Dyson Sphere; Planet

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 4, 2015 - 6:39am
If you poke around you will find some criticism of the idea of Dyson Sphere, such as rising levels of heat and other radiation trapped within the sphere and the lack of enough material in a solar system to build one and so on.

What if you scaled it down to just be a planet that was encased in a dyson sphere? It would reduce the complexity of the structure by several orders of magnitude.

Of course this would beg the question of why would you enclose a world with a dyson sphere? Things like the sarcoffagus enclosing Chernoble come to mind. Some vast danger that the only answer by an advance race was to shut it up.

Solar radiation is intercepted so is the world deathly cold or does the natural furnace at its core produce enough heat that the dyson shell acts as a green house? Naturally there would be defenses that would try to prevent the PCs from entering or openning the sphere. There might be drifting hulks of the ships that were the interdiction fleet while the dyson sphere was being built.

The danger posed by whats within would have to be on a grand scale to warrent this effort.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!
Comments:

iggy's picture
iggy
January 4, 2015 - 3:39pm
Could be a way to contain an atmpsphere on a planet with no magnetic field.  The Planet is in the goldielocks zone and prime for life but it has no atmosphere because the solar wind just blows it away.

Maybe the owners were experimenting with restarting a dying magnetic field and failed so this is their backup.  They put a shell over their paradise.

I imagine that a dyson sphere over a planet would have a very sophisticated orbit control so that it does not crash into the planet.  A dyson sphere over a star has the equal pressure of the star's solar wind to keep it centered around the star.
-iggy

Tollon's picture
Tollon
January 4, 2015 - 4:06pm

Some depictions and descriptions of a Dyson sphere use an opening at the north and south pole to dissipate the heat generated by the star.  Another uses a single opening as a method of propulsion.  A third uses a handwavium device to control the star's energy output.

 

As far as it being used to contain a planet that's a bit extreme in my book?  Such a drastic method would suggest that the planet itself is somehow infectious or cause harm to the surrounding solar systems (Chernobyl example).  Containment of a race would be far easier by use of an orbital array of satellites (Deep Space 9 had an episode using this method).

 

Now what might work is the Hollow Earth scenario.

 

An alien race builds a near earth size Dyson Sphere ship as a way of escaping from their sun going supernova.  The ship is of the sublight variety and takes thousands of years to reach another solar system.  They have conquered everything necessary to make the inside of the ship a working biosphere.  Instead of a star, they use a series of lights mounted in the center that mimic the sun's ambient light source, which would solve the overheating problem.

 

During it travels through normal space, the outer surface collects dust, ice and organic material. At some point, the ship's asteroid and meteor defense systems begin to fail allowing more material to collect on the outer surface.  After  'X' number of thousands of years the ship is finally captured by a star.  It just so happens to settle an orbit within the star's habitable zone.  The exterior of the ship is now covered in a thick layer of material and an atmosphere begins to form. At this point, an asteroid penetrates the hull of this causing just enough damage to the interior hull and allow the interior biosphere a chance to escape and populate the surface.

 

The genetically alter plants from the interior which make it to the surface, now spread rapidly as they mutate under the radiation of the primitive atmosphere.  Over the next few thousand years, the planet develops a true earth like atmosphere primed for habitation.

 

Scenario include:

 

1.  The ship is believed to be a planetoid and it's only after a mining corporation starts sink a shaft do they realize there is a hull under the newly formed crust.

 

2.  The inhabitants have made their way to the surface and the culture is divided between those who live on the outside and the inside.

 

3.  Instead of few thousand years, 10's of thousand years have passed.  Those who moved to the outside of the ship have forgotten that they are living on the outside and have no idea of the culture inside.

 

4.  The ship is believed to be a planet ready for colonization until some part of the ship is discovered leading the team to investigate the planet further.

 

5.  The inhabitants of the ship have no idea they are inside an artificial world having survived some catastrophic event which made them forgot their true origins.


Further adventure are possible...


Malcadon's picture
Malcadon
January 4, 2015 - 4:04pm
Don't forget the dangers of orbital stability. And don't forget that a "Dyson sphere" takes on multiple forms, from a simple Dyson ring to a solid Dyson shell (as seen on ST:TNG).

An actual "Dyson sphere" is just a swarm of orbital solar arrays, called a Dyson swarm or bubble. Placing orbital solar arrays in the orbit of a planet makes sense if you place them in the "Trojan belts" of Lagrange points 4 and 5. If a planet have a large enough moon, then they can be placed in the moon's Trojan belts. The power can be collected and stored in space, or transmitted by microwave or laser to the planet's surface. Such an array could produce a lot of abundant energy.

As for a solid Dyson shell or ring world structure, that would likely be the artifact of an alien culture far more advanced then would you could find in the Frontier.

As for why someone might build it? It could be that a planet survived its sun going nova and someone seeing that the planet is worth saving, build a structure around the planet to trap and focus what little solar energy the dwarf star gives off to make it more livable. Imagine being on that planet where the sun is in the opposite end of the sky where the sun should be (this false sun is just focused sun light projected off the solar array), and where the sun is, it is just a dim disk in the night sky (the star is too dim to give off direct sun light). Any cultures that developed on the planet form ignorance would have a sense of Astronomy (and myths) that is a little more alien than what would develop on a normal planet.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 4, 2015 - 5:19pm
Hollow world idea is interesting.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Tollon's picture
Tollon
January 4, 2015 - 7:33pm

Since Malcedon brought up the subject of ringworlds, I would like to suggest the following four  types of ringworlds.

 

1.  Larry Niven's Classic ringworld.

2.  Smaller free standing Ringworld. From the game Halo, a smaller version.

3.  Planetary Ringworld.  A ringworld around a planet in place of a moon.

4.  Ferris wheel.  From the movie Elysium.

 

1 and 2 are ringworlds designed after one designed by Larry Niven describe in his book.  1 is quite large and circles a star, while 2 is placed around a star within habitable zone.  1 used panels to create night and day cycles, while 2 uses its axis relative to the star creates the night and day cycle.  1 requires an entire solar system of material while 2 may only need several planet's worth or an asteroid belt.

 

3.  Smaller than 1 and 2, the ringworld orbits a planet and act's like the planet's moon.

 

4.  Smaller still, the space station in Elysium appears to have the attributes of a ringworld.  Ships can enter the living area by going over a lip which holds in the atmosphere.   A central hub provides stability for the ring as well as a equipment, landing and storage area.  Night and day cycles are provided by the station traveling around the planet.

 

AS he stated in his post, these type of ringworlds would be above SF tech Level.  Usage in game would be minimal considering that any such adventure would have to be a full blow campaign because of their size alone.


RanulfC's picture
RanulfC
March 6, 2015 - 8:15pm
>snip lots of good stuff<
Tollon wrote:
 

Now what might work is the Hollow Earth scenario.

 


Book recollection alert! There was a book I read a long time ago where humans had found a world which was very large but had less gravity than it should but still more than one G. After all was said and done, (and it's probably telling I have NO idea what went on in the actual story) the characters find out the REASON is the "planet" is actually a containment for a blackhole which is where the gravity comes from.

IIRC the blackhole was also remotely powering the rememnts of the super-civilization that built the planet but not at all sure since I can't recall details.


Comment on the dual-surface word: After thousands of years the penatration does not have to be an asteroid. By that time I would figure all if not most of the original "locks" for different purposes. (The inhabitants may have forgotten they live on a starship but the orginal builders would have had a LOT of reasons to install them in the first place)


The main impediment of having "civilizations" on either surface is going to be a serious lack of materials for those inside and shortages for those outside once they get going anywhere.

Lack of a magentic field is going to be an issue for those on the outer surface as is atmosphere leakage and breakdown. I'd see an upper limit of 'habatiablity' being less than a thousand years easy.


Randy


Tollon's picture
Tollon
March 7, 2015 - 8:30pm
A bit of Discovery Channel Science:  Saw a docudrama about exploring the solar system.  To reduce the weight of the ship and protect the crew, the ship used a magnetic feild generator to block some of the radiation.  This could be an explaination for why the dyson sphere appears to be a planet because it does have a magnetic field created by a generator for the purpose I stated above.

jedion357's picture
jedion357
March 9, 2015 - 3:28am
Tollon wrote:
A bit of Discovery Channel Science:  Saw a docudrama about exploring the solar system.  To reduce the weight of the ship and protect the crew, the ship used a magnetic feild generator to block some of the radiation.  This could be an explaination for why the dyson sphere appears to be a planet because it does have a magnetic field created by a generator for the purpose I stated above.


An electromagnetic solar sail might have the same effect, I'd have to read up on it again.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

RanulfC's picture
RanulfC
March 9, 2015 - 3:46pm
jedion357 wrote:
Tollon wrote:
A bit of Discovery Channel Science:  Saw a docudrama about exploring the solar system.  To reduce the weight of the ship and protect the crew, the ship used a magnetic feild generator to block some of the radiation.  This could be an explaination for why the dyson sphere appears to be a planet because it does have a magnetic field created by a generator for the purpose I stated above.


An electromagnetic solar sail might have the same effect, I'd have to read up on it again.

Pretty close in that the "shield" has less drag than the "sail" does but the basic of generating them in principle is the same. (The "sail" tends to require a larger field with reinforcing by an external ring/generator IIRC)

Your main problem is that the external atmosphere is not going to be self-generating and will "quickly" (thousand{s} of years if it was deep enough at the start) disipate due to a lack of geological process'. Mars went that way and Venus will eventually too though it had a much deeper atmosphere to start with AND has enough internal heating to keep things going for a long time.
(IIRC Venus "runaway-greenhouse" effect is in fact internally driven as the sun doesn't contribute as much as people tend to think due to the cloud layer's reflectivity level)

Randy

RanulfC's picture
RanulfC
March 9, 2015 - 3:52pm
iggy wrote:
Could be a way to contain an atmpsphere on a planet with no magnetic field.  The Planet is in the goldielocks zone and prime for life but it has no atmosphere because the solar wind just blows it away.

Maybe the owners were experimenting with restarting a dying magnetic field and failed so this is their backup.  They put a shell over their paradise.

I imagine that a dyson sphere over a planet would have a very sophisticated orbit control so that it does not crash into the planet.  A dyson sphere over a star has the equal pressure of the star's solar wind to keep it centered around the star.

Was going to comment on this; I'd suspect that the "Dyson Sphere" would in fact be in a geo-synchronis orbit and held "down" by what amount to space-elevator cables at the proper points.
(spell checker sees "no spelling errors" but I'm pretty sure that's NOT spelled right :) )

Randy

Tchklinxa's picture
Tchklinxa
March 14, 2015 - 7:08pm
It could use anti-gravity super sci-fi tech to stay in place...

It could be keeping something in or the universe out. Tomb Planet? Prison for some very nasty group of aliens? Isolationist society? An encased intelligent planet that messes with people?
 "Never fire a laser at a mirror."

Tollon's picture
Tollon
March 28, 2015 - 6:15pm

http://gizmodo.com/a-new-type-of-dyson-sphere-may-be-nearly-impossible-to-1694258669

Here is an article that just showed up on Yahoo about dyson spheres...