 January 3, 2017 - 8:52am | The discussion about Void jump times got me looking deeper into the nature of robots. What follows is some musing on this subject. Occasionally someone talks about giving new special programs to robots. One of the modules, I believe, gives all maintenance robots a maintenance program, presumably drawn from the list of computer programs. But I don't trust module-writers to always fully understand the rules. Let's look at this more closely. A maintenance robot has a standard body and can be level 1 through 4. The Standard Robot Cost Table lists a level 1 maintenance robot as 2,200 credits. Let's custom-build one and see what we get. Standard body, 2,000 credits. Level 1, 200 credits. Total: 2,200 credits. NO SPECIAL PROGRAMS. The standard cost table price is matched without adding anything else. A combat robot has a standard body, an attack/defense program, and can be level 2 through 4. The table says a level 2 combat robot is 3,500 cr. Custom build: standard body, 2,000 cr.; level 2, 500 cr.; attack/defense program, 1,000 cr. Total: 3,500 cr. It matches the table WITH the program. So we can trust the table and the description of each robot type. And NONE of these robots can do skilled labor, except for fighting. And see! Every robot that can fight does so at a fixed chance: 30% + 10 × (robot's level). There are no program levels for robot special programs. You can't teach a robot to fight better by installing a better program. Now the suggestion comes up, why not create robot programs that let robots perform skilled jobs? It seems a reasonable thing to do but... if robots can do this, you have to make these programs available to buy just like any other. But I don't think robots were envisioned this way by the game designers. I think they intentionally kept robots at an unskilled level. The various combat programs let them break their "Asimov circuits," but no consideration whatsoever was given to robots as anything other than unskilled workers. They can look up information through a computer link program (or by being at a computer terminal if they're anthropomorphic), and they could even apply some of that information themselves, but they can't be said to possess the skill that information embodies. For instance, a robot field-nurse could easily hand a medic his tools as he needs them, and could carry things and so on. A normal service robot. But a robot with a computer link to a computer with an information storage program containing a medical database could look up various medical information as needed. Such a robot might even be able to perform simple first aid, though probably not the actual First Aid medical subskill, which only trained medics can perform. This robot might provide diagnoses, but not medically licensed ones. A robot could NOT replace a ship's astrogator, because astrogation requires a skill, and robots do not have these. If you provide for robots gaining skill programs, then you have to allow for robots getting astrogation skill programs. Unless we go back to that "space travel is special and only the ineffable qualities that separate sentient beings from robots lets you navigate" schlock. And I'm kind of annoyed that nowhere in the rules is there any indication of why anyone would want a cybernetic robot. I wonder if they're meant to be androids: they have "organic" parts, but these aren't parts harvested from formerly living beings. They're meant to interact with people in a more comfortable and intimate way than other robots, but are still clearly robots nonetheless, and can't pass for living beings. This is the only way I can make sense of cybots and their availability for sale in a non-creepy way. |
 January 3, 2017 - 3:43pm | Re: cybots I always assumed the were essentially organ donar brains much like Robo cop. And if so there is the possibility for interesting story lines like Robo cop. Making a cybot an anthropomorphic both with skin and blood like the Terminator is an interesting way to go but the base word cybernetic upon which the word cybot was constructed doesn't suggest the Terminator to me but something more like Robocop. I would disagree about robots being unskilled labor. 1. Several of the standard robots fill labor positions that would not be considered unskilled if filled by a sapient being. 2. Several robot programs double as installable skills. 3. High level robots IE level 5&6 and in particular lvl 6 with its ability to write its own programing are hard to imagine as unskilled labor 4. At the risk of starting a new Zebs bru-ha-ha the Silver Death Cult doesn't make any sense as a cadre if robots are unskilled labor. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 3, 2017 - 3:47pm | Robotic doctors and astrogators probably should be limited to levels 5&6 if not just level 6 and require an expensive robotics program that confers skill. If other robotics programs confer recognized skills then no reason we can't allow for new programs. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 3, 2017 - 6:15pm | Re: cybots I always assumed the were essentially organ donar brains much like Robo cop. And if so there is the possibility for interesting story lines like Robo cop.[/QUOTE] But you can buy them at the local robot shop! You don't find that a little out of character for this game? And why are they usually anthropomorphic if not to appear as androids? I would disagree about robots being unskilled labor. 1. Several of the standard robots fill labor positions that would not be considered unskilled if filled by a sapient being. Aside from combat, what are these? If you mean service robots like tailors and gardeners, I think these jobs mean they're basically intelligent sewing machines and hoers. The higher the level, the more complex these jobs can be, but that doesn't make them experts; they're still just following their programming. A level 3 service robot programmed as a gardener might water the tomatoes on a schedule and shoo away pests; a level 6 version could plan and implement an entire annual cycle of many fields. (But a robot brain would be needed to manage other robots on a farm.) So what skilled labor positions do the rules show robots as filling? 2. Several robot programs double as installable skills. Eh? Which ones? 3. High level robots IE level 5&6 and in particular lvl 6 with its ability to write its own programing are hard to imagine as unskilled labor Self-programming just means they're able to redefine their own programming to better take care of their jobs. Sentient beings are more intelligent than robots, and many of THEM can only do unskilled labor. If you don't like the skilled/unskilled dichotomy, how would you describe the reason that robots can be tailors and gardeners, and can manage other robots, but can't learn to practice medicine or program computers? 4. At the risk of starting a new Zebs bru-ha-ha the Silver Death Cult doesn't make any sense as a cadre if robots are unskilled labor. The Unproduct is not considered here. |
January 3, 2017 - 6:17pm | Robotic doctors and astrogators probably should be limited to levels 5&6 if not just level 6 and require an expensive robotics program that confers skill.
If other robotics programs confer recognized skills then no reason we can't allow for new programs. Given the lack of "Medic" or "Astrogation" programs for robots in the equipment listings, you're going to have to convince me that "skill programs" exist and that I've just never noticed them before. |
 January 3, 2017 - 9:21pm | Just for the record, more on robots should be level-0, just below normal lv-1 bots. Considering how basic a lv-1 bot really is, it doesn't say much for a moron robot. |
 January 4, 2017 - 5:02am | Robotic doctors and astrogators probably should be limited to levels 5&6 if not just level 6 and require an expensive robotics program that confers skill.
If other robotics programs confer recognized skills then no reason we can't allow for new programs. Given the lack of "Medic" or "Astrogation" programs for robots in the equipment listings, you're going to have to convince me that "skill programs" exist and that I've just never noticed them before. Well the equipment in the standard medkit includes at least one if not two at least semi-skilled mini robots: the autosurgeon and the diagnostic tool. |
January 4, 2017 - 5:33am | Well the equipment in the standard medkit includes at least one if not two at least semi-skilled mini robots: the autosurgeon and the diagnostic tool.
The autosurgeon "allows a medic to operate on himself." That's not a robot; that's an electrosurgeon with the controls facing downward. If the diagnostic tool you refer to is the medscanner, that's not a robot either. |
January 4, 2017 - 6:59am | Well the equipment in the standard medkit includes at least one if not two at least semi-skilled mini robots: the autosurgeon and the diagnostic tool.
The autosurgeon "allows a medic to operate on himself." That's not a robot; that's an electrosurgeon with the controls facing downward. If the diagnostic tool you refer to is the medscanner, that's not a robot either. Depends on how sophisticated they are. Both could easily qualify as "smart systems", performing some functions at least semi-autonomously. |
January 4, 2017 - 8:28am | Robot programs that double as skills: Restrain, Self defense, attack/defense, search and destroy- these are all skilled tasks They provide the robot information on the "how to" while its pursuing its mission. They game focuses on these combat skill/operations primarily, I suspect, because the designers were thinking in terms of robots as opposition to the PCs. Sure they did not list other "skill" programs as it was not germaine to getting AD out as a product focused on thrilling sci-fi adventures largely involving shooting up stuff after all we dont role play gardening. Lets take the example of a service robot gardiner. First of all there are no level 3 service bots, they start at level 4 which is fairly high functioning for a robot. He will have a mission and functions but he will need a horticulture program or a botany program that will instruct him on the minutia of planting marigolds next to tomatoes because the marigolds drive off the pest that like the tomatoes. As a referee I'd simply make up on the spot a horticulture program and price it at 500 cr which seems to be the cost of lower level robot programs. The designers set it up with missions and functions which are fairly simple and straight forward and the programs are a hand wave that save us from writing detailed instructions on how to restrain or use a weapon. They are a repository of information. You may counter with its just information but I would say that what is it that makes a human skilled- information, training, practice but at their base all skills are information. The arguement that because the game designers didn't give us a robot gardining program or a medical program does not mean they didn't intend for those to exist. The majority of the robot programs in the AD equipment list are skill programs and as such I see no reason for there not to be other skill programs. In fact I think its absolutely necessary. A butler robot will need a program that tells him how to brush and press a suit, shine shoes, and block a felt hat among other things; this is just logical but we didnt need that detailed in the rules and most players and referees wont care. That is the purpose of these programs to save us as players from writing long detailed instructions- Mission and functions are simple the other details of how hot tea should be or the best judo throws are hand waved in a program. Skilled positions held by standard robots: Maintenance, Heavy duty robot, combat robot, security robot, service robot, warbot, and robotic brain. admittedly until a robot is over level 3 it may not appear as a skilled laborer being very single minded in its mission. Maintenance robots would need to be replaced by a technician. heavy duty robots are your large mining equipment types and these would need to be replaced by a very highly paid skilled operator - in real world Windam Public Works here in Maine has lots of drivers with only a CDL b license which lets them drive the dump trucks which also double as plow trucks but the the lead man has on the crew has a CDL A and hydraulics certification which means he's in charge and drives the dump truck with the trailer towing the backhoe and operates all other heavy equipment. Sure he is in essence a ditch digger but he is skilled labor and highly paid. Combat is something you desire skilled labor for. there are many historic examples of unskilled mob tactics used to overwhelm an enemy but no modern military relies on or plans to use this tactic. The war and search and destroy robots both would be replaced by very highly skilled operators from our military. Service robots start at level 4 and this is a catch all entry for referees to use but many service positions are skilled positions. It would be disasterous to take a random selection of unskilled ie untrained people off the street and make them butlers. They would have a massive learning curve with the number one lesson being keep your mouth shut. Anything a robot brain is doing is most likely running something, city, ship, industrial sector etc. hard to classify this as unskilled labor. Your arguement boils down to medical and astrogation programs were not included in the setting so therefor they are not there. Its not a great arguement when were dealing with a product that was intended as a springboard and that the designers fully expected that the fans and users of the product would go beyond what they created. Im not seeing your side of this at all. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 4, 2017 - 8:40am | RE: certain medical equipment and Shadow's 0 level robots. I agree there is a place for 0 level robots these would be remote control drones and ect. and the auto surgeon in the med kit. A 0 level robot is a machine that cannot self motivate, it does not have a mission and requires a sapient to direct it but it can perform various tasks for a sapeint. I'm all for giving a beginning roboticist PC a remote drone as beginning equipment. 1. it gives him something to play with and use his skills on 2. its not as over powering as an actual robot unless you are giving the party a ship then why not 3 combat robots as well. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 4, 2017 - 9:40am | Robot programs that double as skills: Restrain, Self defense, attack/defense, search and destroy- these are all skilled tasks And as I said... "EXCEPT FOR FIGHTING." And even then, the fighting programs are more about giving robots permission to fight rather than telling them HOW to fight. Yes, the programs tell them how to fight, but the whole point of including them in the game is to make non-violence the default state of robots, and to make characters pay to upgrade them. They game focuses on these combat skill/operations primarily, I suspect, because the designers were thinking in terms of robots as opposition to the PCs. MOST OF THE DESCRIPTION OF ROBOTS IS ABOUT HOW PLAYER CHARACTERS CAN BUY AND CUSTOMIZE THEM. Sure they did not list other "skill" programs as it was not germaine to getting AD out as a product focused on thrilling sci-fi adventures largely involving shooting up stuff after all we dont role play gardening. Or they could have decided that mundane tasks like tailoring and gardening could be described in a robot's functions. First of all there are no level 3 service bots Yes there are. They're 4,000 credits for a standard model. He will have a mission and functions but he will need a horticulture program or a botany program that will instruct him on the minutia of planting marigolds next to tomatoes because the marigolds drive off the pest that like the tomatoes. Or it may have that information in its functions. High-level robots have many functions. They are a repository of information. You may counter with its just information but I would say that what is it that makes a human skilled- information, training, practice but at their base all skills are information. When you want robots with databases, you give the robot a Computer Link program and connect it to a computer with an Information Storage program. The arguement that because the game designers didn't give us a robot gardining program or a medical program does not mean they didn't intend for those to exist. The designers didn't give us a robot Maintenance program. But when you buy a standard maintenance robot (2,200 credits for level 1), you buy exactly two things: the body type (standard, 2,000 cr.) and the level (1, 200 cr.). YOU DO NOT BUY A PROGRAM. That maintenance robot you just bought is ready to receive its orders and to start doing maintenance. When you buy a standard-model robot brain (17,000 Cr) you're buying a heavy duty body (5,000 Cr), level 6 complexity (8,000 Cr), and a Computer Link program (4,000 Cr). YOU DO NOT BUY ANY PROGRAMS TO MANAGE OTHER ROBOTS. Those three components add up to the full cost of a robot brain. Add them up. If there were some unstated skill program being used to do this it would be part of the cost, and the basic parts wouldn't add up to the standard cost. Robot brains can manage other robots using its mission and functions and no special programs. A butler robot will need a program that tells him how to brush and press a suit, shine shoes, and block a felt hat among other things A butler robot's mission tells it what things to accomplish. A butler robot's functions tell him how to accomplish these things. That is the purpose of these programs to save us as players from writing long detailed instructions No it's not. The complexity of a robot is in its level, not its programs. "Low-level robots can not make decisions, so their functions must be very specific statements. Higher-level robots can make decisions for themselves, so their functions can be more general statements." So whereas a low-level robot might have to be told what a "oil spill" is, what a "mop" is, how to move the mop through the oil spill, and how to identify when the oil spill is gone, a high-level robot could just be told, "clean the floor." The robot's LEVEL contains the logic of how to process this, not its special programs. It would be disasterous to take a random selection of unskilled ie untrained people off the street and make them butlers. They would have a massive learning curve with the number one lesson being keep your mouth shut. Robots don't have learning curves. All that their jobs entail are put into their missions and functions. Your arguement boils down to medical and astrogation programs were not included in the setting so therefor they are not there. That is not my argument. You've built a straw-robot. Im not seeing your side of this at all. No, you're not. |
 January 4, 2017 - 10:56pm | OK, let's turn to the Mutiny on the Eleanor Moraes module. I think we can all agree this is a "canon" TSR product. Let's look at the level 4 Remote Expedition Survey Robot. It's programs include: Attack/Defense (defined in Alpha Dawn), Computer Link (an AD program), Topographical Survey (huh? Not in the AD book and not defined in the module), Survey Sample Collection (huh?), Photo Survey (huh?), and Site Maintenance (double, huh?). The robot's description provides this: "...They were designed to remian with the robot research station in the lander after the Moraes leaves. Thereafter, they carry out many tasks collecting soil, water and plant samples, conducting photo surveys, mapping, etc. These robots are durably built to withstand terrific punishment since repair is impossible once the expedition leaves..." Even at level 4, this robot seems pretty darn sophisticated with skills. Now, as to robots as astrogators. Remember the Dragon magazine scenario: "Day of the Juggernaut." That's one big ass, robotic ship with no indication that it has a live crew... though I suppose it could have a Sathar brain running it... It has to be able to jump into the system and out by itself, hence robots or computers can be astrogators... if you want it to be that way. But, if you want astrogation as a mystical skill that only a sapient can handle, by all means that's OK with me too. I just wanted to point out a couple other canon things about Star Frontiers robots that seemed to be overlooked in this discussion, but I don't want to come off as being a know-it-all. Each referee can decide what are the limits of his or her game. Joe Cabadas |
