 September 11, 2007 - 4:41pm | I actually haven't used Gamma Dawn for anything, but I'm going to be reading over it as part of a project I have lined up, using the mutations from GD as a basis for the powers for a genetically-engineered "supertrooper". If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. -- Carl Sagan |
 September 12, 2007 - 4:00am | I used it to create some intellegent plant life for an adventure with the kids. That's all so far. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 September 12, 2007 - 7:19am | I have not used it, and I don't think I even had a copy way back then. |
September 12, 2007 - 7:25am | I have not used it, and I don't think I even had a copy way back then. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
September 12, 2007 - 7:39am | I was thinking of updating it and expanding it to be more encompassing and to coordinate with the Cybernetics Handbook. A second edition. Were you the one that did Gamma World, or did someone else? |
September 12, 2007 - 7:55am | I was thinking of updating it and expanding it to be more encompassing and to coordinate with the Cybernetics Handbook. A second edition. Were you the one that did Gamma World, or did someone else? someone sent me a link to archived info on the 'net that had it. I modified it from the original, but gave credit to the originator in the foreword. I was never in communication with that individual. I hope he didn't mind me putting it together! I tried to find/contact him but to no avail. I consider it sorta mine now... :-P3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
September 24, 2007 - 9:09am | I was thinking of updating it and expanding it to be more encompassing and to coordinate with the Cybernetics Handbook. A second edition. Were you the one that did Gamma World, or did someone else? someone sent me a link to archived info on the 'net that had it. I modified it from the original, but gave credit to the originator in the foreword. I was never in communication with that individual. I hope he didn't mind me putting it together! I tried to find/contact him but to no avail. I consider it sorta mine now... :-PI was thinking of putting the Mentalist disciplines in it instead of in the 25th Anniversary Edition Rulebook. I was also thinking of putting a Geneticist advanced skill set into it and bioware as well (instead of in the cybernetics handbook, because they aren't really the same. Bioware is more of a genetic-based tech, using biology to create weapons and machines. Besides, the Cybernetics Handbook is going to get pretty full without bioware anyway). |
September 24, 2007 - 9:30am | Psionics and mutations aren't necessarily the same thing, though they can be related. Would you be just reprinting the Mentalist rules or would you be saying this is the place to go to get them? If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. -- Carl Sagan |
September 24, 2007 - 9:50am | The place to get them. Printing two updated sources with the same mechanic is redundant. I was thinking that they just seem out of place in the Rulebook, but would seem to fit right into the Gamma Dawn book, as is done in so many other games, fitting special powers in with genetics stuff, because it is considered a genetic trait. |
September 24, 2007 - 10:07am | I think a robust psionic handbook would be able to stand on its own. Genetic mutations are mutations - abberent deviations from normalcy. Having a mental mutation isn't like having a specific mentalist skill/etc. Some campaign settings won't have genetic muties in abundance but may have psionics in abundance (Star Wars has the Force, Star Trek has Vulcan telepathic disciplines, etc.). I don't think it's necessarily one and the same. I agree, though, that Psionics rules are out of place in the core ZG book, and probably should never have been included. They aren't given enough attention there, and seem somehow unfinished (that also goes for my watered-down mentalist PSA in the optional section of the digitally remastered Alpha Dawn book). But if a small introductory/watered-down Psionics optional section is to exist, so too should a small introductory/watered-down cybernetics optional system... and a small introductory/watered-down starship rules optional system... and a small introductory/watered-down mutation optional system... then if a Referee has a campaign where he wants to include those elements, they're present in a small form. If he wants a campaign to focus on one or more of these elements, then he should incorporate a separate rulesbook. But back to the original post... I think the way mental mutations are covered can co-exist in a campaign with psionics, and vice-versa, without one handbook requiring the other. It just takes some small amount of effort. So what if a mutie has "read thoughts" and it works with this limitation and that set of rules while a mentalist has "read thoughts" that works with a different set of limitations and a different set of rules? Their abilities work differently, so the mechanics can too. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
September 24, 2007 - 10:37am | I could beef up the Mentalist skills with a few more Mentalist powers and a point system, but even with that I don't think the book will be more than 50 pages (I don't feel like recreating the D&D2 Psionics Handbook for Star Frontiers). My thought was that because they're both small and somewhat related, they would work well in the same book. The idea is that they would be out of place in the Rulebook, but not so out of place in a genetics-based setting such as Gamma Dawn. It also makes it easy to expand the Frontier section of the supplement by featuring these outcast societies and behaviors in one place. I'm not really trying to innumerate books. In fact, I'd rather prefer to avoid it. As is evident in the 25th Anniversary Edition Rulebook, I have a preference for keeping materials in one place as much as possible, though I do like compartmentalization, but only where absolutely necessary. I don't think compartmentalizing Mentalist skills all by itself is absolutely necessary or necessary at all. It's easy to beef it up, but at a point it would become too much for the game. Besides, by putting Mentalist in with the genetics, it can make the Gamma Dawn book more popular. By having Mentalist in with the genetics, it keeps the Mentalist fans going to Gamma Dawn and seeing the interesting features in it and more likely to use those features in their campaigns. Also, I think fans of the Mentalist disciplines are in the same niche with fans of mutation. They are related concepts that can be appeased with a single book. I would like to avoid turning Star Frontiers into D&D, GURPS or Palladium. Star Frontiers is about providing the basics and letting the Refs do the rest in the Expanded game. |
September 24, 2007 - 10:42am | I wasn't inferring that we just need to make more powers. I just mean that in a setting where mentalist abilities are commonplace, there is a lot more meat that can be provided: new technology that is fuelled by or works with or against mentalist abilities, certain creatures that exhibit abilities or serve as a nullifier for it, organizations that revolve around it, laboratories that study or try to recreate it, NPC wages, the interesting idea of AI exhibiting/learning it? I don't know - even starships whose drives are powered by sleeper psions hooked up to the drive? Special universities or monastic orders where abilities can be learned if you're mind is strong enough, even if you don't come from a priveledged species that has the abilities natively... Three or four fleshed-out ideas for a campaign set in a Frontier with a Mentalism focus... Tons of ideas come to mind. It wouldn't be that hard to make a robust psionics handbook that would exceed 50 pages that could touch on all of these areas and more in order to help a Referee decide how much psionics to add to his campaign. But having one all-encompassing handbook that covered mentalism and genetics would be leaving out a handful of other FX stuff... cybernetics, etc. Who cares if a book is only 50 pages anyway? One of the strengths about distribution by PDF is that pagecount is a non-issue... it's all about the creativity and comprehensiveness and usefulness of the content. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
September 24, 2007 - 10:51am | I never thought of Mentalists in that sort of light because I never thought of Mentalists as being that common or affecting the Star Frontiers universe to such a degree, nor have I desired it to. I suppose I could just start a Mentalist project and just dump what I've done there and someone else can work on it if they want to, but I won't likely go back to it for any of that. |
September 24, 2007 - 12:11pm | I never thought of Mentalists in that sort of light because I never thought of Mentalists as being that common or affecting the Star Frontiers universe to such a degree, nor have I desired it to. I suppose I could just start a Mentalist project and just dump what I've done there and someone else can work on it if they want to, but I won't likely go back to it for any of that. woa... slow down there chief... I wasn't saying your book shouldn't have any of this stuff!! I also probably wouldn't use much mentalism stuff (in fact, in all the years I have run these games, the only mentalism I used is what is found in the optional section of the digitally-remastered stuff... and that was one campaign that lasted maybe a dozen sittings). I was just discussing the pros & cons of having a total comprehensive "FX" book versus each type of effects being covered in a more detailed form by their own sourcebooks...3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
September 24, 2007 - 12:21pm | I only offered the stuff I suggested as a solution for what I thought you meant. When you showed a bigger concept, I just determined it to be too big for my interest to do anything like that. I'm just looking to expand Gamma Dawn, and I thought it might be a good place to stuff the Mentalist disciplines as is and maybe expound on it a little bit in the Frontier section, as well as expanding the existing branch in the random mutation stuff. They do, after all, mention mental powers as one of the mutations. |
September 24, 2007 - 1:27pm | I only offered the stuff I suggested as a solution for what I thought you meant. When you showed a bigger concept, I just determined it to be too big for my interest to do anything like that. I'm just looking to expand Gamma Dawn, and I thought it might be a good place to stuff the Mentalist disciplines as is and maybe expound on it a little bit in the Frontier section, as well as expanding the existing branch in the random mutation stuff. They do, after all, mention mental powers as one of the mutations. You can certainly do that if you want - but there's a small problem :(All my original digitally remastered Word documents are gone. The hard drive on which they lived has been destroyed, as were the Word versions of the StarFrontiersman issues. All we have at this point are the PDFs on the site. It saddens me, but they're gone. You have no idea how frustrated and sad that makes me!! (*kicks self for not backing up*) 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
September 24, 2007 - 1:56pm | OUCH. I'm sorry to hear that. Have you sent out requests to everyone to resend any articles they sent to you? As for what we're talking about, is it okay if I go ahead and do that with Gamma Dawn? I can copy and past from the PDF no problem. Also, I think you might have missed my post below. |
September 24, 2007 - 1:47pm | Please - go ahead and do just that. I'm fine with any type of project being made on this site. If someone later has a different take on something any of us do, they should feel free to run with it too. Community creativity is something that has no place for egos - and I'm totally fine with anyone doing anything they want with anything I've put out - whether it was my mind that came up with it or whether it was through submissions. :-) Have fun with it! 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
September 24, 2007 - 3:07pm | I've been copying and pasting all the hundreds of mutations and really this book already has every single one of the Mentalist abilities. It's just lacking the Mentalist profession. However, I'd like to separate the mentalist stuff into the Mentalist section so that it can be accessed separately. And with all the psionic mutations, it will create a substantial Mentalist section all its own anyway and that will help relieve the burdon on the mutations section. |
 October 10, 2007 - 3:51pm | To be honest, Gamma World has always kind of depressed me. Everything all blown up. Mutations rather than cancer - which is really what that world would be like, just a giant cancer cluster. One reason why I like SF so much is it's positive view of the future. An interplanetary community of at least 4 races stuggling to get along and get ahead. Some may even call it naive. That's fine by me. In terms of Mentalists, well to be honest when I saw it in Zebs that was kind of the last nail in the coffin for me on that book. It just makes me think of Deanna Troi. I just can't get that image out of my head in regards to that. Now granted, I like the image in terms of the low-cut tights (that skirt uniform particularly) but her role in the shows with her "feelings" was pretty nauseating. |
October 10, 2007 - 5:57pm | Zeb's came 2 years before Next Generation. |
October 10, 2007 - 6:35pm | I did not read Zebs until about a year ago. |
 October 14, 2007 - 5:30pm | To be honest, Gamma World has always kind of depressed me. Everything all blown up. Mutations rather than cancer - which is really what that world would be like, just a giant cancer cluster. One reason why I like SF so much is it's positive view of the future. An interplanetary community of at least 4 races stuggling to get along and get ahead. Some may even call it naive. That's fine by me. In terms of Mentalists, well to be honest when I saw it in Zebs that was kind of the last nail in the coffin for me on that book. It just makes me think of Deanna Troi. I just can't get that image out of my head in regards to that. Now granted, I like the image in terms of the low-cut tights (that skirt uniform particularly) but her role in the shows with her "feelings" was pretty nauseating. I feel...I feel...I feel...like dancing.... Most SF players feel about Zebs the same way most BSG fans felt about 1980...not only was it apocryphal, but it was crap.... Same way I feel about TNG, by the by. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
October 16, 2007 - 12:40pm | I'd bang Troi... ...I'm just sayin 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 16, 2007 - 7:49pm | To be honest, Gamma World has always kind of depressed me. Everything all blown up. Mutations rather than cancer - which is really what that world would be like, just a giant cancer cluster. One reason why I like SF so much is it's positive view of the future. An interplanetary community of at least 4 races stuggling to get along and get ahead. Some may even call it naive. That's fine by me. In terms of Mentalists, well to be honest when I saw it in Zebs that was kind of the last nail in the coffin for me on that book. It just makes me think of Deanna Troi. I just can't get that image out of my head in regards to that. Now granted, I like the image in terms of the low-cut tights (that skirt uniform particularly) but her role in the shows with her "feelings" was pretty nauseating. I feel...I feel...I feel...like dancing.... Most SF players feel about Zebs the same way most BSG fans felt about 1980...not only was it apocryphal, but it was crap.... Same way I feel about TNG, by the by. I don't think the problem is Zeb's. As I've demonstrated with the AER (Anniversary Edition), there's very little difference between Zeb's and Alpha Dawn. What Zeb's did was bundle Kimber's Dragon Magazine articles with Alpha Dawn and provide the Column Shift mechanic, individualized skills, an extended Timeline, and 4 new races (granted, badly done races). Though the skills were multiplied, the skills mechanic has more freedom, so I don't really see it as compounding the problem. A little cosmetic adjustment to the new races provided and use the timeline and it's still Star Frontiers. Why? Because all it did was add to the story line. You can still use the Alpha Dawn mechanics with it (as I've done with AER). Mechanically is the only way that Zeb's messed with the Star Frontiers game system, but it didn't do it in an entirely incompatable way. Dump the Zeb's mechanics and the game is still playable as Star Frontiers. I fully understand why people rank on the mechanics and the races, but not anything else. Except for the mechanics, what Kimber did with Zeb's is basically what is happening in the pages of the Frontiersman. |
October 17, 2007 - 3:50am | It wasn't just that, Corjay. Zebs was supposed to help Star Frontiers, to be a new edition, at a time when sci-fi gaming was beginning to blossom and Traveller was taking the spotlight as the hard-science supergame. Some of the ideas were great - but it fell so short of all of our expectations for many reasons: a modified game mechanic that nobody liked, artwork that fell way short of what we were used to and what Traveller was putting out, a skill system that went for quantity rather than quality, races that were just so silly they were unplayable - even my 7 year old thinks they're dumb, etc. It's not that it's unsalvagable -- I get that. It's that it was such a dissappointment we just wish it was never put out. It did kill the line. After lackluster interest in that book, TSR didn't publish any further SF material, and even Dragon Magazine halted its sci-fi section. To me, it's like that one Highlander movie that took place in the future: it just should never have been made, and it's better to pretend it wasn't -- just take what few salvagable elements it had that were good and ignore it entirely. That's the opinion most StarFrontiers gamers take. But of course this thread shouldn't be jacked by a Zeb's discussion - since the original post involves Gamma Dawn experiences. Maybe a new thread - if anyone is interested in furthering the discussion - is in order. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 17, 2007 - 7:39am | Agreed. No more Zeb's hating here. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 November 1, 2007 - 7:06pm | I did use the Gamma Dawn rules to make up a Wolverine-type character a few weeks ago, but I haven't used him yet. I've been considering making him a Yazarian. Wings and claws seem like a good combination... "Rome didn't build an empire by having meetings. They did it by killing those who stood in their way." |
