 December 19, 2017 - 6:18am | So as we all know the equipment lists were writen by Yazirians for Yazirians with out much consideration for the other Core 4 races (except their heroes the Humans). While working on a little project and wanting to include ground cycles I found that a ground cycle could have two passengers. Since your average ground cycle is 1.7 meters long and your average Vrusk is 1.5 meters long, how do you fit two of them on a ground cycle? Also how does a Vrusk biker even fit his little Dralasite buddy on one with him? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 January 19, 2018 - 7:11pm | I've always house-ruled a vrusk acceleration seat (or any vehicular seat beyond a cycle for that matter) as an elongated "banana" type seat with a reversed backrest that the vrusk leans forward onto. Having double jointed shoulders means they can fasten a four-point safety harness/belt behind their backs with ease. Granted this all gets thrown out for cycles, the last thing you want is to be fastend to a bike as it loses control and flips around the ground. It's the one vehicle you actually want to be "ejected" from because, well...it weighs more than you and lacks the protective cage that an enclosed vehicle offers. Even so, the actual seat does not have to be the full 1.5m in length, it only needs to be as long as the abdominal section the legs attach to. Still, that 1.5m length means it is poised atop said vehicle so yes...it does have to be a little longer than the base humancentric cycles. This can be remedied by extending the swingarm for the rear wheel and plopping a longer body piece over the tail section of the frame. Mind you this is easily done at the dealer rather than the factory, it's a bolt-on application (along with the additional six footpegs in my aforementioned Vruskan Operator Package) which can be an additional cost levied at destination (AKA the dealership). Since there are no actual real world examples of this --- there are actual extended swingarm bikes out there but none with the extended vruskan seat --- I posted a couple pics here. First is a stock model and below that is an extended swingarm version of the same bike that I photoshopped the seat & tailpiece into a vrusk-like solo seat version (visualize three more footpegs on each side, not depicted). Standard/Humancentric Model:  Extended Vruskan version:  |
January 20, 2018 - 10:28am | Okay you made me do this. I did not want too but I am going FULL FANTASY. The comparison we can make is that Humans, Vrusk and ground cycles fully compare to Fantasy Elves, Centaurs and horses. Please show me pictures of Centaurs riding horses. How about Centaurs riding in enclosed carriages, open top wagons, comfortably sitting in chairs, or doing anything bulit for Elves who have two legs and a butt and not four legs and a 1.5m long body can. Again going for realism here and realistically I cannot see Yazirians and Vrusk jumping on and off each others ground cycles. The body structures are just too different.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 20, 2018 - 10:39am | If vrusk were half-motorcycle your Centaur analogy would carry some weight. I suppose I need to throw in bulb-type hand grips ontp the handlebars of a vrusk dealer add-on package. |
January 20, 2018 - 5:35pm | Its the basic body type. Both Vrusk and Centaurs have long horizontal main body cavities. This anatomical difference makes them both require very different arrangements for them to use certain equipment and furnishings. While we are at it, anyone know where a Centaurs' heart and lungs are located? Never really got that. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 20, 2018 - 9:13pm | Its the basic body type. Both Vrusk and Centaurs have long horizontal main body cavities. This anatomical difference makes them both require very different arrangements for them to use certain equipment and furnishings.
Horses do not need to sit or lay down (although they can and do), they lock their joints so they can sleep standing up. Centaurs are wilderness beings so they do not require the same creature comforts their human halves normally would. As such, they're their own form of transportation. Meanwhile their human half manipulates and utilizes equipment, so they use humancentric goods. Hooves are only good for three things: walking, running, and occassionally getting trimmed (after all they're just glorified toenails). While we are at it, anyone know where a Centaurs' heart and lungs are located?
That one's easy, just before the stomach & intestines.
Ironically the same can be said for other mythological creatures such as Harpies and Lamias. Throw in other hybrids and the questions continue, like Memen/Mermaids: do their mammal halves get impregnated or do their fish halves lay eggs to be fertilized later? Or ettins, chimerae, & hydras: which one of the heads actually draws air into the lungs or how does their diaphragm control speech & breath weapons between multiple heads? I did find this as an answer to the anatomical question. Interesting and somewhat unexpected. |
 January 21, 2018 - 11:43am | I Prefer Shadow's sollutions on the issue, not really sure where Rattraveller is going with this- not a criticism just not really following where he's trying to go. As i understand Shadow's sollutions: There are some concessions to generic design but by and large there is a vrusk modification package that is a simple bolt on at the dealer not manufacturer. this is simple enough all it needs is a cost. but what would be the penalty for a vrusk operating a not vrusk bike? -X% to all skill and abiltity checks while doing this? or no he cant do it at all? I'm for a penalty and he is more than welcome to ride a non vrusk bike and be uncomfortable. Discomfort, of course has no game effect but a penalty to skill and ability checks seems very much in line with the game mechanics. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 22, 2018 - 6:37pm | Take acceleration couches. Vrusk cannot lie down. How is their torso supported by an acceleration couch design for one of the other Core Four races?
Are you claiming that vrusk are permanently fixed at a 90º torso-to-abdomen position? If so where is this sourced? I ask as there's plenty of artwork --- canon & fandom alike --- depicting otherwise, and if this is actually cited somewhere official then it's physiologically impractical. By impractical I mean beyond the point of Zeb's absurdly ridiculous grade. In other words, if it's in Zeb's and nowhere else then it's probably safe to ignore it. ;) |
January 23, 2018 - 7:33pm | Okay wording not the greatest. Vrusk cannont lie on their backs on acceleration couces. If they bend forward they are lying on forward. While not the full length of them they are now about 2 meters long making them about the same length of Humans and Yazirains. So good so far everyone can fit on the same acceleration couch and generic lovers go that works. Except it doesn't. The problem comes in orientation. Humans and Yazirians lie back while Vrusk lie forward. Contouring and placing controls for use by all of them doesn't work unless you duplicate the controls which isn't very practical. Restraints are another issue. While Vrusk can reach any part of their bodies the vast differences in the body types mean they cannont use the same types of restraints as Humans and Yazirians. They also need separate leg restraints. What you thought their legs could just be allowed to flap around? Human and Yazirian legs are held on the couch not our good friends the Vrusk. Now let's get into padding. Humans and Yazirians are soft on the outside and soft on the inside. Vrusk are hard on the outside and reinforced on the inside. Soft padded acceleration couches built for squishy Humans and Yazirians don't work for Vrusk. They require more contoured seating that is going to not allow them to flap around or slide back and forth on soft leather seating. Thought I was done? Way wrong. Now on to communication. Humans and Yazirians love to yell at each other. Screaming during acceleration is always exciting and dramatic. Much of Vrusk communication is non-verbal and when you are strapped into an acceleration couch not able to see your fellow Vrusk it drastically restricts your ability to convey information. Especially if you are face forward when your torso is lying down forward. Shape is another item but rather minor. Are your acceleration couches flat beds or are they more chair like? Flat beds can work somewhat for generic but if chair shaped then generic is definitely out. Don't give me that generic furniture shape. Padded chairs designed to help living beings deal with acceleration of multiple G-forces don't get to be transformers. Care to think of how an acceleration couch for Dralasites would work? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 23, 2018 - 11:36pm | So they can straighten out to a flat position but they can't roll over to lie on their backs? I don't recall seeing that cited anywhere either. Yeah, I get that they can't fit on a standard 2m bunk or bed or couch that the other three races can. But they can certainly fit onto a 3m bunk or bed or couch when stretched out. I'm not sure how any of this relates to cycles though. Not unless you're trying to replicate the vruskan version of Rollie Free breaking the 150mph barrier back in the 1940's...  ...which goes right back to my earlier comment about stuff feasibly hanging out past the rear wheel.  |
January 24, 2018 - 7:57am | Okay wording not the greatest. Vrusk cannont lie on their backs on acceleration couces. two things: your bold type makes it look like you are arguing that vrusk cant lie on their backs, I dont think that is what you mean and I'm pretty sure its not supported anywhere And I generally think that PGC and TransTravel worked out a generic one size fits all transformer acceleration chair for space ships that reconfigures. it makes sense with the Frontier being what it is. Care to think of how an acceleration couch for Dralasites would work? The question here really should be does hi G forces turn a dralasite into a puddle? Again not supported but up for interpretation. I'll say maybe. Looking at how technology in the real world will have several different and diverse applications, who knew that radar technology would lead to cooking frozen food in a box on your counter, so I think the same sort of thing happens in the Frontier. I've said it before that the inertia screen technology screams for other applications like reducing G forces in fighters and star ships or anti-collision systems. This would be an application of the underlying principles and tech not simply "just wear the magic inertia screen and you'll be alright" Yes there is a certain amount of hand wavium going on here but it is a game. so the simplest least complex solution is that chairs on star ships are reconfigurable (and possibly require a drop down back rest that retracts upward to the ceiling when not being used by vrusk) and acceleration chairs/couches/saddles also incorporate an application of the inertia screen technology to reduce G forces on the occupant such that the G forces experienced are not so great as to overcome an dralasite's ability to hold himself in shape or to injure the more rigid species of the core four. I'm going with the dealer bolt on package that shadow has proposed for motorcycles and will enforce a penalty for any skill or ability check for characters using a motorcycle not configured for them. Flat road riding does not require skill or ability checks but combat, maneuvers, road hazards etc will. Since its a straight up standard bolt on conversion kit you dont need to be a technition to do it- this is not repairing machinery but a technician could certainly do the job faster- (similar to the diference between me or a mechanic doing work on my car- i take typically 2-3 times longer than an experienced mechanic) I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 24, 2018 - 8:13am | Where I would concede a point to rat t is fighter craft. but the standard chair which is "L" shaped with a high back and short seat could rotate in a clockwise manner so that the high back is under the vrusk abdomen and the short seat now in front of them. they would then require a back piece that lock into place supporting their back and holding their abdomen down. Again I'd advocate for the inertia tech making fighter ops less onerous for the pilot Ejection seat and parachute? I beleieve KHs states that the cockpit of a fighter ejects as a life pod? so ejection seat not neccessary. On the other hand I might also rule that by and large the vrusk avoid fighter opps prefering gun boats like the assault scout. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 24, 2018 - 10:34am | I answered the acceleration chair earlier in this thread as well, why it's being brought up again is beyond me. The original qustion was how to make a ground cycle fit a vrusk and a passenger, which was answered numerous times in numerous posts. Here's the Cliff's Notes version, all in one convenient place: Any vruskan cycle package (hover or ground) would include an extended swingarm and seat/tailpiece that moves both the rear wheel/hoverfans further back along with the longer seat section to make room for the operator's abdomen. A seat made of breathable material (similar to dralasite clothing so the vrusk can breath) is affixed to said extended bodywork. A flip-up passenger seat poised over the main seat that the vrusk abdomen slips under will accomodate a passenger. Bulb-type hand grips, eight footpegs or a set of extended floorboards, and an extended pair of rear footpegs for any passenger round out the package. I figure the cost to be akin to space suits: an additional 500Cr and the package (supplied by the manufacturer) is easily added at the dealer. Option B of course is a vruskan company that only sells vrusk cycles already equipped as such, offering humancentric operator packages at the same cost. Obviously this would only fly on vruskan worlds, but it's an equally valid option B. Option C would be option B is on the vruskan worlds while option A is everywhere else. Also noteworthy, for those that haven't absorbed it yet: the vrusk package is for vrusk, the standard package is for humans, drals, & yazirians. It's two different packages, not a universal package. I'm not sure how that tangent came to be, because the repeated "vruskan operator package" pretty much says it all. As for the new direction this thread is taking, the OP has ideas about vruskan physiology that don't seem to be supported by canon material and is applying those ideas to everything in the game. Perhaps it's best to start a project based on vruskan anatomy and equipment that coincides with it. |
January 25, 2018 - 4:36am | As for the new direction this thread is taking, the OP has ideas about vruskan physiology that don't seem to be supported by canon material and is applying those ideas to everything in the game. Perhaps it's best to start a project based on vruskan anatomy and equipment that coincides with it. that would be the core four project- already exists. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 25, 2018 - 8:12am | At this point we have settled into the US government positions and no one is budging. Go generic if it saves you bookkeeping but I still go with four races with very different body types which need equipment specialized to them. While we have megacorps to make generic, most planets are populated by only one race in the vast majority so generic equipment would hinder sales not improve them. The real world example is standard versus metric. Yes metric things are sold in America but what do Americans usually buy? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 30, 2018 - 6:23pm | The real world example is standard versus metric. Yes metric things are sold in America but what do Americans usually buy?
I have a set of SAE tools. If there was a cash reward for locating them it might take a few days...meanwhile my metrics get plenty of use and often get replaced (particularly the 10mm wrenches & sockets, you just can't have enough of those). Even my JIS screwdrivers get more use than the others. Fun Fact: Victory Motorcycles (now defunct, parent company Polaris bought the Indian brand and nixed their home-grown brand in 2017) was a US made vehicle whose every fastener was metric. Harley Davidson's VRSC line (V-Rod) is also metric, as is their new Street 500 & 750 bikes that are made in India. IIRC their electric bike is also metric. |
 February 1, 2018 - 8:09am | Great, so you agree that a Vrusk ground cycle has to be specifically made for Vrusk and cannot be used by the other three Core Races. The extensive modifications and custom items make it more expensive and something Humans, Yazirians and Dralasites would not pay to have. Now we can move on to the next question. How do Yazirians keep from flying off ground cycles when the draft fills their skin flaps? Yes, I think most of us here would recognize that Frontier equipment needs extensive modifications for any of the Core Four races to operate properly. I imagine a Vrusk bike might have some kind of air scoops and a piping system to direct fresh air to their abdomens -- not to mention the fact they face problems in normal enclosed ground cars that are made for Humans only. Also, the Vrusk also have an internal skeleton and are not truly insects. One would think, as Shadow Shack mentioned, they would have a bit of flexibility with their bodies, exoskeleton or not. Joe Cabadas |
February 3, 2018 - 8:08pm | As with all things the differences in the Core Four races can make them almost impossible to work together. Take traffic lights or any kind of signage. Dralasites cannot see color. They can distinguish between light and dark but no colors. So signs and traffic signals in color do not really work for them. Vrusk on the other hand have compound eyes. They see thing differently. Exactly how differently is up for debate but we can go with a traffic light or sign will need to take this difference in to its design or many accidents will occur. We left the handlebars out of the discussion but since all of the Core Four have different hands; Dralasites = Tentacles, Humans = Human, Vrusk = Circular with no thumb, Yazirian = an extra jiont with longer fingers. How would the handlebar controls be made universal for these differences? Same thing for grips and triggers on weapons. There is much more like basic shooting requires putting the stock of a rifle type into your shoulder. Do Dralasites have shoulders? Spent shells eject from weapons. How do Yazirians stop them from burning their patagium? Humans have many different cultures. What is Okay in one culture is heresy in another. Take a look at what is legal and illegal in the US, UK and Japan. Products will need to take all these Human cultures into their designs or risk boycotts or worse. Add some others if you like. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 3, 2018 - 9:36pm | As with all things the differences in the Core Four races can make them almost impossible to work together. Take traffic lights or any kind of signage. Dralasites cannot see color. They can distinguish between light and dark but no colors. So signs and traffic signals in color do not really work for them. Vrusk on the other hand have compound eyes. They see thing differently. Exactly how differently is up for debate but we can go with a traffic light or sign will need to take this difference in to its design or many accidents will occur. We left the handlebars out of the discussion but since all of the Core Four have different hands; Dralasites = Tentacles, Humans = Human, Vrusk = Circular with no thumb, Yazirian = an extra jiont with longer fingers. How would the handlebar controls be made universal for these differences? Same thing for grips and triggers on weapons. There is much more like basic shooting requires putting the stock of a rifle type into your shoulder. Do Dralasites have shoulders? Spent shells eject from weapons. How do Yazirians stop them from burning their patagium? Humans have many different cultures. What is Okay in one culture is heresy in another. Take a look at what is legal and illegal in the US, UK and Japan. Products will need to take all these Human cultures into their designs or risk boycotts or worse. Add some others if you like. Dralasites have tentacles? where have I been for 35 years? Art work supports something else spent shells burn the pataquim of yazirians? really? who says? US, Japan< and UK what is that? I though the setting took place in a spiral galaxy not our own so how is US, UK, and Japan relevant:? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 3, 2018 - 10:38pm | We left the handlebars out of the discussion No we didn't, much like your repeating pattern since the first response, you simply ignored it once again. Seven posts ago, I'll highlight the already highlighted part you disregarded: The original qustion was how to make a ground cycle fit a vrusk and a passenger, which was answered numerous times in numerous posts. Here's the Cliff's Notes version, all in one convenient place: Any vruskan cycle package (hover or ground) would include an extended swingarm and seat/tailpiece that moves both the rear wheel/hoverfans further back along with the longer seat section to make room for the operator's abdomen. A seat made of breathable material (similar to dralasite clothing so the vrusk can breath) is affixed to said extended bodywork. A flip-up passenger seat poised over the main seat that the vrusk abdomen slips under will accomodate a passenger. Bulb-type hand grips, eight footpegs or a set of extended floorboards, and an extended pair of rear footpegs for any passenger round out the package. I figure the cost to be akin to space suits: an additional 500Cr and the package (supplied by the manufacturer) is easily added at the dealer. Option B of course is a vruskan company that only sells vrusk cycles already equipped as such, offering humancentric operator packages at the same cost. Obviously this would only fly on vruskan worlds, but it's an equally valid option B. Option C would be option B is on the vruskan worlds while option A is everywhere else. Also noteworthy, for those that haven't absorbed it yet: the vrusk package is for vrusk, the standard package is for humans, drals, & yazirians. It's two different packages, not a universal package. I'm not sure how that tangent came to be, because the repeated "vruskan operator package" pretty much says it all. I'd address the color blindness vs lights and signs, however based on the quoted-again numerous responses to the vrusk-cycle, I already know how this will go... |
February 4, 2018 - 7:28am | Sorry I do not reread the entire discussion every time I post something. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 4, 2018 - 11:39am | Sorry I do not reread the entire discussion every time I post something.
It's not a matter of re-reading an entire discussion prior to posting. Go back to the first response in this thread --- a rather detailed answer both featuring description and illustrations/photos, to which you immediately responded (meaning as the second response in the thread) "thanks but you dodged the question." As a pattern that has progressed through each and every page of this thread, I have to question if you're reading anything at all before posting. Seriously, it's enough to detract from participating in a thread. |
 February 4, 2018 - 5:12pm | I would be leary of citing SF art for anything rules related. The art often does not match the fiction. The huge holes in Yazarian patagium, Sathar always standing on their lower tentacles, three-legged Dralazites with two arems being the norm, etc. The cycle counters, hover and not are another case of this. As demonstrated upthread. I think the flip-seat is an elegant solution to the issue of Vrusk riders. But in the end, I think the anatomical differences between the core four are going to make truly universal design require smart adaptive devices that alter shape depending on the species of the user. |
February 4, 2018 - 5:27pm | As Shadow has forgotten probably because he didn't reread the original posting. The original question was not that the Vrusk could not ride the standard bike. It was that they could not have a passengerwith them on a ground cycle be it Dralasite, Yazirian or Human and especially Vrusk because of body length. (Go to the top of the page and read it). Several times I have stated that if you want the generic then use the generic. I was looking for more realism. Apparently disagreeing with the generic use of canon equipment is a crime or else people would have read what I wrote and stopped following this thread unless they wished to contribute to the asked question. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 4, 2018 - 7:25pm | I've explained the passenger issue several times over, including in the original first response and once more in the final Cliff's Notes compilation where you missed one of the handlebar references...and once again the passenger issue. |
February 5, 2018 - 7:23am | You win. See you won, now you can go tell everyone you won and never post on this thread again. I am sure this has improved your life greatly. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
February 5, 2018 - 10:10am | I'm at a loss to understand the arguement here. One person wants a more species specific package for a cycle and another person has proposed a very reasonable vrusk mod based off an exisiting Sf system- the vacuum suit which has the virtue of being consitent with the system as a whole. and yet we're getting heated here? Is there an arguement for 4 separate species packages to modify cycles? I dont see the need because 2 of the core four clearly have similar anatomy and the drals can stretch/ or modify to suit. not even sure what a dral mod to the cycle would look like. Frankly I would allow the dral to operate a vrusk mod cylce without any penalty just because of thier special ability. And I can see Pan Gal pushing the generic one size fits 3 with the dealer sold vrusk mod package rather than wanting to have the same cycle engineered for 4 different species if the company didn't have to. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 5, 2018 - 12:35pm | It has nothing to do with winning or losing. You just keep resorting to the same questions and bringing up issues that have already been answered and then ask for contributions to the thread as if that hasn't happened yet, starting with the original response. Anyone that reads the thread through its entirety will see that repetition over and over again. Now if you have some sort of attention deficit disorder or other parallel issue then I can understand the pattern, and I would certainly be able to work around that knowing if it was an issue. But if that's not the case, constantly asking the same questions as if they've never been answered is a self-derailing motive that doesn't serve any useful purpose. |
March 23, 2018 - 2:07pm | I found the answer to the question of "how dralasites ride a ground cycle":  |
