchy name. As for purity of the game, and it being "true" Star Frontiers, the master law of any RPG is: The rules aren't in charge of the game...the referee/GM is. Bottom line, like beauty, what is "true" SF is very much in the eyes of the beholder, and, in my opinion, anyone who clings inflexibly to the idea that their version of the game is the only way it should be run, and that all other versions are heresy, is in deadly danger of becoming another Gary Gygax or Kevin Siembada and will, in the fullness of time, be rendered just as irrelevant to the community as a whole. Here ends the lesson. Peace. |
October 25, 2007 - 10:04am | Then, he's moved past that? "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
October 25, 2007 - 10:19am | Oh, it just crossed my mind that "fleet" has been applied to land vehicles when refering to a fleet of trucks or a fleet of drivers or a fleet of vehicles. Basically, it applies to any group of vehicles, whether land, sea, air, or space. |
October 25, 2007 - 10:39am | Frankly, I would think a heavily mechanized, vehicle-laden force would really be more apt for a planetary or corporate militia, while the Spacefleet's ground arm—whatever you want to call it—would more likely have more powered armor infantry, maybe even a few combat mecha and some ortillery, than vehicles, in keeping with it being a highly-mobile force capable of rapid deployment to hotspots throughout space, ala the Mobile Infantry from the novel Starship Troopers, maybe with a bit of the Fleet Initial Strike Team concept from the Starfist military sci-fi series thrown in for flavoring. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
October 25, 2007 - 11:22am | Frankly, I would think a heavily mechanized, vehicle-laden force would really be more apt for a planetary or corporate militia, while the Spacefleet's ground arm—whatever you want to call it—would more likely have more powered armor infantry, maybe even a few combat mecha and some ortillery, than vehicles, in keeping with it being a highly-mobile force capable of rapid deployment to hotspots throughout space, ala the Mobile Infantry from the novel Starship Troopers, maybe with a bit of the Fleet Initial Strike Team concept from the Starfist military sci-fi series thrown in for flavoring. I don't want to sidetrack this disussion, so I moved your statement to a subject I'm wanting to discuss. Go here to continue:http://starfrontiers.us/node/1436 |
 October 25, 2007 - 3:56pm | The Voltunus modules mentioned that the Eorna were monitoring all the Races that they created. Plus, with the 50,000 eggs found at the end of StarSpawn, the Eorna were definitely rejuvenated and capable of monitoring their creations. They would have been watching - and would have been able to put the smackdown on the Mechanons THEMSELVES probably. At a bare absolute minimum, they would have warned the UPF and told them all they need to know to bomb those Gobots into submission. It would not have even made the Galactic Evening News... +1 By the end of the module trilogy (Starspawn on Volturnus), some 1000-1500 mechanon robots have been brought to bear. No doubt the bulk of the mechanon forces, but that can be debated as well as to actual numbers during that time frame. Still, by the end of the game, some 50K eorna eggs are discovered and within 30 years their numbers should be pretty good, far enough to avoid the extinction they were facing during the modules. Add to that it's eorna crystal technology that powers the Mechs, so they ought to be pretty familiar with how they work if anything goes awry. I don't fully buy into a mechanon exodus as it was laid out in the timeline, although I do see how the mechs could want to subvert biological life thus creating such paranoia. Perhaps the "peaceful" mechs sought some form of sanctuary, thus leading to such an "exodus". Either way, any negative feelings toward the Mechanons shouldn't fall on the shoulders of the Zeb writers. They came out with the debut of Star Frontiers via the original modules. P.S. I have some artwork that depicts my view of an Osakar and a Humma. I'll go upload it into the artwork gallery. |
October 25, 2007 - 4:10pm | You also have to remember that the Mechanon had technology. They had slave robots and weapons. They could produce a formidible army of non-mechanon robots and lots of AI artillery without having to expand their ranks. So not only would they have a 1000 warrior castes out on the field, they could have 10,000 brain castes operating weapons and commanding warbots. Additionally, being so intelligent, they were undoubtedly greater strategists than the Eorna. Their strategy would be at least as flawless as Big Blue. |
October 26, 2007 - 9:46am | Until they ran into an enemy operating on logic, and end up stalemated and outwitted by us poor illogical organics, kind of like the Daleks and the Movellians. Really, that's my main issue with the Mechanons...the AI robots/cyborgs run amok has been done a zillion times before in science fiction and SFRPG, from Doctor Who to Battlestar Galactica—which, I believe was on the air around the same time AD came out—amongst many others. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
October 26, 2007 - 9:57am | Until they ran into an enemy operating on logic, and end up stalemated and outwitted by us poor illogical organics, kind of like the Daleks and the Movellians. Personally, I wouldn't include logical paradox vulnerability in a game myself, because there is programming to bypass logical paradoxes. That's why computers run so smoothly these days. Used to, you could stick a computer in a loop at the drop of a hat. Now you can't.Really, that's my main issue with the Mechanons...the AI robots/cyborgs run amok has been done a zillion times before in science fiction and SFRPG, from Doctor Who to Battlestar Galactica—which, I believe was on the air around the same time AD came out—amongst many others. |
