 August 7, 2016 - 12:44pm | Good question, I always treated it as a difficult 1 jump journey. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 August 7, 2016 - 12:47pm | Ah, I think the normal map doesn't show a "dog leg," but I'd have to look at it again. I've been using a B&W map that someone came up with that doesn't show that feature, but I remember seeing something on the Star Frontiers Wiki site. Please see: http://starfrontiers.wikia.com/wiki/Capellan_Pass It's as best of an explanation as I've seen. Joe Cabadas |
 August 7, 2016 - 1:10pm | Hm, interesting, thanks - I hadn't seen the wiki entry. I looked at the Zeb's map right before I posted. It shows the same bend as the graphic on the wiki page. |
August 7, 2016 - 2:38pm | Hm, interesting, thanks - I hadn't seen the wiki entry. I looked at the Zeb's map right before I posted. It shows the same bend as the graphic on the wiki page. Gotcha! Joe Cabadas |
 August 7, 2016 - 5:04pm | Does anyone have an explanation for the weird little dogleg in the map route from Zebulon to Capella (as shown in Zeb's)? It's Zeb's...they ignored everything that preceded and this is no different. Does this actually represent a two-jump journey? That's how I would rule it: a jump into empty space followed by aother jump to the desired system. Granted KH canon states that you MUST jump to a star system...so again I refer to the first part of my answer. ;) |
August 7, 2016 - 8:50pm | Does anyone have an explanation for the weird little dogleg in the map route from Zebulon to Capella (as shown in Zeb's)? It's Zeb's...they ignored everything that preceded and this is no different. Does this actually represent a two-jump journey? That's how I would rule it: a jump into empty space followed by aother jump to the desired system. Granted KH canon states that you MUST jump to a star system...so again I refer to the first part of my answer. ;) I will not defend the original Zebs book other than to say it has some interesting things in it that can be salvaged for use. I loath it too for a lot of things namely the warped timeline, changing the combat and skill resolution rules, etc. I even hate the universal weapons ranges. While it seemingly simplifies the system saying, oh, such and such weapons have this maximum range while this type has another, it completely eliminated the Point Blank range and the Extreme ranges. You can't easily convert an Alpha Dawn weapon into the Zebs system or vice versa without doing your own calculations. (Rant, rant, and ranting some more by me...) That being said, the Knight Hawks game has a lot of problems with it too. I think the idea of just being able to jump into a star system doesn't make a lot sense either. I'm pretty interested in TerlObar's Knight Hawks 2.0 project where he points out the discrepancies in those rules. But, if it's a fun game, play it. Joe Cabadas |
August 7, 2016 - 9:22pm | While I agree that you should be able to jump into empty space, there really isn't a plausible reason to do so. Things go wrong with star ships, and it is far better to have those things erupt within a star system than empty space. |
 August 8, 2016 - 4:13pm | If the two systems are sufficiently far apart (more than 21 LY) you have no choice but to jump to empty space. |
 August 8, 2016 - 4:27pm | There could be something mysterious at that turn... "Transit Nav Boxes" could be a real thing, devices that help ships stay on course, or get back on course if they exit the void for some reason. Depends if you go with Gravity is used somehow in the exiting void or not I guess. It could be it takes longer to recalculate in deep space? If you like the idea of ships in the outblack proper go for it, besides sort of works with a comment in AD about the races meeting in what sounds like not a System at all. Safety could be a big reason systems are preferred. Also I go with the idea as soon as a jump ship hits a populated system they can get updated Nav info from the Space Bouy in populated systems so can recalculate quicker navigate the system easier and so on... so in deep space, unexplored systems they would loose this edge. Just some random thoughts on it... "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
August 9, 2016 - 6:36am | If the two systems are sufficiently far apart (more than 21 LY) you have no choice but to jump to empty space.
Do the rules state such a thing? Not that they would need to considering that the Frontier doesn't have that degree of open space between systems...but I'm curious where this stems from. |
August 9, 2016 - 6:42am | If the two systems are sufficiently far apart (more than 21 LY) you have no choice but to jump to empty space.
Do the rules state such a thing? Not that they would need to considering that the Frontier doesn't have that degree of open space between systems...but I'm curious where this stems from. The KH rules seem to indicate that you always have to jump to a star... which doesn't make much sense... but don't the Alpha Dawn rules pretty much give a referee carte blanch authority to make up whatever rules fit their game? Joe Cabadas |
August 9, 2016 - 7:31am | Ref decree has always existed in RPG. But I can not ever remember reading that a ship must or can only jump between systems in KH. It seems assumed that is what PCs will want to do. Also it is assumed they will only be going to what amounts to Star Trek's M class worlds in Sol type Star Systems only... but I can think of reasons to go to other worlds and even systems with different sort of Stars. The assumption or rather lack of comment on oh btw ships could jump to deep space or not maybe a hold over from SP/SE in which the point is to bop around to different systems and find resources and build a Space Empire, in those games you would not go to empty space unless you had to as there is nothing in the games for finding stuff for your empires out there... not worth the waste of game time & resources in a game where you want to be Napoleon of Space and kick all other empire's butts... so time wasted in the deep space could loose you the game. In addition systems can be upgraded to improve Nav calculation time to next to nothing. KH borrows directly the light year charting for distances between stars from SP/SE but converted to a smaller scale. The KH ship movement is a slightly streamlined but still very obvious version of SP/SE. The beginnings of ship stats (there are some major differences between games here mainly SP/SE is money based on damage) are in SP/SE and the long long calculation times are in SP/SE which is even longer, but the reason why is pretty much the same. Misjumps are in SP/SE but note you could end up in deep space, not a system. Space hazards that mess with the ships in a similar way also in SP/SE. Also tech level of the drives determines how far a ship can jump, SF engines are not the best in tech by SP/SE standards. I think it was really just an over sight in the edit process myself, i figure you can end up no where near a system in a misjump and you might be stuck fixing things in the deep... SP/SE misjump chart has broken jump drive with a minimum of 1 month to fix, as long as 2 months to fix and those are huge mega ships with huge crews... as your crew dies your chances of a misjump go up in that game as you do not have enough people to crew the ship safely. A misjump in that game could turn into a nightmare survival scenario quickly, especially if the Ref decided to spice the game up with a little of on ship adventuring versus the landing party thing. It's obvious from the backgrounds in D&D Greyhawk & Blackmoor that TSR folks where play testing PC stats for SP/SE using OD&D stats. I think the SF game designers when they added KH just forgot to mention some info. SInce you can Navigate out of deep space in SP/SE rules and even have to jump into deep space if your drive tech is to primitive in short hops to get to system to system than I see no reason why a KH ship could not do the same and it does make the "they met near" statement make a hell of a lot more sense in AD. Most primitive Jump engines btw can jump a max of 5 light years in SP/SE which is the map scales for the boxes (each box is a 5X5X5 light year section of space). So that game system assumes minimumly a ship can jump 5 light years and more or less explore 125 light years per box, most boxes have a lot of stars, not to mention hazards. I think yes ships in SF can blink in and out of deep space after digging through TSR space game mechanics. I just assume it is a hassel to caculate jumps in the deep, versus along or near known space lanes. Anyhow that's my logic. "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
August 9, 2016 - 9:01am | Ref decree has always existed in RPG. ... Anyhow that's my logic. It works for me. As noted, for space adventures I played Star Trek more. Any, Sulu, engage the warp drive, no need to accelerate to 0.01 of light speed. Joe Cabadas |
August 9, 2016 - 10:50am | Well Star Wars did the whole zip thing too... I think it has to do with what appeals to the Ref and the setting you want to create. SF always had that sort of theatric/cinema feel to me, more of a make sure we are not going to pop out inside a star danger element & you just have to be going a certain speed first and your off idea... and have fun playing an adventure storyline focus versus worrying about the science of it all. Latter on we all started thinking about g-forces, but honestly I doubt TSR staff thought it out as much as we have here.  "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
 August 9, 2016 - 3:53pm | Didn't the last Star Wars movie include ending a hyper jump inside a planet's atmosphere? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
August 9, 2016 - 4:34pm | Didn't the last Star Wars movie include ending a hyper jump inside a planet's atmosphere? Yes, that's one of those JJ Abrams things along with blowing up planets for little dramatic reason, wrecking the Enterprise constantly, etc. "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" Joe Cabadas |
August 9, 2016 - 7:12pm | The KH rules seem to indicate that you always have to jump to a star... which doesn't make much sense... Agreed, but again I just don't see the need for it...except for the case of the dog-leg jump in question, which makes it a two jump voyage. but don't the Alpha Dawn rules pretty much give a referee carte blanch authority to make up whatever rules fit their game?
That they do, however the KH rules seem to contradict AD in the way that the Space Travel section of the AD Expanded Rules states that ships travel "many times faster than the speed of light" versus KH's "1% of light speed". It's quite the contrast, one that almost rivals Zeb's complete disregard of everything published before it. ;) |
August 9, 2016 - 7:26pm | But I can not ever remember reading that a ship must or can only jump between systems in KH. Off the top of my head the misjump rules covers it, stating that a misjump ends up with the ship arriving at a randos star within however many light years worth of jump travel from the intended star...in other words if you plot a seven LY jump and misjump you end up at a random star system in a 7LY radius from the intended target star. There may be other mentions along the way, without sourcing my books that's the one that immediately comes to mind. Well Star Wars did the whole zip thing too... Cinema mandates a near-instantaneous effect, otherwise you chew into the two hour time limit most movies aim for. Han Solo states the disastrous effects of hyperspace travel, stating that "without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce to close to a supernova" which would effectively "end our trip really quick". Yet due to the cinematic effect we don't see these plotted calculations because it's much more exciting to watch the Imperial fleet closing in on the light freighter as it attempts to escape...so we have the hand-waving navi-puters working away in the background instead, something else Solo mentions prior to that famous quote. Also noteworthy, not one single cinematic event ever explains how gravity works at a 90º angle relative to the plane of travel, yet we silently accept it each and every time. ;) |
 August 10, 2016 - 7:16pm | one fan solution to the dog leg is Point Go. This was stated to be a space station of something if I remember. It was an old website from the 90's. I kinda lean toward that as a development after the Zebulon route is well established. I initially like that the dog leg is required navigate through the nebulae. Later a space station pops up at that location to aid in repairs and other stuff encountered by ships having to risk a jump into deep space. I like the concept of ships being able to jump into deep space because it opens up great adventure possibilities with wandering planets and daralict ships and so forth. However I do consider jumping to a black spot in space extreemy risky because there is nothing like the star to line up your navigation on. -iggy |
August 10, 2016 - 7:26pm | Have you guys ever looked at the funky jump map with all it's curves... the one that shows Sathar routes... always wondered what they where thinking there too. Point Go could be an ancient alien artifact, that genrates a gravity field like a star... but no one get too close or bad stuff happens to their ships. So it's studied and ships use it to navigate but no one can solve the riddle... "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
August 10, 2016 - 9:17pm | My bad! It wasn't called Point Go, it was called Midway Station and it is from the old Hole In The Wall website which is archived here: http://sfus.starfrontiers.info/files/Roy%20Crismans%20Hole%20in%20the%20Wall%20logs.pdf Point Go is a planet in the Rim. I'm searching for more on Midway Station as the archive doesn't seem to have much on it. The old Listserv may have had a good post on Midway Station. -iggy |
August 10, 2016 - 9:26pm | The Listserv used to be archived here but it seems to be missing. http://starfrontiers.org/TheFrontier/download/list_archive.zip -iggy |
August 10, 2016 - 9:57pm | Midway Station is also listed here at the Frontier New Network in their 3D map coordinates. I searched the Listserv archive and could find nothing on Midway Station. Maybe I just remember this from the 3D map and it being listed in Hole in the Wall. I'm not sure I ever recall reading a discription or story behind Midway Station. -iggy |
August 11, 2016 - 6:34am | Have you guys ever looked at the funky jump map with all it's curves... the one that shows Sathar routes... always wondered what they where thinking there too.
If you speak of the WoWL exterior cover, that was an attempt to make a grid map for use with the Sathar War board game. It's hardly an accurate representation of the Frontier that should be sourced as actual travel routes, rather just something to track ship movement day by day for the SW2 scenario. |
August 11, 2016 - 9:41am | My bad! It wasn't called Point Go, it was called Midway Station and it is from the old Hole In The Wall website which is archived here: http://sfus.starfrontiers.info/files/Roy%20Crismans%20Hole%20in%20the%20Wall%20logs.pdf Point Go is a planet in the Rim. I'm searching for more on Midway Station as the archive doesn't seem to have much on it. The old Listserv may have had a good post on Midway Station. Thanks. That archival info has some interesting things to look at. Joe Cabadas |
August 11, 2016 - 10:19am | I like the idea of midway station. It's in interstellar space and little if any law applies though a Star Law marshal with a warrant isn't going to be stopped from apprehending a pirate or interstellar criminal. This a station out here where any thing can be bought and sold is not a bad idea for the setting. Most likely sponsored and run by the CFM even if you ignore Zebs material CFM is still KHs canon. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 11, 2016 - 11:14am | I like the idea of midway station. It's in interstellar space and little if any law applies though a Star Law marshal with a warrant isn't going to be stopped from apprehending a pirate or interstellar criminal. This a station out here where any thing can be bought and sold is not a bad idea for the setting. Most likely sponsored and run by the CFM even if you ignore Zebs material CFM is still KHs canon. And the name fo the place was Babylon 5... opps, wrong genre... You could always have a new Battle of Midway during SWII. Joe Cabadas |
August 11, 2016 - 5:14pm | Funny, you mention a WW2 battle, I once chatted with a guy who said he and friends re-fought a WW2 battle with KHs rules simple using the historic order of battle cruiser for cruiser, battleship for battleship etc. I guess it took awhile to finish. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
