 September 6, 2016 - 12:07pm | 1). The problem of all the neutron stars on the original map has been discussed before 2.)an area called the Rim? The name suggests the edge. And yet we have another edge with "The Great Expanse" The Great Expanse suggests, at least to my mind that the Frontier abuts up against the edge of one of the spiral arms of this "spiral galaxy" if so the Rim territory makes no sense where it's position is unless of course it's called the Rim for some less obvious reason. (I don't believe I'm a fan of it being the Rim for a less obvious reason). Any other Astro Geography issues I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 September 12, 2016 - 6:57am | In honor of the ifshnits I say we call them gnomes instead of dwarves. |
 September 12, 2016 - 9:17am | In honor of the ifshnits I say we call them gnomes instead of dwarves.  Joe Cabadas |
 December 3, 2016 - 2:34pm | It should also be noted that the map included in Zebulon's Guide has several inaccuracies compared to other official SFAD products: The location of the Sundown system (from SF3 Sundown on Starmist) should likely be near White Light system for 2 reasons: The prevalence of Vrusk Star Ship (VSS) Centispeed and Last Legs being used in the hooks, and the system brief claiming the Clarion Dept of Extra-Solar Affairs being involved now. Why would Clarion (White Light System) lead a survey where Sundown in shown in Zebs Guide? Given these two clues, Sundown should probably be located where Zebs shows the Gamma blue plague planet. The location of the Rihanna system (from SF4 Mission to Alcazzar) should probably be where Zebs shows Delta so that it is a non-binary system between Cassidine, White Light and Timeon as stated in the module... I placed Rihanna closer to Cassidine since Cassidine Development Corp was developing the planet. The location of Belnafaer (from SFAD5 Bugs in the System) is the only one of the module placements that Zeb got correct, (opinion time) but out of 4 possible unexplored systems, I think the least interesting one was chosen. The unexplored system 2ly right, and 2ly down on the map would have made for possible links to Dixon's Star, making Belnafaer a little more of a crossroads and making it a little more plausible the PCs would have been "just passing through" The location of Tristkar (from SFAD6 Dark Side of the Moon) is sort of technically correct in Zebs since it IS "right of K'tsa Kar" as stated in the module, but on the SFAD Map of the Frontier Sector the unexplored system right and above K'tsa Kar and right and below of K'aken Kar makes more sense than where Zebs places it down near Theseus. Zebs calls the place where I thought Tristkar should be "Solar Major" and the only other candidate on the original SFAD map was called "Solar Minor" in the Zebs map. |
December 3, 2016 - 3:46pm | It should also be noted that the map included in Zebulon's Guide has several inaccuracies compared to other official SFAD products: The location of the Sundown system (from SF3 Sundown on Starmist) should likely be near White Light system for 2 reasons: The prevalence of Vrusk Star Ship (VSS) Centispeed and Last Legs being used in the hooks, and the system brief claiming the Clarion Dept of Extra-Solar Affairs being involved now. Why would Clarion (White Light System) lead a survey where Sundown in shown in Zebs Guide? Given these two clues, Sundown should probably be located where Zebs shows the Gamma blue plague planet. The location of the Rihanna system (from SF4 Mission to Alcazzar) should probably be where Zebs shows Delta so that it is a non-binary system between Cassidine, White Light and Timeon as stated in the module... I placed Rihanna closer to Cassidine since Cassidine Development Corp was developing the planet. The location of Belnafaer (from SFAD5 Bugs in the System) is the only one of the module placements that Zeb got correct, (opinion time) but out of 4 possible unexplored systems, I think the least interesting one was chosen. The unexplored system 2ly right, and 2ly down on the map would have made for possible links to Dixon's Star, making Belnafaer a little more of a crossroads and making it a little more plausible the PCs would have been "just passing through" The location of Tristkar (from SFAD6 Dark Side of the Moon) is sort of technically correct in Zebs since it IS "right of K'tsa Kar" as stated in the module, but on the SFAD Map of the Frontier Sector the unexplored system right and above K'tsa Kar and right and below of K'aken Kar makes more sense than where Zebs places it down near Theseus. Zebs calls the place where I thought Tristkar should be "Solar Major" and the only other candidate on the original SFAD map was called "Solar Minor" in the Zebs map. I wouldn't disagree. And, yes, Belnafaer ought to be a link to some other star system(s) because, as you noted, the module said the characters were passing through the system. It is odd for a star system with no habitable planets to have two major star routes going to it. Why would anyone be passing through? Maybe there's some sort of sightseeing cruise ship, but other than that, it's an out of the way place. With Tristkar, for my purposes, I've decided there is a little used route from White Light to that system because that is where the human colonists were supposed to come from. The route is little used because the tendrils of the White Light Nebula partially obscure the star from view, so jump calculations are about double what they should be (or at least that's the rational I'm using and I'm sticking to it). I agree with your assessments on Sundown and Rihanna, but we got what we got with the Zebs map. (Yeah, I know, that's not a very good argument there.) Joe Cabadas |
December 16, 2016 - 8:08am | I discount the arguement that because VSS Velocipede is a vursk ship that Sundown should be near Clarion simply because starships can go anywhere there is no logical connection that mandates vrusk ships can only be near Clarion. the Clarion Department of Extra Solar affairs is trickier you could assume that since most of the Frontier is explored that its just involved in greater expanding circles of exploration. that they, like the mega corps are looking for new markets and resources - it also would justify the use of the Osprey in the Beyond the Frontier series. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 16, 2016 - 10:10pm | Jedion I am just going to have to disagree with you on this one. Yes, starships *can* go anywhere, but that does not mean they *do* - starship fuel, crew, and overhauls cost money. Sailing ships and truckers have "home ports" first and foremost, and far fewer "long haulers". VSS Centispeed and VSS Last Legs just sound like like "locals" operating near a home region to me. Now, throw in a Frontier where FTL communications exist, which are faster than any ship can possible calculate, accelerate, jump, recalculate, jump etc across the Frontier. It makes far more sense to me that Sundown be near Vrusk space, rather than on the far size of Yazirian dominated territory... because if Sundown was way over there, it would have been first jumped by someone from Araks or Screen Fron, even if some bright bulb in the Clarion Dept of Extra-Solar Affairs had a wild theory. It's far simpler (and more cost effective) to call over to Araks and charter an explorer from there, than ship someone all the way over from Clarion weeks and overhauls and more paychecks away. My basis for thinking this is the SF0 discussion of 20 years to survey the 5 year route from Truane's to Zebulon... yes, I am sure the Xagyg made that harder... but it illustrates the underlying costs and times of surveying a route. Clarion, surveying past Screen Fron doesn't feel right given the Truane's example. And if it was a misjump by a Vrusk local (not a UPF Frontier-wide hauler...) lands out past Screen Fron just doesn't ring up to me either given the Vrusk are dominant on the northeast corner of the Frontier map. Finally, given how far off Zebs puts the other SFAD module stars, which had clearer descriptions of their locations, makes anything on its map that doesn't match SFAD or SFKH1 more than slightly suspect mystery meat to me. So... yes you are right, VSS Centispeed *could* have come from anywhere, and yes Clarion dept. *could* be surveying the far side of the Frontier and ignoring the White Light nebula next door, but I can't see it given everything else. So, can we agree to disagree on this one? Despite my objections, there's nothing wrong, to me, with someone putting Sundown, Rihanna, Belnafaer, or Tristkar where-ever they like. And if they want to call Zoot-kit "Kawdl-kit" instead, even if "kawdl" doesn't sound nearly as Vrusk as zoot does to me, then its always their game welcome to do it how they like. But, when talking astrogation, I was throwing out what I thought and why, backed by the scant evidence there is within the game text itself, in the hope that it helps explain it to others, like me, trying to piece the puzzle together from the clues given. |
December 17, 2016 - 4:09am | I'll bow to a well reasoned arguement. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 20, 2016 - 8:46pm | I do doubt that TSR really planned out the Frontier Sector, especially after hearing the podcast with David "Zeb" Cook. He had described how the company knew that they could make money by creating gaming modules, but at first they were "winging it." Star Frontiers apparently had some sort of plan, but I doubt it was ever fully developed. What TSR could have produced was a kick-ass source book to detail the sector. Much like FASA eventually did with its Inner Sphere and the various major royal houses of the Battle Tech universe. But, we are left with the debate of what is more "canon" -- the original Alpha Dawn rules and the modules or Zebs. I side much more with the Alpha Dawn rules and modules -- somewhat less with Knight Hawks -- simply because Zebs is half-baked, but there are some salvagable concepts from it. I even think a lot of the fan-created concepts are much better than Zebs when it comes to world descriptions and timeline info. Merry Christmas. Joe Cabadas |
December 20, 2016 - 8:56pm | It makes far more sense to me that Sundown be near Vrusk space, rather than on the far size of Yazirian dominated territory... Well, yes, someone else probably jumped in there first but either didn't chart the route back, never thought the planet was worth checking out, or never returned to the Frontier. ...And if it was a misjump by a Vrusk local (not a UPF Frontier-wide hauler...) lands out past Screen Fron just doesn't ring up to me either given the Vrusk are dominant on the northeast corner of the Frontier map.
So... yes you are right, VSS Centispeed *could* have come from anywhere... Well, the Centispeed could have been going to Scree Fron to drop off raw materials to Universal Households and would have picked up some Ikea furniture but misjumped instead. Finally, given how far off Zebs puts the other SFAD module stars, which had clearer descriptions of their locations, makes anything on its map that doesn't match SFAD or SFKH1 more than slightly suspect mystery meat to me.
I can't argue with that. But, when talking astrogation, I was throwing out what I thought and why, backed by the scant evidence there is within the game text itself, in the hope that it helps explain it to others, like me, trying to piece the puzzle together from the clues given. Joe Cabadas |
December 20, 2016 - 8:58pm | It makes far more sense to me that Sundown be near Vrusk space, rather than on the far size of Yazirian dominated territory... Well, yes, someone else probably jumped in there first but either didn't chart the route back, never thought the planet was worth checking out, or never returned to the Frontier. ...And if it was a misjump by a Vrusk local (not a UPF Frontier-wide hauler...) lands out past Screen Fron just doesn't ring up to me either given the Vrusk are dominant on the northeast corner of the Frontier map.
So... yes you are right, VSS Centispeed *could* have come from anywhere... Well, the Centispeed could have been going to Scree Fron to drop off raw materials to Universal Households and would have picked up some Ikea furniture but misjumped instead. Finally, given how far off Zebs puts the other SFAD module stars, which had clearer descriptions of their locations, makes anything on its map that doesn't match SFAD or SFKH1 more than slightly suspect mystery meat to me... But, when talking astrogation, I was throwing out what I thought and why, backed by the scant evidence there is within the game text itself, in the hope that it helps explain it to others, like me, trying to piece the puzzle together from the clues given. I can't argue with that. Joe Cabadas |
December 21, 2016 - 11:06am | Today I've reworked my map of the Frontier a bit. This got me thinking about supernova, nebula, and such. As far as astrogation goes, I am thinking the single neutron star in the SFAD map is a very old core of the original supernova that formed all of the dust and gas nebula clouds around. Most of the Frontier life now came from the outside anyway - Clikks landed the Heliopes, the 4 core races met in the Frontier and colonized. Really on the only "natives" might be the Eorna and their ilk, but they also had starships and could have originally settled Volturnus with their other species long ago from elsewhere too. While reworking the map I came up with some alternate locations for the original core modules star systems that works on the original SFAD map, and doesn't conflict with anything named on the Zebulon's map. Here's what I've come up with: 1. I've placed Sundown in the unexplored system between Madderly's Star and K'tsa Kar. This keeps Sundown near Vrusk space where I think its more likely a VSS-named ship would be likely to misjump it. It also leaves it in a place not otherwise used by the Zebulon's map. Previously I thought the Delta or Gamma plague system would be better repurposed, but placing Sundown in an unexplored system of the original SFAD map in a way that doesn't invalidate other systems of the Zebs map improves compatibility between both. 2. I've played Rihanna in the SFAD unexplored system just south of Madderly's Star, marked no habitable planets on the Zebs map. The theory here is that I still leave the named Zeb's systems of Delta and Gamma alone, improve compatibility, and... frankly, with Alcazzar's freaky weather, it makes sense the Zebs map could call it uninhabitable. 3. I've placed Tristkar in the SFAD map unexplored system northeast of both Kizk Kar and K'aken Kar. It's still "right of K'aken Kar" as described in the module, but now does not replace or interfere with Zeb's "Solar Major" system, again improving compatibility. 4. I am going to leave Belnafaer where Zebs has it placed, and just handwave the "just passing through" as the captain of their ship using the system as a waypoint because maybe they'd previously dropped stuff to ByChem there. So this particular ship knows routes that are not publicly "certified" and thus are not on the main map. In the end, I think that my current map improved the fidelity to the original material while avoiding as many complications as possible for those wanting to use Zebs. The only real changes to zeb's materials are moving Sundown, Rihanna, and Tristkar from one place to another, which doesn't materially affect anything other than where they appear on the Zeb's map. And... pictures:  |
 December 21, 2016 - 4:03pm | So I busted out my old expanded Frontier map that I made back in the 80's before I ever got a copy of Zeb's guide (I didn't get mine until 1992) just to see where I placed everything. I had Sundown in exactly the same place you put it. I placed Belnafar one system down to the left of your location, and I placed Rianna in what Zeb called the Delta system. I never actually placed Tristkar on my old map for some reason (Or it is completely eluding me). One of these days I should see how mine maps to the Zeb's guide map and what would need to be adjusted to make it fit. I had seen Zeb's guide when I made mine (At least I'm bretty sure I did as I have a star cluster on the left in about the same location as the Formad Cluster which is a big coincidence if I hadn't) My map is much larger than the Zeb's map covering 6x the area of the original Frontier map and includes a lot of Sathar worlds including the location of 5 starship construction centers that were feeding the second sathar war. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 21, 2016 - 8:25pm | But, we are left with the debate of what is more "canon" -- the original Alpha Dawn rules and the modules or Zebs.
There is no debate. On one hand we have two completely finished products (Knight Hawks and the original boxed set/rebadged Alpha Dawn). On the other hand we have 1/3 of a 2nd edition. Complete wins every time. It's like comparing Moldvay B/X or Mentzer BECMI boxed sets to the AD&D Players Handbook while ignoring the DMG & MM. I don't even have to resort to my personal opinions of Zeb's...incomplete is incomplete and as such it can't hold a stick against fully developed. |
December 22, 2016 - 5:08pm | I've been working on making a digital version of my old map. I'm about half way done with a bare-bones version (b&w styled on the one in the Extended Rules book but black on white and not white on black). I'll post it once I'm done. I had a way too high abundance of neutron stars and a higher stellar density than in the Frontier in my extended area. I'll probably have to convert all those neutron stars to binary systems so as not to offend my astronomy sensiblities. Benefits of a higher education I guess. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 22, 2016 - 6:19pm | I've been working on making a digital version of my old map. I'm about half way done with a bare-bones version (b&w styled on the one in the Extended Rules book but black on white and not white on black). I'll post it once I'm done. I had a way too high abundance of neutron stars and a higher stellar density than in the Frontier in my extended area. I'll probably have to convert all those neutron stars to binary systems so as not to offend my astronomy sensiblities. Benefits of a higher education I guess. Black on white works. It saves on ink. Joe Cabadas |
December 22, 2016 - 7:24pm | This is my Frontier lay-out, as of pf100. Somewhere I have the "modern" version, I'll try to dig it up. |
December 22, 2016 - 8:52pm | And here it is. I've placed it in the Port Loren Public Library project Refer to: Tom's Early Extended Frontier Map Next up is to overlay the Zeb's map and tweak as exile has done for consistency. Then I'll make it all colorful. Actually, what I'll probably do is update my map software to read in external data and use that to plot it all up with the cool star symbols. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 23, 2016 - 7:44am | Terl, I'm diging those systems buried within the tendrils up in the NW quadrant.  |
