 November 4, 2014 - 8:25pm | Okay when people immigrate today (and in the past immigrated) often names are changed... there are a lot of people with names that have nothing to do with their family history, or what their name meant in another language. These name changes can be pretty arbitrary, and some peoples spellings were changed to something close in English but sometimes not at all & for many of us it is the whim of the paper pusher it seems if your name has anything to do with your ancestor's name (or you lucked out and someone moved pre-Immigration paper pushers)... also in a culture that practically demands a last name if you come from a culture that does not do last names, guess what your getting one! Singingbird or maybe Smith. Currently there are a surprising number of children enrolled in school with these names: Gnu Lnu & Fnu Lnu which means Given Name Unknown Last Name Unknown or First Name Unknown Last Name Unknown. Probably the weirdest of the paperwork snafus created by how we do stuff in the USA, I am sure the children have real names but for some reason their legal paperwork says that... something to do with VISAs & Immigration status. Sigh. So UPF citizenship? Obviously people born on the various member Government planets of the 4 Core are citizens, but what does that mean? I am inclined to see the UPF less like the USA & maybe a bit more like the EU on passport type stuff. So people traveling with in the UPF could have one or the other I suppose. But what about races immigrating in or from aboriginal races? Has anyone considered how this would be handled? What happens if someone from the UPF has issues in the Rim or vice a versa... just think about all the immigration/diplomatic issues that can and do occur... I am so going to do terrible things to NPC names now... so players can wonder why everyone from planet x of race y have all the same first name Fnu or all the same last name Lnu!  And maybe some folks from outside the Frontier with names that just don't fit, so people can have absurd names depending on the Core 4 paper pusher  just like real life. Just imagine a Dralasite renaming someone. I am seriously considering a UPF Immigration Center. "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
 November 4, 2014 - 9:51pm | I've never considered the UPF as having citizens, just like you can't be a citizen of the United Nations. Your citizenship is held on the planet of your birth or to which you've applied for citizenship status. Thus you could be a citizen of Clarion or Triad or Pale but not a citizien of the UPF. So I guess more like the EU model. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 November 4, 2014 - 10:14pm | I would not equate the UPF to the EU. Rather I would say that similar to the EU, citizens of one world can travel to another world without applying for visas because of reciprical agreements. However I have often made players pass through immegration as they enter and leave worlds. Their ident cards are their pass ports. Even in the EU people carry their pass ports to travel between countries. -iggy |
 November 5, 2014 - 1:36am | I don't think that people would have to change their names. There are so many diverse names via the various races that everyone would be used to pronouncing them. I agree with Iggy that there would be agreements about travel and immigration. The UPF would be the umbrella organisation under which the various agreements and rules sit. There would thus be no need for any sort of UPF citizenship. There'd probably also be a single form of ID can covers everything whenever some travels from planet to planet. |
 November 5, 2014 - 9:07am | PA Dutch farmer, named Miller, is visiting NYC for first time and sees "Miller's Chinese Food". Goes and question's obvious Chinese man about his name being Miller. "When my grandfather came thru Ellis Island the man in front of him gave his name as Johann Miller. When it was my grandfather's turn the clerk asked him, 'Name?' And he said 'Tame Ting' and the clerk wrote Johann Miller. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 5, 2014 - 8:08pm | LOL... too funny. I honestly pretty much have been doing similar to everyone else with local govs & IDent Card, it just occurred to me though there is more to "citizenship" which led to questions like what if people from outside the Frontier moved in? Are their kids auto citizens if born in someone's space? There are some really weird rules here on planet Earth from country to country... so I imagine weird rules could exist in space too. Would there be consulates from say the Rim worlds or would each member world gov have consulates on each other's worlds? Just thinking about what shape the whole diplomatic/customs/immigration/refugee type situations might be like in UPF Space & with Rim Space. It need not be complicated, just musing on all the weird stuff that has been in the news over the years... stuff like countries that recognizes people of descent as their citizens even if not born in their country for generations, or how some people hold double citizenship, or how there are countries we have no agreements with concerning our citizens or crime... so yes you could be kidnapped to said place with no chance in hell of rescue, or you could escape to said country... What do you do if you wake up in another world with no $ or ID & you don't speak the language? (happened to someone I know on planet Earth, waking up in another country 1000's of miles away from USA). How about countries who have actually kidnapped people for weird reasons... like North Korea kidnapping a film director and actress to make Monster films. There are some weird things that happen on this 3rd rock from Sol, so they could happen in SF space too.  I sort of figure major trade races from the Rim might have some sort of legal representation in the UPF. It makes logical sense, for some sort of diplomatic type stuff & places to exist. Or is this more a wild wild early colonization approach... maybe an outpost in claimed space is the closest help? "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
 November 6, 2014 - 10:37am | I'm using the UPF more as TO said... like a UN or NATO but that basically has the ability to tax or extract dues from every member planet for protection services form the Sathar and to a lesser degree space born criminal elements. So in a sense the UPF is the soveriern the Space between systems... deep space. Space within the heliospheres of a system would be the domain of the local planets. So, people aren't really citizen's of the UPF but of member planets. And as far as open visa passport arrangements among member planets... no, not automatic. Every planet can govern itself as it sees fit so two planets could be unfriendly and deny entry of citizens holding IDs from thier enemies. The UPF wouldn't even stop two planets from waring with each other in thier perspective heliospheres.... they would only try to interceed if fighting happens on the space lanes or if the conflict directly effected a third party. Now... that all said... I just ran a adventure where the PCs interfered with a planet's local civil war in a very unoffical capacity. The UPF ship was repainted as a civilain ship, PCs claimed to be mercs or arms dealers contracted by the resistance. The only reason the UPF did this was because the ruler of the small planet claimed seccession and stopped sending them thier money. They want thier money, so they hope to help the resistance which is pro-UPF. I plan on having a mission on Athor and when the crew touches down via civillian shuttle for RnR they will find protestors shouting anti-UPF slogans. Yazerians for Yazerian space sort of thing. The first mission planet was run by Vrusk royalty and was mostly vrusk, the Athor stuff is going to obviously be mostly Yazerian... so I am assuming there is and always will be some racial tension. But also people that feel the UPF is trying to grow into a ruling empire, infringing system rights... much like the situation we have with the UN in real life. ----------------------------------------------- |
November 6, 2014 - 10:40am | And a followup to your questions about diplomatic/customs/immigration/refugee type situations... In my game every planet would have its own laws.... so there is no galactic standard. Plenty of people might be pushing for that sort of thing... same exact political conflic we have today of centralized government (power) vs distributed government (power)... big vs little UPF. ----------------------------------------------- |
 November 9, 2014 - 6:49am | or power with the Federal government vs State Government and visa versa |
 November 15, 2014 - 5:09am | The Saurians are refugees, so they might be the subject of this scenario. I could also see a similar situation with the Bora-kai. Mhemne maybe, although they technically have a planet. It's just frozen. |
November 15, 2014 - 7:43pm | The Saurians are refugees, so they might be the subject of this scenario. I could also see a similar situation with the Bora-kai. Mhemne maybe, although they technically have a planet. It's just frozen. you could get a situation where a planet desires a influx of labor and offers citizenship and other bennies I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 2, 2015 - 8:40pm |
I prefer to go with what's described in Alpha Dawn. The Basic rules are clear that UPF isn't a government (I read that as 'not a soverign state'). It's a defensive alliance. Therefore, it follows that no one can be a citizen of it. Citizenship is a matter for member worlds to decide.
I note that Zeb Cook seems to imply a quite different set up in this Dragon Magazine: article;http://www.spy.net/~curator/_empire.htm He compares the UPF to the United States, there! :()
The overall trend of development across published materials seems to be:
Alpha Dawn/early modules: UPF is an alliance not a federal government. Tellingly, there's no mention of a Space Fleet. One may well assume that the only significant armed force under direct UPF control is the Star Law Rangers, who are essentially a paramilitary police and security service.
Knight Hawks/later modules: the UPF appears to be decentralized in a number of ways, but now it has a unified Space Fleet, which makes it look more like a federal government with power to impose its will by force.
Zeb's Guide; after the timeline leap, the UPF appears to be a federal government in space, and overall a lot more explored and developed than it had been in past decades. Zeb Cook's comparison with the United States now looks like a better fit.
Anyone else notice a similiar pattern? Am I missing something?
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May 2, 2015 - 10:51pm | I think that reflects the development, It seems to me the planets still retain independance but the UPF gains a greater juristiction in space, so things like space stations are under interstellar law & not the planet they orbit... which seems a bit strange but there is a module that mentions this. My guess is the races probably early on agreed to some space station rules even before the UPF was founded. There is probably some grey areas. "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
May 3, 2015 - 3:11pm | I agree, that in its infantcy it was a defensive alliance and it developed and consolidated power over time. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 3, 2015 - 7:31pm | Look at the history of the United States. Started as a Confederation with a very weak central government. Then moved into a Democracy with more centralized control. Fast forward to the Civil War which had alot to do with States rights (OK the right to keep slaves but you get it). Most of the units fighting it were state units and not directly under federal control. (Army that is Navy was mostly federal). By the end of the war federal control had increased greatly. Great Depression allowed the federal government to further increase control and well WWII was a federal show. That's a general overview there were alot of little changes that gradually increased federal control, currently gay marriage is one as in its a state issue but the federal government is making the final determination since the states can't seem to make a unified law. UPF probably did the same thing. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
May 4, 2015 - 5:07am | Yep so I think time is a factor in what the UPF does or does not do, plus the refs leanings... I am going to go back in time so my Fed will be wild west more when it forms... but then events will unfold in a different timeline to Zebs or the modules more than likely after a certain point, I want a preSWI setting to start in, this way the Sathar make a huge impact on the PCs. "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
May 4, 2015 - 2:00pm | One of the most important and most ignored parts of this cnetral government exerting greater control is the speed of communication. Recently the governor of Maryland could call up National Guard troops in 24 hours but back in the day the Battle of New Orleans was fought even though the war had ended. If you do not use subspace radio of any great power and relie upon ship route communications then your central government control will be weak. Powerful subspace would allow for greater central government control. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
May 4, 2015 - 6:21pm | I agree with that rattraveller, I am thinking of having the fastest publically available radio be 10% c & having only a few difficult to use fast subspace. Even STL ships in my thinking at around 85% c are faster than the radio I am thinking of. "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
May 4, 2015 - 6:58pm | Well, by definition, radio waves travel at the speed of light. So they are always going to be faster than a ship that travels only at sub-light velocities. As to subspace radio, if you aren't using that, and just rely on FTL ships for your fast communication, then the Frontier becomes just small enough to manage from a central location (i.e. Prenglar). Assuming you didn't have to slow down much, it takes about a month to cross the Frontier which is about the communication delay that works for governance. Much longer than that an things start to fall apart because the government doesn't find out about things in time to react. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
May 4, 2015 - 8:03pm | Okay, that might work, I figure this is pre UPF so Prenglar has a big trade station the races built for trade and diplomacy issues (ripping off the Pride novels... Meet-point Station... just works perfect.) and they have just started colonizing in that system together, basically every one is doing a land grab & it is pretty much system governments, but different races have things to trade the others need, it is not all one big happy frontier... most tech is not unified, & no one has ever met or heard of the Sathar yet. Some Humans are freaked out about the Drals & Vrusks being already buddies & the Vrusk having the better FTL. Culture clashes exist. Yazi's have shown up too... so I have to have no Star Law, no UPF for a bit first... then something will trigger the Sathar into action... "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
May 5, 2015 - 3:33am | Tchklinxa, you should check out the Adventures in History progect. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 5, 2015 - 9:51am | I will check it out "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
 May 5, 2015 - 10:42am | What's all this talk about the UPF not being a government? Of course it's a government—it's just not a soverign government. Each planetary government is soverign or, if there are planets with independent multiple nations, each nation on such a planet is soverign. Unlike the United States of America under the Articles of Confederation, the UPF maintains large standing military forces, though both have important militias under soverign rule. |
May 5, 2015 - 12:11pm | The UPF is a gov I agree, I think it is just looser control wise at the beginning & gradually becomes more like a centeralized gov over time... diverse species all first agree to work together for trade & protection, it's a gradual thing... as the Federation expands, goes through changes, history, situations, all that changes it's definitions of who belongs and it's power being exercised. Thus the question... at some point in the timeline maybe in the future the concept of a UPF Citizen will exist. Something could happen that involve citizens of mutiple UPF worlds and the only way the UPF and the member worlds can resolve the issue with the outside force (foriegn government) will probably ultimetly end up creating the UPF Citizenship. Maybe a cruise ship gets siezed, who knows, but for treaty purposes when it is all said in done UPF Citizenship would exist. "Never fire a laser at a mirror." |
 May 5, 2015 - 5:34pm | Read the Lensman series of books, the Galactic Patrol is pretty much the same thing. The UPF fleet is the might of the Starlaw which could be likened to the Lensmen. It acts as an independent force from planetary governments, yet is funded by all of them. The only reason no one world can control or bride the Lensmen is that Lensmen are incorruptable, can't say the same for the Starlaw however. In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
May 7, 2015 - 12:27pm | @Tchklinxa --- in my game, systems are mostly claimed by a single planet so being born in the heliosphere would subject the child to potential dual citizenship ship laws of that system and the laws of the parent(s) of the offspring. So potentially it could get complicated. But in general most planets would offer citezenship inheritance to the offspring from the parent but there could be exceptions. Inside heliospheres where multiple planets don't get alone it could get even more complicated... so potentially a person could end up with citizenship to many planets, but not the UPF directly. In reality, I also don't assume evey planet is ruled by a unified, one world governement... but probably that is more the rule in many of the cases. ----------------------------------------------- |
May 7, 2015 - 12:43pm | In the case of a central government presiding over sovereign planets, it's not necessary to create a centralized citizenship status; any documents can simply refer to "citizens of any member planet" or the like. It really depends what benefits being a citizen confers. Note also that some planets may not consider all its inhabitants to be "citizens," or not all of its citizens to be enfranchised or equal. Maybe on a certain Vrusk-dominated planet only Vrusks can vote. The disenfranchised on this planet would still be able to vote in UPF elections, but not in local elections. Political systems can take many and varied forms. |
May 7, 2015 - 4:26pm | Another point would be new colonies and when they get their own rights and not considered part of the mother planet.Take the five US territories. The people there are considered US citizens but can't vote in national elections and have limited representation. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
May 7, 2015 - 9:31pm |
IMSF, children born in space usually have subject or citizen status based on the status of their parents. But there are some stateless persons in the Frontier. Some states might revoke citizenship for political crimes. Note that I'm going with the description in AD. The UPF not a gov't, but a defensive alliance. Think NATO and Interpol, not even the EU. It's an IGO (intergovernmental organization).
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May 8, 2015 - 8:53am | @rattraveller that is just a typical growth struggle for independence. Some mother planets might hold on to thier colony's tightly others might let the colony simply vote itself to indepenance. Again, every planet's governemental structure and culture can be different. If the mother planet is tyrantical and the colony profitable, most likely they will hold on tight and go to war to put down a rebellion. This is just another area of conflict that would be good room for adventures. But still -- not a UPF concern really. ----------------------------------------------- |
