 October 1, 2017 - 7:42am | Here's what we have by the book: By the book (all three paragraphs detailing space station design) the smallest Plain-Jane space station (SS:1) is a 200m ring (twice the diameter of a HS:20 ship) and can dock anything up to HS:6 in its hub while the largest is a 1200meter ring that can accomodate "any" size ship in its hub. The only hard rules here are the station diameters being 200m X the station size and a chart detailing what size craft can be accomodated by each station size. That's it. Page 56 of the KH Campaign Book offers stats for fortresses, fortified stations, and armed stations with 300HP, 140HP, and 80HP respectively along with Damage Control Ratings of 200, 100, & 75 respectively. Beyond the trio of weapon & defense packages this is everything that has been officially specced out for space stations by the rule book. Based on the modules we also have Planoran Station (built into an asteroid, mind you...not a traditional wheel) sporting a mere 60HP but more weaponry than the armed station, yet it shares the same DCR score of 75 with the armed station. Clarion Station is not specced out in the module despite the possibility that the Sathar fleet in the final scenario might be able to make their way to both stations (we already have specs for a fortress so Redoubt is covered). SF/KH:1 specs Darkworld Station sporting the same 60HP as Planoran but with less weaponry than the armed station. Page 24 of the module details Darkworld as being a size 3 station rotating with enough velocity to create 0.5g and the cylinder (production facility for Ixiol) is a weightless environment, suggesting it does not rotate. It also states the docking bay has accomodations for eight ships (up to HS:14 in size according to the rule book for a size 3 station). DCR is specified at 80, five points higher than a Armed Station. The only other noteworthy mention is that 3000 occupants are on Darkworld Station. SF/KH:4 also does not spec L4 station, but we can presume it to be at least a size:4 station since there is a sathar heavy cruiser & assault carrier docked within (and techinically, being a construction center it would have to be size 6). The rest of the descriptions detail the interior as the adventure dictates the players have to infiltrate the station from within. That is the entire scope of canon rules for space stations. What follows is a proposal to expand on that so a GM actually has something useful for creating and utilizing Space Stations in their game above and beyond the minimalist hand-waved rules that have been established. |
October 1, 2017 - 10:20am | I would propose something that parallels the KH ship construction rules, just to keep it simple. |
October 1, 2017 - 10:21am |
October 1, 2017 - 10:21am |
 October 1, 2017 - 12:20pm | I did a sketchup drawing of the station on the fold out KH map. Judging from the assault scout flying next to it and choosing the length of that assault scout to be 30m I calculated the diameter of the station to be 652 m. This makes this station a hull size III - IV in your proposed rules above. If the spots between the towers in the docking hub are docking bays, then there are 12 in this station which would push it to a hull size IV. Then if you want the outermost deck to have 1 G of gravity, the station rotates once every 36.1 seconds. This is a tangential velocity of 56.4 m/s. This is 3.4 kph or 2.1 mph. So, if you are woking on the docks in the hub, you will see a ship enter the hub and appear to be rotaing once every 36 seconds. The ship will stop centered in the hub and then appear to slow its rotation as it starts spinning to match the station spin of one rotation every 36 seconds. When it matches the station rotation it will appear still and the docking towers will deploy their grapple lines. Then as the ship is pulled into its docking bay the ship will thrust against the pull with its attitude thrusters. This is likely done by command from the docking bay with the ship turning control over to the station. Another option is to deploy grapples from the opposite side of the station as well so that the grapples are pulling against each other as the ship is brought into its docking bay. I calculated that the station in the KH fold out map has a gravity in the hub on the floor by the docking towers of just 2.7 m/s^2 or 0.28 G. So, grapples can safely be used to pull ships around in the bay. Here are the rotational rates calculated for the standard hull sizes and diameters proposed above to achieve 1 G on the outermost deck of the ring. I (200 m) 20.1 s II (400 m) 28.4 s III (600 m) 34.8 s IV (800 m) 40.1 s V (1000 m) 141.9 s VI (1200 m) 155.4 s -iggy |
October 1, 2017 - 4:37pm | I calculated the diameter of the station to be 652 m. This makes this station a hull size III - IV in your proposed rules above. Technically that's canon, it's one of the very few bits that were published. I merely expanded on that premise. So, if you are woking on the docks in the hub, you will see a ship enter the hub and appear to be rotaing once every 36 seconds. The ship will stop centered in the hub and then appear to slow its rotation as it starts spinning to match the station spin of one rotation every 36 seconds. When it matches the station rotation it will appear still and the docking towers will deploy their grapple lines. Then as the ship is pulled into its docking bay the ship will thrust against the pull with its attitude thrusters. This is likely done by command from the docking bay with the ship turning control over to the station. IIRC canon states the ship's thrusters control the entry/exit, but I do like this proposal. I (200 m) 20.1 s
II (400 m) 28.4 s III (600 m) 34.8 s IV (800 m) 40.1 s V (1000 m) 141.9 s VI (1200 m) 155.4 s Awesome, I added that to the opening table. Thanks!
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October 1, 2017 - 7:15pm | So, if you are woking on the docks in the hub, you will see a ship enter the hub and appear to be rotaing once every 36 seconds. The ship will stop centered in the hub and then appear to slow its rotation as it starts spinning to match the station spin of one rotation every 36 seconds. When it matches the station rotation it will appear still and the docking towers will deploy their grapple lines. Then as the ship is pulled into its docking bay the ship will thrust against the pull with its attitude thrusters. This is likely done by command from the docking bay with the ship turning control over to the station. IIRC canon states the ship's thrusters control the entry/exit, but I do like this proposal. If I were the being responsible for the safety of the station I would want to control the docking and departure manuvers in detail so some moron pilot doesn't run his ship into my station. I keep thinking of harbor pilots in places like San Francisco Bay and Bosston Harbor. They come aboard and take control of ships to pilot them through the waters that they know so well. In SF all this can be done by wire through the grapple cables. The ship thrusters can still be the primary means of settling the ship into the dock. The actual grapples are a safety precaution and backup. They can hold the ship if thrusters malfunction or some moron pilot insists on overriding the station control of his ships thrusters because he wants to show off how good of a pilot he is. The station docking control could also be done wirelessly too. I just like the security of a robot or space suited dock worker physically plugging into a thruster control port. -iggy |
 October 2, 2017 - 5:22am | Since Boston Harbor has been mentioned, I'll share this for reference purposes: RE: ships being brought into Chelsea Creek to off load petrolium products for the tank farm in East Boston and Natural gas tankers being brought in and under the Tobin Bridge to a storage facility in (I believe that is Chelsea) I've observed these operations numerous times and will describe the immediate Post 9/11 version but some things have relax in this: 6 tugs: two to a side and one fore and aft Small boats 1 each from Boston Police, State Police, Coast Guard, and Harbor Master 1 state police helicopter Boston Police cars with two officers at various points observing from shore (I only observed boston police units on this duty but would not be surpirsed if there was a State Police unit on the Chelsea side under the Tobin bridge as the park that is State Police jurisdiction not Chelsea cops. Now I'm reading a book and sipping coffee when this little parade happens by bringing in a Natural Gas tanker and I think wow this is interesting so I take out a flip phone and snap a whole series of pictures of the whole operation. My coffee at this point is done so I walk off home. Fast forward one month and it happens again but I've already seen this so I keep sipping coffee and reading paying no mind but the damn helicopter is hovering close and behind me making a lot of noise (about 80-100 feet in the air as im sitting near a 5 story building) and a police car has pulled up 60 yards away and one officer is advancing on me while the other stands behind the car at the driver side door observing. Apparently, I was observed photographing the previous months event and there was some concern. I played stupid geeky nerd reading his David Weber novel. The cop wrote down the books name and the web site where he could down load a copy for free- apparently he was a sci fi fan too and i managed to sell him on how good Weber is. I do believe that they have relaxed police presence at these little events and one time I observed the show and was wondering where the Coast Guard was. Helicopter has been presence every time and the harbor master and at least one police boat. I dont think the Chelsea cops ever get involved but then they have a "What do you want me to do?" attitude which is you read between the lines its really F--- off and stop bothering me. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 2, 2017 - 6:37am | maybe I'm missing something- but it seems that there are only 3 grades of station- Fortress, fortified and civilian in the linked document below. The implication of the Campaign game in KHs is 3 grades of military station and then civilian as in Clarion station which does not appear in the Campaign game. Also you are leaving out another source of material on stations, I'll not call it canon for the sake of arguement but it is a source of info non the less- Zebs EDIT: in the document under Skills the word for gunnery station should be position to differentiate it from Station as in space station just for clarity. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 2, 2017 - 6:52am | The station-guided entry is looking good, I'll add that in after work. maybe I'm missing something- but it seems that there are only 3 grades of station- Fortress, fortified and civilian in the linked document below. I simply merged "civilian station" and "armed station" into the same category. You can upgun a station so far with no penalties --- much like upgunning civilian ships in KH --- yet in the end they're both still civilian ships/stations. Also you are leaving out another source of material on stations, I'll not call it canon for the sake of arguement but it is a source of info non the less- Zebs What does Zeb's reveal? I'll admit I don't source it very often but I would certainly entertain any useful info it may divulge. EDIT: in the document under Skills the word for gunnery station should be position to differentiate it from Station as in space station just for clarity.
Good point. I'll make the edit later, I'm off to work soon. |
October 2, 2017 - 7:26am | I went a head and edited the doc since its just word choice issue and not substantive. Artificial Satellites Sat. List the various types of large manned stations that may orbit the planet. The First three are explained in the Star Frontiers Knight Hawks game: * SF = UPF Space Fortress * FSS = Fortified Space Station * ASS = Armed Space Station There are several new types of satellites. * TS -- Trading Stations: These "malls in space" are usually found in very secure space sectors. They are restricted by UPF law to sell only those items not produced on the planet they orbit. Trading stations also have facilities for restocking spaceships. * RRS -- Rest and Relaxation Stations:These space stations specialize in entertainment facilities such as holo-shows, live theater, casinos, lounges, and sporting event. They also cover recreational facilities such as zoos, adventure theme parks, and on some of the planets with more hostile environments, "outdoor" parks that offer hiking, biking, climbing, boating, etc. Usually there is a wide range of packages for the onboard hotel facilities so it is possible for people to vacation there over extended periods of time. * DS -- Docking stations: These space stations provide facilities for the repair, refurbishment, and complete overhaul of spaceships. Some are also shipyards where new spaceships are built. Every type of space station can handle light repairs on space ships, but only a docking station can handle seriously damaged ships. On the Frontier each non-military space station has a Star Law Officer on board with a contingent of deputies. While the station's General Manager is responsible for all the normal functions on board the space station, Star Law is the Law. Non-militiary space stations are considered part of the planet they orbit and under Spacefleet's jurisdicition, though the ships that shuttle between the space stations and planet fall within Spacefleet's jurisdition. Some of the zebs material should be modified IMO Dont understand why the trading stations should be barred from selling anything manufactured on the planet below- doesn't make a lot of sense and talk about overhead- everything for sale there must be shipped over interstellar distances. Star Law is not the law on the stations- by canon Star Law is only concerned with interstellar criminals and sathar agents. there should be local station security for all crime that does not fit those categories. Canon supports with with WoWL modules which in that case is the local militia. all would depend on station admin- if its a corporation as in the case of a RRS station then its simply corporate security, technically the station is territory for the planet it orbits so the government of the planet below could have a planetary police force with authority on the station but maybe not or it could have a militia but not all planets do. If there is a militia then space fleet really has no reason to bother with ships shuttling between statiion and planet. However, its probably best to leave in place the detail that they have jurisdiction. Finally what about SSC's ? are these wheeled spoked stations? or are they just a spread out gantry of construction berths, service tunnels, zero G foundries and work shops? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 2, 2017 - 9:48am | I was just thinking about this but if there are stations specifically called docking station they really should be able to dock more ships that the standard amount. Otherwise, every station is pretty much a docking station by default. Means by which this happens can be Shadow' elongated hub or perhaps a station design different than the standard wheel. Or something as simple as the spokes are fat to accommodate a lift that brings ships down into an airtight cavernous bay where HS 1-3 maybe 4 ships are worked on in full atmosphere and some gravity. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 3, 2017 - 3:57am | Heh heh...Zeb's said "ASS". Technically all of those "variants" in Zeb's fall neatly under the proposed civilian station clause, they simply serve a unique purpose. One could add "Scientific/Research Station" and it still falls into that category. As far as the SCC goes, those are a series of size:VI station according to canon (IIRC the text states that they are linked, perhaps 4, 6, or 8 ring/hub combos in one big station?). Alas, I would probably spec a "docking station" as the aforementioned extended hub type. Personally I never saw the need for a RSS as explained in Zeb's. Tourists would travel to these things in a space liner which already has a lot of those features...in other words they take a pleasure cruise to a pleasure station and then return back home via another pleasure cruise. It would just make more sense to have a liner set up like a cruise line that stops in several ports along the way instead of the usual point A to point B routes. Granted the rich & frivolous probably would want to visit a RSS with a view of the tourist mecca Maze (Minotaur), but I really don't see the need for these on the whole. One RSS is a novelty item, more than one is overly redundant. As for trading stations, again this is redundant since it is something you can find on the commercial decks of any non-militant station. Even the SF/KH:1 module mentions this about Clarion Station, stating that all the mega-corps have offices onboard, so it goes without saying that a lot of trade is practiced in that station. In the end we could always spec out a few sample stations at the end of the description...such as a small Scientific Research Station orbitting Laco, a standard commercial station (like Clarion Station, which I would say is a double ring/hub station), a Docking Station (extended hub/single ring), an upgunned station (Armed Station), Fortified Station, and a Fortress just to name a few. |
 October 4, 2017 - 9:04am | I like this project. It should help fill out this aspect of the Frontier. Iggy's comments (which I'll repeat below) got me to thinking about something... Iggy: "I did a sketchup drawing of the station on the fold out KH map. Judging from the assault scout flying next to it and choosing the length of that assault scout to be 30m I calculated the diameter of the station to be 652 m. This makes this station a hull size III - IV in your proposed rules above. If the spots between the towers in the docking hub are docking bays, then there are 12 in this station which would push it to a hull size IV. Then if you want the outermost deck to have 1 G of gravity, the station rotates once every 36.1 seconds. This is a tangential velocity of 56.4 m/s. This is 3.4 kph or 2.1 mph. Well, what if the station's central hub and spokes didn't rotate? What if it's only the outer ring that spins around? I know we -- and the TSR designers -- think of 2001 A Space Odyssey with its elaborate scene of the space shuttle docking with the station. But Babylon 5 gave us the image of how the central core of the station doesn't rotate -- making docking easier -- while the outer sections do rotate to provide gravity. The spokes from the central hub would have the elevator shafts along with the motors to rotate the ouger ring(s). Then, when the elevator lift is transitioning from the spoke to the ring, it would have to get on some sort of acceleration track to get up to speed with the ring. You could think of the transport tubes of Space 1999 as an idea.  Just a thought. Joe Cabadas |
October 7, 2017 - 8:32pm | To expand on a parallel with Iggy's remarks concerning station controlled landings & take-offs, I recently read something regarding the Y-Wings from Star Wars. It turns out there is a recessed control panel under the cockpit to allow a ground crew to maneuver the ship via its repulsorlift and guide it around the service area without a pilot in the cockpit. In other words, the ground crewman reaches up and guides the ship via a joystick and "walks the dog" where it needs to be. BTW --- I updated the document with the docking towers. I also added five sample station spec-sheets that include a Fortress, an incomplete Fortified Station, a class:II SCC, a small scientific/research station, and a salvage/repair yard that could be classified as a Docking Station in Zeb's terms. |
October 8, 2017 - 1:05am | There is a lot of good material here. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 8, 2017 - 7:50pm | I need to do a write-up of Fortress Redoubt and find a pic of Boneyard Station, after that unless anyone else has any input this project is about finished and ready for print.  Speaking of which... In the end we could always spec out a few sample stations at the end of the description...such as a small Scientific Research Station orbitting Laco, a standard commercial station (like Clarion Station, which I would say is a double ring/hub station), a Docking Station (extended hub/single ring), an upgunned station (Armed Station), Fortified Station, and a Fortress just to name a few. So far I have specced a Fortress, a Fortified Station, a Docking Station (the Salvage Yard), and the Scientific/Research Station listed above, along with an SCC. Does anyone feel that we need a Commercial Station and an Armed Station specced out? I could always do a redux of Darkworld for the Armed Station and if needed I could wing a Commercial Station (with Clarion Station being the proposed station). |
October 8, 2017 - 9:25pm | More the merrier. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 9, 2017 - 8:19am | Yes, do the others. Also, I want to do Sketchup drawings of each of the stations. Here is a screen shot of the one I did for the station in the Knight Hawks fold out map. With the stats you did and a few pencil sketches or example art for each station I can do models of each station as illustrations. -iggy |
October 9, 2017 - 8:28pm | Okay the other pair is published, I think we can go to print with this now. Unless anyone feels this one should be included....  |
October 10, 2017 - 4:14am | Question were did all the art work that stands out as not KHs in origin come from? need to know if we can use it. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 10, 2017 - 6:53am | I pulled the artwork off of Google image search. Iggy has already volunteered to whip up some sketchup renderings if copyright is an issue. |
October 10, 2017 - 12:47pm | I pulled the artwork off of Google image search. Iggy has already volunteered to whip up some sketchup renderings if copyright is an issue. Actually some of the station images that AZ GAmer has provided us look like Daedalus station IIRC Like what you did with Red Syn Station, I wonder is anyone has done a scan and patch together of Clarion station from the KHs map? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 10, 2017 - 8:20pm | I have a MS Paint rendition of Boneyard Station that I need to find, I should have it by the weekend. |
October 10, 2017 - 9:01pm | I'd love to see your ms paint rendition of Boneyard Station. -iggy |
October 11, 2017 - 6:45pm | Well, nuts...I thought the Boneyard Station image was larger.  |
October 20, 2017 - 7:42pm | Just a thought about the grappling tower addition: should this also apply to launches, shuttles, and other small vehicles? I'm still leaning to fighter craft and shuttles being grappled but I don't see the need for it with launches & workpods. |
October 21, 2017 - 11:09pm | Docking any size ship without grapples is doable, the question of grapples is risk mitigation. The cost of a wreck is not worth risking so grapples are used to reduce the risk. So as you noticed, smaller craft are less of a risk so the bean counters may find that the cost vs risk mitigation is such that launches and workpods are not worth it. I can see the military requiring fighters to land without grapples as part of battle readiness. A battle is too busy for the slow grappling process so fighters need to be experienced in quick takeoff and landing without assist. This may also extend to assault scouts. Yet I have always liked how fighters could be quick launched by throwing them out the sides of spinning stations. So I imagine there could be a quick recovery where the fighter flys into the center of the hub and catches a rail. The rail then pulls the fighter down into the hub like a roller coaster car for quick refueling, life support recharge, and re-arming. The fighter can then relaunch from the other end of the rail out of the side of the station like a rock from a spinning sling. Of course, there could be switches in the rail path too. These switches would put the fighter on other longer side tracks for damage repair and pilot swaps. There could even be an emergency room direct track for wounded pilots. Most of these tracks would happen in vacuum. Only the ER track may have an airlock or cockpit coupling airlock for pilot extraction. You may not want to put a damaged ship into an atmosphere and cause a sudden fire or explosion. -iggy |
October 22, 2017 - 7:43am | The big reason I am shy to apply grapples to launches & workpods is the fact that they accelerate with fuel bursts (as explained in the spacesuit rocketpack rules), not like the ADF used to factor space ship acceleration. In other words it takes them a long time to reach ADF of 1 from a standstill (if they even reach it, it's been a while since I calculated that). Also, it would probably be tricky to grapple small launches & workpods since they are considerably smaller than HS:1 (whereas a large launch probably barely qualifies as HS:1). |
October 22, 2017 - 12:29pm | IDK, I think grapples make sense for docking. However, in the rules grapples are MPO weapons. making them a weapon system What if we just invent an Automated Dock System? I'm sure the Frontier would have something like that. Combination of computer controlled, docking buffers, inertia fields and magneticle grapples. The ADS is for stations and automatically docks a ship without a problem 99% of the time. -20% if alien craft not in its data base. Anything from large launch down can have an automated docking program that controls the compressed air maneuver jets. Heck even larger ships might have automated docking programs tied into the manuever jets. Automated Docking program. automatically but slowly docks a ship safely 99% of time -20% for docking hatch/buffer of unknown alien design. or the ships pilot can roll against his skill. pilot sets parameters and monitors programs and can take over with RS check then make a skill roll if things are going in the toilet. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
October 22, 2017 - 7:05pm | I've been using the term grapples but they would be docking bay specific, not the ones detailed in the rules to grab a ship in combat or deep space. These docking grapples are directly connected to an external docking port on the ship that is docking. Not very effective in a forced situation as said port is not open in deep space and nor would some ship willingly expose the port to agressors. I'm not thinking that docking grapples have actual claws or other agressive grappling aparatus. So, I would suggest we come up with some other name other than grapples to discribe them. How about docking tethers? -iggy |
