 October 4, 2007 - 7:42pm | Hi! I've played SF twice in the past 2 months, after 20 years of zip! I'm heading a game with my son and my best friend and his son. I 'levelled up' my problem solving and abstract thinking skills as a kid with D&D and Star Frontiers... Played D&D until I was baout 20.. Recently began again. Anyhow... I've decided to include some of the equipment form ShadowRun in Star Frontiers. There's A TON of cool cybergear in ShadowRun that offer a lot of new option for S.F... without as much complexity in the rules. I went through the equipment lists, where the same item was available (axes, bows, rifles, swords, etc.) and ran some averages to arrive at a flimsy conversion rate. I think S.F. has better playabilty than S.R. (Though it's cool), so I'm going to see what I can do to get the best of both worlds. Good luck to all! I'll be back! Miykayl -Solo Dei Gloria |
 October 4, 2007 - 8:09pm | That sounds interesting. The mechanics behind some of the game rules differ greatly, but technology is a conceptual thing that should port over to SF quite well. I'd like to see the equipment list you come up with when you're done :-) 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 4, 2007 - 8:29pm | We're working on a Cybernetics Handbook in the project pages, MadMiyk, if you would like to contribute your efforts. It's at http://starfrontiers.us/node/134 . I'll be contributing GURPS Cyberpunk to it. I was definitely hoping to get some Shadowrun materials in there. However, we won't be doing the magic side of things. Also, the genetics side of Shadowrun is welcome in the Gamma Dawn handbook at http://starfrontiers.us/node/1086 . It already has some Gamma World stuff and I'll be contributing GURPS Bio-Tech and a couple other systems to it. The focus for these is to make them uniquely Star Frontiers, taking only those things pertenant to Star Frontiers, and making mechanics that are familiar to Star Frontiers so that they don't feel too alien to the game. Whatever you can contribute would be awesome. |
October 4, 2007 - 8:27pm | Spiffy. :-) In response to your comments, I know the game mechanics of the imported equipment would have to be overhauled... And I agree that S.F. is no place for magic (one should simply play S.R. then, LOL). I'll check out hte Cybernetics link and see if I might be able to contribute. The website looks great, too. :-) |
October 4, 2007 - 8:30pm | Spiffy. :-) Thanks!In response to your comments, I know the game mechanics of the imported equipment would have to be overhauled... And I agree that S.F. is no place for magic (one should simply play S.R. then, LOL). I'll check out hte Cybernetics link and see if I might be able to contribute. The website looks great, too. :-) Yes - see the links and consider helping out - or even creating your own project if your vision of one of our projects differs. This site is all about collaborative creation of new SF material. I'm hoping it'll be a lot of fun! 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 4, 2007 - 8:32pm | I didn't realize you were logged in (I should've noticed your indicator). I edited my post a little. |
October 4, 2007 - 8:45pm | Yes, it sounds like you folks have it well under control. I've nver played GURPS and played Gamma World only a tiny bit many long years ago. So far, I hadn't considered bringing over all of the Matrix-surfing S.R. equipment, but rather the more mundane items that are easier to convert to S.F. Things like cybernetic eyeballs, skin pouches, cyber-ears, etc, don't have complex mechaincs. I am guessing htat most people who like S.F. aren't that interested in cyberspace navigation and combat. Role Playing is abstarct enough without further virtualizing it... "A virtual cyberspace world, within an imagined universe of a game played by pen-and-paper?" Cool? Sure, but not for everyone... Yep... Just give me my blaster and an explorer (OK, maybe a recoiless rifle mounted on that explorer) and let's tear things up. ;-) Congratulations on all of the great work happening here. Miykayl -Solo Dei Gloria |
October 4, 2007 - 10:00pm | The key thing about Star Frontiers is its simplicity and up-to-date science. Breaking things down to fine details is not the way Star Frontiers operates. Star Frontiers is about easy generation and play. However, converting systems takes a lot of work. First you gather all you can, then you convert the particulars to maintain the flavor of the new system, and then you cut it all back, throwing out anything that doesn't belong. For Star Frontiers that includes melding things together for better simplicity and ease of game play. While two things may work well in Star Frontiers, they may be better represented as a single item. A few times you might want to expand the details of something. The most important thing is maintaining the Star Frontiers flavor, otherwise it's not likely to ever be used by anyone. |
 October 5, 2007 - 6:16pm | I, too, am a big fan of of Shadowrun. I could probably have bought a motorcycle with the money I put into supplements. The biggest problem I see is SR sometimes goes a bit over the top with cyberware. It could be very easy to get stuck with overpowered players. This is where the Zebulon's guide comes in handy (sort of). In the skills section there was a difference indicated between bionics and cybernetics. Bionics seemed to be designated as simple replacements for lost body parts. On the other hand, cybernetics was used for cyborgs, which were definitely highly enhanced. But I think the real difference here is this: cyborgs are property. I think a distinction needs to be made between cyborgs and bionic-wielding citizens of the Frontier. There is a potentially dramatic cultural bias against cybernetics, almost as if those in the Frontier don't trust them. Going by Shadowrun's cybernetics, I'd suggest things like simple, non-enhanced cyberlimbs, eyes with no modifications, etc. be considered bionics. These are accepted by the Frontier as necessary and acceptable in the same way a pacemaker is in our society. Some minor enhancements, such as low-light vision, would be acceptable for those in military type professions (Star Law, UPF, mercenaries, etc.), but these people would be very intimidating to the average Frontier denizen. For this reason, criminals would likely have such modifications. More drastic and obvious enhancements, such as dermal plating and cyberguns, would throw a person smack dab into the category of being a cybrog. At that point they are no longer citizens but property. And it is important to note that there are no free cyborgs, just rogue ones. Rogue cyborgs would be considered highly dangerous, hunted by Star Law, and likely have huge bounties on their heads. Of course, they could also find reluctant acceptance in certain criminal orginizations. Out of the cultural, I think anything beyond standard replacement limbs and low-light vision style enhancements would require a parabattery of some sort. This could be the hard distinction between bionics and cybernetics -- if you need a parabattery you're a cyborg. Period. |
October 6, 2007 - 2:36am | I've been meaning to do this study of Kimber Eastland's idea of bionics and cybernetics for a while. To understand what was meant by Bionics and Cybernetics, we have to look at these sources in light of the two skills in Zeb's: Bionics and Cybernetics. A survey of Zeb's will be the most enlightening way to examine what was meant. The Bionics skill says: "The most common uses of bionics are as replacements for lost limbs or organs." Zeb's suggests that both bionics and cybernetics have progits. The progit assigned to Bionics is a Type-B progit called a Bio-center. It says that there is 1 progit for each type of body part, saying: "Each Bio-Center progit can control similar bionic parts: one for legs, one for arms, one for senses, one for up to four internal artificial organs, etc." Progit Type-D provides Calc-boost to a bionic brain, saying "A character using the Calc-All, Calc-Boost and Master-Comp progits together, and with the proper type and amount of data, can work out the probabilities of many events." Zeb's further describes bionics by saying "Bionic legs, arms, hands, etc. work smoother than most people might expect, but they are still not completely natural in their actions or in the user's control...With a little practice and this progit, no one can tell if a limb, eye, or other bionic part is real or not." So clearly bionics represents the ability to replace body parts with near identical and even enhanced body parts, but nothing beyond that. "Bionic optics" in the Infrared High Resolution Optics, suggest that bionics can provide extra-human abilities to the body part. The Cybernetics skill says: "This skill is quite advanced and is used when a character has enough experience to start building cyborgs (cybernetic organisms)." You have to have 3 levels in the Bionics skill (important to attaching computer-aided mechanisms to the body) before you can acquire the cybernetics skill. The Tachton Instruments mega-corporation description refers to a cybernetic "theory" predating the invention of cybernetics. They also produce bionic body parts. I thought at first that "Parkinson Cybernetics" may have been a nod to Keith Parkinson, but Parkinson did no cybernetics paintings that I'm aware of other than the one he was commissioned to do for GURPS in the 90's. Just to let you know I reviewed every detail. Now we go further back to references in Star Frontiers literature (None exist after 1985). Zeb's mentions "cybernetically controlled creatures". Assault on Starship Omicron mentions the cybodragon and calls it a "cybernetic omnivore". The description calls them "Sathar creations" and says that the cybodragon was altered by the Sathar for battle. Its enhancements are described this way: "Its eyes have been replaced by two laser rifles set on 10 SEU. A flamethrower is installed in its mouth. The cybodragon also has metal tentacles as melee weapons. Electronic sensors serve the same function as eyes." Slavebots are also mentioned. Volturnus, Planet of Mystery says: "Slavebots are cybernetic combinations of living beings and machines. The biological part of the slavebot is the remains of a captured enemy. Most of the brain has been replaced by a cybernetic implant. The slavebot is controlled by a disembodied Sathar brain kept in special liquid solution." Starspawn of Volturnus says: "The Eorna will . . . capture and take cybernetic control of various dangerous beasts who can be used in the battle against the Sathar." In Bugs in the System, Baralou is described as a "cybernet robot" or "cybot". The term "cyborg" is never used in Star Frontiers before Zeb's. It describes a cybot as "a combination of organic and mechanical components." In the article Tanks Alot!, 1985, Dragon Magazine provides a "cyberlink" and says: "This is a direct mental hookup (by computer) to a weapon to control its firing." The article A Shot In the Arm says: "All robots have brains, but a noncybernetic robot?'s brain is a computer." From this study, I get no indicator that says the cybernetics MUST control the organism, but can be used TO control the organism. What I get is the sense that cybernetics are the interconnectivity between external and internal sources. Let's analyze the view of bionics and cybernetics as viewed in the early 80's. We have to remember that Kimber Eastland did not improve on Star Frontiers tech. She only provided more variety. This suggests her knowledge of such things was likely mainstream. For bionics, we have to remember that people were still thinking of the Six Million Dollar Man and the Bionic Woman when they thought of Bionics. Even if she went beyond mainstream, she likely got her knowledge from Omni Magazine. In those days, Omni was the respected authority in all things robotics. Not even Time Magazine could keep ahead of them. The Omni Book of Computers & Robots gives the most up-to-date view of Robotics and Computers in 1983. That book accurately and minutely predicted the technological revolution, and stuff in that book is coming true as we speak. In those days, bionics represented replaced body parts, but only as they exactly replicate or enhance that body part's natural abilities. Cybernetics was a much less used term in those days. Shadowrun and GURPS: Cyberpunk have not yet been created by this time and cybernetics fiction was still an underground concept up until 1984. The book Neuromancer had just been released the year before Zeb's and is singlehandedly responsible for the Cybernetics revolution in literature. Kimber, being a big gamer and an avid reader had likely read the book and was anxious to be the first to produce mechanics based around it, but didn't have the chance to fit it into Zeb's. Neuromancer identifies cybernetics as the ability to interface computers and computer-operated machines, which seems to be in line with what the Star Frontiers creators may have had in mind. My conclusion is that the view of bionics and cybernetics were not much different back then as they are now. We just simply know more about them now. So in conclusion, bionics represents replaced body parts, while cybernetics represents the ability to interact on a biological level with external computers and requires replacement of at least some of the brain with cybernetic implants. No mention is made of the need for an external power source (such as a parabattery) in Star Frontiers or anywhere else, thought they do not exclued this possibility. Likely, both bionics and cybernetics would need such a powersource, not one over the other. There is little difference between these two technologies other than complexity and purpose. |
October 5, 2007 - 9:46pm | Blackchip, I like your ideas on how to limit cyberware power, and how to explain those limitations within the bounds of S.F. culture. But I think the parabattery test may not work so well. It'd not likely be hard with advanced technology to get cyberware, like a replacement eyeball, to get its power directly form the body... or perhaps by a small atomic battery, like the beta-batteries that may show up in hearing aids soon. I also completely agree, Corjay, that simplicity is a thing of beauty in S.F... and is the reason why I'd rather play S.F. than S.R. But some types of equipment would simply and absolutely be available that were not conceived in the 1980's... Shadowrun is much more up-to-date. On an related-aside, think of Star Wars episode IV... Where Vader is scouring the ship for the plans to the deathstar. They could gave beamed the plans to the Alderan, or made a billion copies and sent them everywhere.... the notion that the plans could be contained only in a single system, like a droid, is a very dated notion. Back to my point, batteries that generate electricity themselves with 20-year lifespans are in our near future... So when we play, power clips are still 20 SEU, but they can be recharged. Belt packs recharge themselves with 8-hours of non-use. They also have recepticles for 2 clips (giving the belt a maximum storage of 90 SEUs). If the belt is left with 2 empty clips, for about 16 hours, the belt will recharge itself and the 2 clips... Please note that I have had to modify encounters because of my players' newfound energy surplus, but for my campaigns, I think it is reasonable and realistic. Also, magnagoggles have magnify, rangefind, remote thermometer, thermal IR, active IR, and UV modes... because you can buy almost all of that today. Uh, those are the only significant changes I have made. (Power backpacks recharge 100 SEUs in 8 hours. I haven't decided f they should have 2 clip-recharges, or 4). Balance issues are resolved because the opponents also have the benefits of these changes. I know these changes may not work at all for some others. And I understand. Laser fights are ferocious now, and dialing a pistol to 5 or more is standard procedure for anyone with a power belt or backpack... Here is some info on real battery progress: "New Nuclear Battery Runs 10 Years, 10 Times More Powerful" http://www.physorg.com/news4081.html :-) |
October 5, 2007 - 10:06pm | WOWzer that was a lot of reading :-) This is probably the biggest conundrum about Star Frontiers. Just how much of the flavor of the setting is wrapped up in its 80's view of the future? I often wonder abou this. With supercapacitors and nanotube-filament battery cells, we have (right now) transportable power systems that exceed Star Frontiers capabilities. If we carry our current technological development forward into an imagined future, energy should be even more portable and should have longevities measured in decades rather than hours. But how much would this change the feel of SF? I personally like the flavor of the naive 80's view of the game. It's part of its charm. Corporate wars and espionage also link with that era. Part of me says that any consideration of technology has to adhere to this just to maintain the flavor of the setting. But the more techie side of me (remember - I'm an engineer and I develop automation/robotics/machinery and program plcs and computers... I live technology) wants to give all of Star Frontiers a technological overhaul to make it less assaulting to my understanding of science and tech. Now you see why I never spearheaded a cybernetics handbook project. I can't decide which way to lean on such tech. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 5, 2007 - 10:10pm | I forgot to consider Gamm World in that analysis. However, Gamma World does not effect the final conclusion, as Gamma World also does not define cybernetics as controlling the organism, but demonstrates it to be any biological enhancement, replacement, or attachmenet using computer technology. |
October 5, 2007 - 11:43pm | WOWzer that was a lot of reading :-) Balance. I think we can do both. We just look at it from a knowledge standpoint. Let's say we lived back in the 80's again, and having knowledge of the future, how do we perceive and use that knowledge? Forget that we have the experiences of the future. We're in the 80's and know about the tech that gets developed in the future, but don't really know the specifics.This is probably the biggest conundrum about Star Frontiers. Just how much of the flavor of the setting is wrapped up in its 80's view of the future? I often wonder abou this. With supercapacitors and nanotube-filament battery cells, we have (right now) transportable power systems that exceed Star Frontiers capabilities. If we carry our current technological development forward into an imagined future, energy should be even more portable and should have longevities measured in decades rather than hours. But how much would this change the feel of SF? I personally like the flavor of the naive 80's view of the game. It's part of its charm. Corporate wars and espionage also link with that era. Part of me says that any consideration of technology has to adhere to this just to maintain the flavor of the setting. But the more techie side of me (remember - I'm an engineer and I develop automation/robotics/machinery and program plcs and computers... I live technology) wants to give all of Star Frontiers a technological overhaul to make it less assaulting to my understanding of science and tech. Now you see why I never spearheaded a cybernetics handbook project. I can't decide which way to lean on such tech. We can start from there, allowing us to retain the 80's flavor while remaining true to the facts. At least, that's how I've been handling it. Simplicity is the biggest part of how I try to maintain the flavor. We also have to remember that if Star Frontiers had survived, it would have evolved with the technology. If the original flavor and general mechanics were maintained at the same time, how would it look? I think it would look just like I've described. |
October 6, 2007 - 2:37am | Also, I forgot to check, but Parkinson DID do the cybodragon image. So it is possible that "Parkinson Cybernetics" is indeed a nod, but no way to be sure without talking to Kimber. |
 October 10, 2007 - 3:22pm | Yo - If you want to add doo-dads, cybernetic or otherwise, GO AHEAD. Just watch your game balance and cheese factors. From where some of this discussion is going, your PCs might be so juiced up with Lee Major we-can-rebuild-him type stuff that every time you roll the dice you will have to make that bionic man sound! |
October 10, 2007 - 3:34pm | One more thing - A word about the '80s... Don't concern yourselves with that. If we are going to revive this game, we will need young folks who were in Pampers in the '80s. The only thing they remember from that time is that bottles have been replaced by sippy cups. You can maintain your vaunted "80's feel" through your descriptions and artwork and still have all of the modern stuff that they did not think about in 1983. Why not? If you like the gritty, greasy technicians as much as I do, leave them gritty and greasy, just like I do. Put your Humans in parachute pants and have your Yazirians wear leg warmers for all I care! |
 October 14, 2007 - 5:41pm | Hmmmm, 2d10s or 1x10^19 d6s? Yeah, I definitely say Star Frontiers is more playable than Shadowrun. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
October 14, 2007 - 5:52pm | On an related-aside, think of Star Wars episode IV... Where Vader is scouring the ship for the plans to the deathstar. They could gave beamed the plans to the Alderan, or made a billion copies and sent them everywhere.... the notion that the plans could be contained only in a single system, like a droid, is a very dated notion. Will of the Force thing, that. 'Sides, Leia, of all people, knew Palpatine wouldn't hesitate to snuff out as many planets as he could to stamp out all copies of those plans. Including Alderaan. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 October 15, 2007 - 2:45pm | Another thing I would add about power sources: mass. I had a discussion in one of my play-by-post forum games this year about this. The synopsis was why would 5 powerclips, which have no mass according to the rulebooks (I made the provision long ago that 5 clips of any sort massed 1kg) yet a 100SEU powerbackpack, which holds the same energy as five "massless" powerclips, has to weigh 10kg? I made a revision that a beltpack masses 1kg and the backpack masses 2kg...with the obvious difference between them and the clips is the multiple ports and connection points along with the hardware to relay the energy from source to each port. I summarily reduced the mass of parabatteries as well to 10, 20, 40, & 80kg for type 1, 2, 3, & 4 batteries respectively. |
 October 16, 2007 - 4:54am | I like those reduced mass totals, Shack. I think I'll yoink those. For some reason when I think about 10kg power backpacks I think of the Ghostbusters... If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. -- Carl Sagan |
October 16, 2007 - 7:44am | Another thing I would add about power sources: mass. I had a discussion in one of my play-by-post forum games this year about this. The synopsis was why would 5 powerclips, which have no mass according to the rulebooks (I made the provision long ago that 5 clips of any sort massed 1kg) yet a 100SEU powerbackpack, which holds the same energy as five "massless" powerclips, has to weigh 10kg? I made a revision that a beltpack masses 1kg and the backpack masses 2kg...with the obvious difference between them and the clips is the multiple ports and connection points along with the hardware to relay the energy from source to each port. I summarily reduced the mass of parabatteries as well to 10, 20, 40, & 80kg for type 1, 2, 3, & 4 batteries respectively. Shadow, this is the second time I've read your idea...and I like. Can I add this to the House Rules Wiki? |
October 16, 2007 - 1:36pm | Go for it. You probably read it in the Space Pirates forum, Art and I had the aforementioned discussion about it there. LOL @ ghostbusters...yeah I had thought that too back in the day. 10kg...what is that, like 22 pounds? Cripes, that's like three or four car batteries strapped to your back! |
October 16, 2007 - 2:43pm | Why not do an article on it? |
October 16, 2007 - 3:35pm | Why not do an article on it? on what? where? |
October 16, 2007 - 3:59pm | The power sources. Between Shadow Shack and Rum Rogue, there appears to be a lot of chat going on about power sources. It would be nice to see a comprehensive article on the topic, regarding size, power usage, recharging, etc. |
October 16, 2007 - 5:06pm | Where should that be submitted? The Star Frontiersman section forum? |
October 16, 2007 - 6:01pm | Where should that be submitted? The Star Frontiersman section forum? You can just email it to me if you want to write up an article on such thingies.... I think it'd be nice! Referee@StarFrontiersman.comI haven't really come up with a system for allowing submissions to a project manager of a project... yet. To be honest, I think very few projects would require that feature, that's why I haven't built it yet haha 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
