 October 17, 2007 - 11:43pm | I don't think the problem is Zeb's. As I've demonstrated with the AER
(Anniversary Edition), there's very little difference between Zeb's and
Alpha Dawn. What Zeb's did was bundle Kimber's Dragon Magazine articles
with Alpha Dawn and provide the Column Shift mechanic, individualized
skills, an extended Timeline, and 4 new races (granted, badly done
races). Though the skills were multiplied, the skills mechanic has more
freedom, so I don't really see it as compounding the problem. A little
cosmetic adjustment to the new races provided and use the timeline and
it's still Star Frontiers. Why? Because all it did was add to the story
line. You can still use the Alpha Dawn mechanics with it (as I've done
with AER). Mechanically is the only way that Zeb's messed with the Star
Frontiers game system, but it didn't do it in an entirely incompatable
way. Dump the Zeb's mechanics and the game is still playable as Star
Frontiers. It wasn't just that, Corjay. Zebs was supposed to help Star Frontiers,
to be a new edition, at a time when sci-fi gaming was beginning to
blossom and Traveller was taking the spotlight as the hard-science
supergame. Some of the ideas were great - but it fell so short of all
of our expectations for many reasons: a modified game mechanic that
nobody liked, artwork that fell way short of what we were used to and
what Traveller was putting out, a skill system that went for quantity
rather than quality, races that were just so silly they were unplayable
- even my 7 year old thinks they're dumb, etc. It's not that it's
unsalvagable -- I get that. It's that it was such a dissappointment we
just wish it was never put out. It did kill the line. After
lackluster interest in that book, TSR didn't publish any further SF
material, and even Dragon Magazine halted its sci-fi section. I fully understand why people rank on the mechanics and the races, but not anything else. Except for the mechanics, what Kimber did with Zeb's is basically what is happening in the pages of the Frontiersman. To me, it's like that one Highlander movie that took place in the future: it just should never have been made, and it's better to pretend it wasn't -- just take what few salvagable elements it had that were good and ignore it entirely. That's the opinion most StarFrontiers gamers take. The disappointment is surely understandable, but it has been 22 years, and the community is fragmented (albeit a small fragment regarding Zeb's, but a fragment all the same), and there is some good stuff there that gets used today even by professed Zeb's haters (as Bill conceded in the Highlander analogy). The Mentalist skills were provided at the end of Alpha Dawn Remastered, because it is recognized that some would appreciate it and that it is actually done in a Star Frontiersish way. I like to look at what is salvageable even from those things I don't like. Here's a list of things I have found exceptionally salvageable: 1. Out of the six main pieces of art, outside of the races and diagrams, four were well done: The front page (which everybody loves), p.26, p.62, p.87, then there's the logos of the Mega-corporations and the Cadrés and Cults. 2. The skills list is definitely unnecessarily extensive, but the skills mechanic only needs a minor adjustment to be exceptional on its own, or no adjustment if taken in tandem with the original skills of Alpha Dawn (as demonstrated in the option in the AER). 3. Some skills were understandably, if unnecessarily, merged, keeping the number lower than it could have been, but useful for streamlining the classic game if those mergers are applied to Alpha Dawn. 4. Provide vehicle piloting skills 5. Made weapons skills more easily accessible 6. Separated the environmental skills from the science skills. 7. The Mega-corporations (originally in Dragon Magazine) 8. Cadrés and Cults (originally in Dragon Magazine) 9. Variety of Rafflurs (originally in Ares; though I still prefer the proton beam designation) 10. The Timeline (Just need to correct the Vrusk over Dralasite error; see the AER for solution) 11. Breakdown of planets of the Frontier 12. Lots of new equipment. 13. Maintains the flavor, story, and original mechanics of Star Frontiers, with the exception of skills and the Column Shift mechanic. 14. Mentalist needs some adjustment, but is playable. 15. I think the Osakar and Mechanon need little modification and are original (it was the artwork alone that failed these two races), but that's my opinion. The Ifshnit doesn't actually match its artwork, and it is the artwork that has colored people's interpretation of the Ifshnit and how they play them. The Humma are the ones requiring the most salvage, but are salvageable with a little cosmetic adjustment in its description. I haven't personally found fault with these races as races. It is strictly their appearance that proves unpalatable and that is the fault of poor art. As a side note, we are currently working on cybernetics and mutations which were originally planned by Kimber Eastland to be a Zeb's Volume II. What exactly is hated: 1. The Column Shift mechanic. The game is already simple, and I've studied this system backwards and forwards and can say with confidence that you trade die rolling for table referencing. I and most people will take the die rolling any day. It also oversimplifies damage, providing less variety and too standardized. 2. Too many skills. 3. Bad Diagrams 4. Mentalist abilities are hated only by some, others can take it or leave it, and others love it. 5. The Ifshnit and the Humma are tired and childish respectively. Some dislike the Osakar, but mostly due to artistic representation, and the only thing I ever hear against the Mechanon is the art. 6. The book was poorly edited and designed. 7. Came at a time when quality over quanity was being stressed by other gaming companies but failed in this volume. I view it from the standpoint that if Zeb's came first, the same view and arguments could have been made toward Alpha Dawn (save for the artwork, but only barely). This argument is temporal and not mechanically or aesthetically related. As you can see, there's actually quite a lot that is salvageable, and indeed has become a large part of the Star Frontiers experience. If you replace the art with quality images and turn the unpalatable mechanics (Column Shift Mechanic and extra skills) into mere options, and apply better editing and design, the book is easily turned into something worth using. |
 October 18, 2007 - 2:12am | I've played a few Ifshnits, both as PCs and NPCs, since the release (adapting them to Alpha Dawn) and actually enjoy portraying them in both aspects. They make for decent techs, able to access the tighter quarters that the core races have difficulty reaching (well, a Dralasite can do so as well, but requires time to alter its shape accordingly). Poor fighters with respect to being limited to the shorter ranged weapons and such, but a pistol buttstock and a scope can help out there. |
 October 18, 2007 - 4:47am | Having had a chance to read through Zeb's Guide, I don't care for any of the new species (except perhaps the osakar, who remain true to the "truly alien aliens" feel of Alpha Dawn). I definitely don't care for the new mechanic, though I might find it easier to take in a different game. I like skills, but I'm not sure I like the way Zeb's does them; something halfway between Zeb's and AD -- which would be Alternity-like -- that takes the Ability Scores into account in task resolution would be ideal, for me. If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. -- Carl Sagan |
 October 18, 2007 - 6:17am | I like skills, but I'm not sure I like the way Zeb's does them; something halfway between Zeb's and AD -- which would be Alternity-like -- that takes the Ability Scores into account in task resolution would be ideal, for me. I like the skills that Zebs brought in, but I will have to agree that there are too many. Some of them need to be combined into one. A few years back, a number of people got together and put together a fuzion of ZG and AD. They tied all the ZG skills with ability scores and gave them percentiles to work with the AD system. Also they revamped the character creation system to incorperate the skills. It is refered to as SF2K. One of these days I will get around to posting it in this forum. I think there is still a link to download it from starfrontiers.com. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
October 18, 2007 - 6:25am | ...although the Force Ax has intrigued me a few times and I did give one to a NPC Ifshnit after adapting it to AD specs. Heh heh. I incorperated the Force Ax as well, just dived the ZG damage by 10 and then used the remaining as the number of dice for damage. If I recall, 5d10 is what I had for damage. I adopted most of the equipment from Zebs. All that gear is another one of the good points for me. One of the women I used to game with loved the Osakar, I think it mainly because their fasion sence was the same as hers. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 October 18, 2007 - 7:06am | Rum, that's just plain scary.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
October 18, 2007 - 11:47am | I like skills, but I'm not sure I like the way Zeb's does them; something halfway between Zeb's and AD -- which would be Alternity-like -- that takes the Ability Scores into account in task resolution would be ideal, for me. I like the skills that Zebs brought in, but I will have to agree that there are too many. Some of them need to be combined into one. A few years back, a number of people got together and put together a fuzion of ZG and AD. They tied all the ZG skills with ability scores and gave them percentiles to work with the AD system. Also they revamped the character creation system to incorperate the skills. It is refered to as SF2K. One of these days I will get around to posting it in this forum. I think there is still a link to download it from starfrontiers.com. |
October 18, 2007 - 12:55pm | I've provided all the Zeb's skills with AD conversions in the 25th Anniversary Edition. Sweet!! I will definately check it out. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
October 18, 2007 - 4:52pm | If you find any errors, be sure to let me know. |
October 18, 2007 - 9:19pm | Publishing Zeb's Guide in 1983 was an error...LOL |
October 18, 2007 - 9:49pm | I'm not sure I understand you, SS. Who said it was published in '83? |
October 18, 2007 - 10:27pm | Whoops, 1985 was the first printing. Just saying the game died following its release, they tried to fix something that wasn't broken. Lots of good supplemental material, but the execution was flawed. |
October 18, 2007 - 11:12pm | Yes, the execution. But to ignore its usefulness is to cut off the nose to spite the face. The editors (3, would you believe it?) and graphic designers (5, would you believe it?) are to blame, not the material. Most editors, if they gave the book a proper shake, would have dumped the Column Shift mechanic or made it clear that it was only an option, and make the new skills treatment compatible with the old skills treatment, as changing the operation of a game so drastically is itself damaging, and then to so half-heartedly execute it alienates the existing audience while making it hard for newcomers to like it. And considering how much material was printed after Zeb's guide, I don't think Zeb's actually killed the game. I think it was TSR's lack of making efforts to recover from a mistake, and I think, at that time, TSR was owned by the woman that ran TSR into the ground. |
October 19, 2007 - 9:40am | And considering how much material was printed after Zeb's guide, I don't think Zeb's actually killed the game. I think it was TSR's lack of making efforts to recover from a mistake, and I think, at that time, TSR was owned by the woman that ran TSR into the ground. Yup. I recall seeing an advertisement for Zebs Guide 2 in a Dragon mag. That was about a year after ZG was released. But a few months after the add was released, T$R emerged with 2nd edition D&D and the Buck Rogers line of D&D in space. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 October 19, 2007 - 10:40am | I have posted many times regarding Zebs and its suckitude of SF.com/org so I will try to nutshell it here for everyone. Zebs, to me, seemed like drowning of a fine piece of meat (Star Frontiers) in cheese-sauce. Lots of stuff, thrown in pell-mell, without much thought to anything. Their attempts to fix stuff that was not broke - such as that stupid resolution system - totally unnecessary. Then there is the heresy of the background story. I had many ideas about how SWII would come out, and NONE of them corresponded to the outcome listed in Zebs! Sathar negotiating? What the hell is that? All that stupid crap about that asteroid base or whatever? WHAT? Then there are the new Races - Gobots, Lawn Gnomes and Kangaroos? Total cheddar. The Mechanons and their whole deal was particularly disgusting. I wrote an article about this at SF.org, and in my view the Mechanon situation encapsulates the buckets of cheese that Zebs poured all over a great game. Here is a paste from that post: "My take on the Mechanons is that with the victory over the Sathar and the rejuvenation of the Eorna after the battle, the Mechanons shed much of their hatred of "biological units". This being particularly true when the Eorna finally stepped out from the shadows and revealed that they had made them! As a result, the Mechanons mellowed out some, but remain highly isolated from the rest of the Frontier, along with all of the other Eorna Volturnus races (Ul-Mor, Kurabanda, Edestakai, etc.) Volturnus, after the battle, is a protected Federation Outpost. The Eorna strictly control contact with the sub-races, including the Mechanons, to allow more stable long-term development. In that logical context to the long-term result of the UPF victory on Volturnus, the whole thing with the Mechanon revolt and all that was just ridiculous. I wonder if Moldvay put his stamp to that take on the Mechanons? I'd bet he did not. After all, the Mechanons only had about 1000 combat bots at the Battle of Volturnus in StarSpawn. Maybe a total strength of 1500 plus some warbots? Revolt against the UPF with a force like that? And if they went crazy building military stuff, wouldn't the Eorna have stopped them or at least warned the UPF?" We don't need tons of races to make Star Frontiers better. We don't need ANY. Now, if you want to put them out there, then I won't stop you, but you heard it here first - zillions of PC races do NOT make a game great, or even better. In fact, they usually make it lame. Having said that, NPC races are fine and I use them often. Mentalists are mental. More buckets. Deanna Troi... I just can't have it. Just can't. DIE Mentalists, just please die.Some of the equipment in Zebs is good. In terms of the skills, I was too busy wretching and heaving from the new resolution system, the new PC races, the Mentalists, and the horrible background story to give them anything more than a once-over. Maybe after I clean up the chunks that are all over my printed out copy of Zebs (I wish I could have that TONER back!) then I'll have another look. I will quote Art here: "Total Poo." I agree 100%. |
October 19, 2007 - 10:24am | I agree with ImpLord on several points, even though I like cheese. And, it seems I'm not the only one who calls Ifshnits lawn gnomes.... All seriousness, I cannot fathom the logic behind the Column Shift system, unless it was to attract players of Squad Leader, Star Fleet Battles or (the horror!) RoleMaster to Star Frontiers. Honestly, why did they feel the need to do away with a resolution mechanic which survives(after a fashion)well into the d20 era for something no one really cared for, couldn't understand, didn't bother to use, or all three? The races...first off, if they wanted to bring in a new PC race, the Mhneme(from The War Machine) were right there waiting(as were the Zuraqquor, if you're into that sort of thing), without resorting to bargain-basement Daleks, refugees from too many Atari Force comics, self-cloning Tripods with no fashion sense, and, yes, frickin' lawn gnomes. The timeline...completely messed up, even if I ended up incorporating some of the less insipid bits into my own timeline(click on sig below), and ZEB's completely dropped the ball in regards to continuity(Moline is not the captial of Clarion, and White Light is a red-orange star, ffs). The skills...too many and not enough of them at the same time. Specalization rules for the originial skills could've just as easily done the same thing, better than the ZEB's skills, while many of the others were plain unneccesary for anyone not an NPC. Mentalists...completely screwed up...limiting their non-mentalist options strikes me as extremely ridiculous and not at all in keeping with the psis we've seen in SFTV, movies and literature...it would be next to impossible to create a PsiCop or a Lensman, let alone a simple P5 from these rules...they would've done well to simply taken the Traveller mechanic for psis, made it their own and made it better. Up to and including a roll(against a very low number per discipline)at creation to determine if the character has any psionic abilities to start with, so as to try and limit the number of pyrokinetic mind-readers with ESP running around loose in one's campaign. The gear...I would've like the proton weapons better if the rationale behind them requiring a different sized miniclip wasn't well...contrived. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
October 20, 2007 - 2:02am | I think it was TSR's lack of making efforts to recover from a mistake, and I think, at that time, TSR was owned by the woman that ran TSR into the ground. Forcing guys like Gary Gygax out didn't help matters either. I missed most of the "end of TSR" history but have read accounts in the past year or so. Then there are the new Races - Gobots, Lawn Gnomes and Kangaroos? You forgot the hand jobs. and ZEB's completely dropped the ball in regards to continuity It's like watching the Batman movies: Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer, & George Clooney as Batman with Billy Dee Williams & Tommy Lee Jones as Harvey Dent. The only continuity there was the Batmen actors had two names and the Two Faces had three names. |
October 20, 2007 - 3:18am | I agree with ImpLord on several points, even though I like cheese. The Mentalists were limited the way they were in both attainability and isolation from skills because they are very powerful, with little means of a character to defend themselves against the Mentalist. However, rules should not hinder the Referee from making adjustments to suit his own game. You don't have to have those limits if you don't want them. Every rule in the Star Frontiers rules was made optional by the paragraphs on roleplaying. And, it seems I'm not the only one who calls Ifshnits lawn gnomes.... All seriousness, I cannot fathom the logic behind the Column Shift system, unless it was to attract players of Squad Leader, Star Fleet Battles or (the horror!) RoleMaster to Star Frontiers. Honestly, why did they feel the need to do away with a resolution mechanic which survives(after a fashion)well into the d20 era for something no one really cared for, couldn't understand, didn't bother to use, or all three? The races...first off, if they wanted to bring in a new PC race, the Mhneme(from The War Machine) were right there waiting(as were the Zuraqquor, if you're into that sort of thing), without resorting to bargain-basement Daleks, refugees from too many Atari Force comics, self-cloning Tripods with no fashion sense, and, yes, frickin' lawn gnomes. The timeline...completely messed up, even if I ended up incorporating some of the less insipid bits into my own timeline(click on sig below), and ZEB's completely dropped the ball in regards to continuity(Moline is not the captial of Clarion, and White Light is a red-orange star, ffs). The skills...too many and not enough of them at the same time. Specalization rules for the originial skills could've just as easily done the same thing, better than the ZEB's skills, while many of the others were plain unneccesary for anyone not an NPC. Mentalists...completely screwed up...limiting their non-mentalist options strikes me as extremely ridiculous and not at all in keeping with the psis we've seen in SFTV, movies and literature...it would be next to impossible to create a PsiCop or a Lensman, let alone a simple P5 from these rules...they would've done well to simply taken the Traveller mechanic for psis, made it their own and made it better. Up to and including a roll(against a very low number per discipline)at creation to determine if the character has any psionic abilities to start with, so as to try and limit the number of pyrokinetic mind-readers with ESP running around loose in one's campaign. The gear...I would've like the proton weapons better if the rationale behind them requiring a different sized miniclip wasn't well...contrived. Also, the limitation of choosing disciplines instead of skills was only limited to a Mentalist devotee, not to someone with natural Mentalist abilities. A person with natural abilities could spend experience points to improve his LOG score in order to improve his disciplines while still learning any other skills he wants to. Think about it, though. A person who could freely improve his Mentalist capabilities on equal footing with his skills would so affect game balance that everyone would want a Mentalist character just to stay in an equal power level. I got the sense that the Mentalist was actually quite well tested, even if the other stuff wasn't. There was a psionics article early on in Star Frontiers articles that we don't currently have available. I'm thinking that the Mentalist disciplines were likely adapted from that, seeing as everything else (except for the Column Shift mechanic) came from previous articles as well. As for the timeline, I could very much use help in clearing up any inconsistencies with previous Alpha Dawn materials in the AER project. Note that I'm only looking to clear up inconsistencies and contradictions. I am not looking to totally redesign or replace the timeline. By the way, I believe the timeline also comes from an earlier article not currently available (articles on both psionics and a timeline are mentioned in the StarQuestions articles prior to Zebulon's Guide, though neither appeared in Dragon Magazine, as far as I know). |
October 20, 2007 - 8:06pm | An article called Frontiers of the Mind was published in the Ares special edition. It had psionics for AD. It is hosted at starfrontiers.com I dont think it was any where near as powerful as the mentalist from ZG. I played a mentalist in a fairly long campaign, and there were times when it did throw off the adventure. Especially when i managed to use my abilities to create a distraction and caused a power backpack to explode. The gm ruled that the damage would be 1d10 per SEU left in the pack with a degrading blast radius.... yeah... I think I delivered 80d10 damage to all the bad guys in the explorer, plus myself and 2 party members. I think some of the party outside the vehicle took 20d10. Bit I did kill al the bad guys!! and all of us in the vehicle.  Then the gm decide that there was enough of us left to clone. Then we might as well have been playing Paranoia with as much as some of us got killed. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
October 21, 2007 - 7:32am | Trust the Computer, Rummie, the Computer is your friend. What kind of referee would allow that powerful a character in the game to begin with?! Sheesh, like a D&D Monty Haul campaign where everyone's a 15th level fighter/magic user/ranger/thief/paladin/chief cook/bottlewasher with an arsenal of powerful spells and magic items to boot. Also, the limitation of choosing disciplines instead of skills was only limited to a Mentalist devotee, not to someone with natural Mentalist abilities. A person with natural abilities could spend experience points to improve his LOG score in order to improve his disciplines while still learning any other skills he wants to. Think about it, though. A person who could freely improve his Mentalist capabilities on equal footing with his skills would so affect game balance that everyone would want a Mentalist character just to stay in an equal power level. I got the sense that the Mentalist was actually quite well tested, even if the other stuff wasn't. There was a psionics article early on in Star Frontiers articles that we don't currently have available. I'm thinking that the Mentalist disciplines were likely adapted from that, seeing as everything else (except for the Column Shift mechanic) came from previous articles as well. Then it's still a design problem, and no amount of explaining it away will paper that over. More realistically, I think(and with psionics, reality is a loose concept at best), referees should roll percentile dice at creation for each character to see if he/she/it is a psi, and a cap should be set on how powerful that psi can be, ever...something like, say, a max of (INT/2)% as the base roll for each "subskill," meaning starting characters will have only a 35% base chance, plus/minus modifiers, to deliberately send someone a thought, or to dig deeper in someone's head than just the surface thoughts/emotions , with each deliberate use of power costing (lots of) STA even if successful, with 99-00 knocking the psi out for a goodly amount of game time. Something along those lines, at least.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
October 21, 2007 - 11:19am | What kind of referee would allow that powerful a character in the game to begin with?! Heh heh. Well, in both our defense, it was a first attempt by either of us with the Mentalist. And the mentalist ability I used was Disruption. Disruption will allow the character to explode inanimate object. If the object has any power in it, even 1 SEU, it is treated as a frag grenade. Since the focus of my attention was a power backpack that was practically full, the gm decided to amplify the damage and blast radius. Most of the party was badly injured or captured when I did that. Now looking at the skill, i shouldnt have been able to affect it, Disruption can only be used on items 40 cubic cm or less. But yeah. Getting back to Corjay's comment, this was just a good example of how psioncs can unbalance a game. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
October 21, 2007 - 2:06pm | I'm not so sure that's unbalanced. Can you not do the same with a pistol or rifle of some sort? Also Disruption is limited to inanimate objects (non-living), so it's not like you can explode someone's skull, and it's not like you'll always have a power pack to explode. Like with the space shuttle's foam, the Disruption isn't what killed those opponents and damaged the party. It was the explosion of the backpack, which I believe the Referee handled properly. That's just good ingenuity on the part of the Mentalist. Besides, you have to roll a success for it to even happen in the first place. Mentalist powers aren't like skills, where you can just assume they work under certain circumstances. You have to roll Mentalist abilities EVERY time. |
October 21, 2007 - 2:19pm | Another drawback of Mentalist is that you have to sacrifce STR in order to build a Mentalist. That's a serious drawback, and I think is quite balanced. You have to remember that unless you rolled gangbusters on both STR and LOG, your Mentalist is quite weak. Along those lines, the only way a non-devotee can increase his powers is by increasing his LOG, which gets expensive, as it only increases a single ability by 1 level (or gives you a starting level in a new ability) with every 5 points of LOG. |
October 21, 2007 - 3:32pm | What kind of referee would allow that powerful a character in the game to begin with?! Heh heh. Well, in both our defense, it was a first attempt by either of us with the Mentalist. And the mentalist ability I used was Disruption. Disruption will allow the character to explode inanimate object. If the object has any power in it, even 1 SEU, it is treated as a frag grenade. Since the focus of my attention was a power backpack that was practically full, the gm decided to amplify the damage and blast radius. Most of the party was badly injured or captured when I did that. Now looking at the skill, i shouldnt have been able to affect it, Disruption can only be used on items 40 cubic cm or less. But yeah. Getting back to Corjay's comment, this was just a good example of how psioncs can unbalance a game. I remember Disruption. Oh, how well do I remember Disruption. That's why it will never appear in any SF campaign I run as long as I draw breath. There's always that option...if you, as the referee, think a power's going to seriously unbalance a game, then you can always say,"that power doesn't exist in my game." Simple, clean, effective. I can also remember my first time as a referee...so I think I'll stay silent on this one.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
October 22, 2007 - 6:45pm | Changing subject: Many believe that Zebulon's Guide is a "rewrite" of Star Frontiers, but indicators in Zeb's itself suggest otherwise, such as the multiple references to Alpha Dawn. Why would they send the reader to Alpha Dawn if they were truly trying to replace Alpha Dawn? There are many references, and they all seem to indicate a cooperation between Zeb's and Alpha Dawn. One reference says that they included specific information in Zeb's to cut down on cross referencing between the two versions, but this only shows that the two books are meant to be used in tandum. To me, this suggest that the zeb's stuff was meant to be game play options, and not a complete replacement of the old rules. Is there anything you can quote from Zeb's that suggests it is meant to replace Alpha Dawn. Now I speak of the original book and not the Remastered version, as the Remastered version has an introduction not found in the original book. To me, the lack of introduction and the lack of completeness also suggest that it is not meant to replace Alpha Dawn in any way. Though a simple Foreward would have been nice. |
October 22, 2007 - 6:45pm | I think that Zebs was an attempt to refresh Star Frontiers and try to expand its customer base by using the Table Resolution system. After-all, Marvel Superheroes and Gamma World were using similar tables and had been for a while. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
October 22, 2007 - 6:47pm | That I can agree with. That's a likely scenario. |
October 23, 2007 - 2:41am | In Zeb's defense...I have to agree that it does not specifically say it is designed to replace. Okay, so perhaps the writers aimed to attract the more "upbeat hip" crowd with the new resolution system. After all, TSR pretty much invented the d20 system and further expanded that with their various d% games that followed D&D, perhaps they felt the table system was the next step. Perhaps the biggest let down was the promise of future volumes that never came to be, such as the casual mentioning of powered assault armor and cybernetics. It seems to me if they'd simply stuck with making the guide as an encyclopedia format rather than introducing new rules, it would have fared better. |
October 23, 2007 - 5:10am | Powered Assault Armor came in a Dragon article. The Dragon article came after they said they weren't going to make a second volume of Zeb's, even though Zeb's itself mentioned a future second volume. It was clearly cancelled because the first volume wasn't received well, but we did receive a treatment for Powered Assault Armor. |
October 23, 2007 - 6:23am | I think that Zebs was an attempt to refresh Star Frontiers and try to /snip/ undermine the masses, cause mass confusion, pop fighting parties, chip throwing contest break down the defense of those Alpha Dawn loyalist! introduce a flawed resolution system and laugh behind the curtain when it's used, ...the list goes on! what a success. in 2007 were still talking about it!  -w00t "that's what I'm talking 'bout Willis" |
October 23, 2007 - 6:32am | Sarcasm aside, until now, the community has been too small and controlled by one condescending person to discuss it so openly. Before the internet it wasn't as easy to openly discuss it. The fact that an SF2000 was created as inspired by Zeb's (and put together by so many) shows that there is plenty in Zeb's worth using and plenty of people willing to use those things. As I pointed out before, only the resolution system in Zeb's is worthless. Just because the book was done wrong doesn't mean it the whole thing should be dumped. Since we're past that part of the discussion already, I think we can move on to discussion of the finer details. |
