 February 10, 2014 - 8:40pm | "Thank you for contacting Hasbro regarding the usage of Wizards of the Coast's intellectual property and for your patience while the appropriate teams reviewed your request. My name is Sam. I am the customer-facing representative that works with those teams, and I have been directed to provide you with their answer. While we all appreciate your enthusiasm for Star Frontiers, Wizards is unable to grant you permission to use our intellectual property in the manner you have requested. Thanks again for caring enough to ask first! Sam Team Lead Customer Service and Game Support Wizards of the Coast" I've made a couple of requests to WotC over the years for the permission to translate my old game books into an interactive website for fans. Each time, denied. :-( |
 February 16, 2014 - 7:50pm | Always gets me when people go on and on about the Affordable Sunglasses Act by the UPF when as some members of this list know very well the small planet of Massa-chuset has had the law on the books for many years now. All the Yazirians there have not been screaming about it too much. (Well they have been screaming about the cost but what can they do its the law) Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 February 17, 2014 - 6:48pm | True, the Affordable Sungoggles Act does draw aspects from the Masa-chuset plan. But that still doesn't make it a good idea. The interstellar version has still proven itself to be a huge mess that costs UPF citizens 2-3 times more than the prior system and will continue to get more expensive as time goes on. |
February 17, 2014 - 6:49pm | While the initial long winded post was meant as tongue in cheek humor, I apologize for the thinly veiled political message behind it all. I got a little caught up in the moment.  |
 February 20, 2014 - 8:34am | you guys crack me up. I'm picturing all the humans walking around blinded by sungoggles they don't need. ----------------------------------------------- |
 February 23, 2014 - 9:36pm | As to module Animux seems to have indicated the original modules formated as an interactive possibly choose your path sort of thing and the license Tom obtained bars us from publishing modules that we write even if we dont make a dime. I was just focused on the commonality of both of those rejections. It would seem that both rejections stem from a single point of origin and I'm wondering what that might be. For the life of me I cant imagine what it is.
Could it be that modules allow users to play the game using their game system (IP); while everything else posted is derivative sci-fi material that while useful for SF, really could be used for any game system?
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 February 24, 2014 - 4:18am | As to module Animux seems to have indicated the original modules formated as an interactive possibly choose your path sort of thing and the license Tom obtained bars us from publishing modules that we write even if we dont make a dime. I was just focused on the commonality of both of those rejections. It would seem that both rejections stem from a single point of origin and I'm wondering what that might be. For the life of me I cant imagine what it is.
Could it be that modules allow users to play the game using their game system (IP); while everything else posted is derivative sci-fi material that while useful for SF, really could be used for any game system?
Not sure if I buy that but that could be the thinking. It just seems at odds with them putting out an OGL and with Pathfinder being able to do what they do. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 February 24, 2014 - 7:13am | Just speculation on my part of course but sometimes I wonder if the OGL and Pathfinder are exactly the reason they won't do it. They lost a lot of market share to Pathfinder and don't want that to happen again. Not that Star Frontiers is such a huge property for them but that could be the corporate mindset. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
February 24, 2014 - 10:20am | @Terl Obar: That makes sense. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 24, 2014 - 10:50am | I agree with what TerlObar said. From what I've read the OGL was a black eye for WotC and they've changed course. |
 February 24, 2014 - 11:16am | From the business point of view the old WotC guys sold Hasbro an empty shell, brand names only, because they has put the value into the OGL. Then they went and started Pathfinder after they had made their money selling the old brand name. Now they are racking in profits on what they kept from Hasbro by going OGL. What I wander is why Hasbro doesn't take them on in the OGL market. Maybe it is because the OGL market requires continuous work publishing modules and suplements to make money and the model they want is to write once and make onging money. They maybe don't want the continuous development cycles. -iggy |
February 24, 2014 - 12:23pm | It costs money and or time to develop professional RPG products. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 25, 2014 - 3:16pm | According to internet legend and a few articles written by former WotC/Hasbro employees, Hasbro's only interest in WotC was its Magic collectible card game product line. The market for D&D, Avalon Hill/SPI games and the other niche products included in the deal were too small for a company the size of Hasbro to care about marketing. Hasbro is printing some of the more popular AH type games they acquired which you can find on their website. Their response to inquiries from wargame fans has been that if their is ever enough demand for a title held in their lineup of classic AH games, they will be more than happy to reprint it. Sadly I believe them. They have sold off some of the more popular AH game producst like Squad Leader, Republic of Rome and a few others who's name escapes me. It is my opinion that if someone made a serious offer--cash in hand--for either Star Frontiers or D&D, Hasbro would sell. I suspect the problem there is it's hard for a willing buy and willing seller to arrive at an agreement for a product with such a glorious past and bleak future. Other than the name, D&D is no longer unique and has lots of competition. Not a good thing for anyone looking to start a business. |
February 25, 2014 - 4:26pm | According to internet legend and a few articles written by former WotC/Hasbro employees, Hasbro's only interest in WotC was its Magic collectible card game product line. It never ceases to amaze me how the card market is still going so strong. More so considering how the manufacturers of "collectible cards" wrote the book for screwing the customers several decades ago. I mean when they purposely prodcuce a product so that when you buy a full case and there's still not a chance in hell at completing one full set due to the intentional shorter production of the "valuable" or "powerful" cards...why do people continue buying into such a scam year after year? |
February 25, 2014 - 5:00pm | My kids don't buy them to collect all the cards, just to play the game. The thrill for them is just getting new cards and trying to make their decks more powerful. They've never been interested in collecting complete sets of any edition. They've played Pokemon, Yu-gi-oh, and have now settled on to Magic. Heck, my wife even likes playing Magic. She actually played it first, as a computer game decades ago, before we ever even bought any cards. I guess they keep going because it's fun to play. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 February 25, 2014 - 6:03pm | As to module Animux seems to have indicated the original modules formated as an interactive possibly choose your path sort of thing and the license Tom obtained bars us from publishing modules that we write even if we dont make a dime. I was just focused on the commonality of both of those rejections. It would seem that both rejections stem from a single point of origin and I'm wondering what that might be. For the life of me I cant imagine what it is. This is what I was asking earlier in the thread. Both magazines have published fan-created adventures. I understand that you can't republish any of the classic adventures for Star Frontiers but what in this case is an example of a module not published by TSR? |
February 25, 2014 - 6:33pm | @Blankbeard FE is licensed to produce fan material but barred from producing modules. An adventure is not the same thing as a module. A module is a self contained product. If things are short we publish them as and encounter but if they are long we publish them as a serialized adventure with 1,2 &3 instalments. It doesn't violate our license. Bill obtained a license to produce the SFman and to put out digitally remastered version of the rules and existing modules. Another fan site has a license to publish scans of the original material. It sometimes seems to be all over the map. almost have to wonder if WotC feels compelled to make each license different from the other? Perhaps they are so use to commerical licensing and making sure that licenses dont overlap. Perhaps the module prohibition is linked to some other commercial license where the holders can produce modules and the prohibition on the fan licenses is about protecting themselves from being sued? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 25, 2014 - 8:47pm | My kids don't buy them to collect all the cards, just to play the game. The thrill for them is just getting new cards and trying to make their decks more powerful. They've never been interested in collecting complete sets of any edition.
I guess they keep going because it's fun to play. I get that end of it. The thing is, I was working in a comic book store back in the mid 90s when Magic: the Gathering was first released. The shop owner reluctantly started carrying it, not so much for the collectibility of the cards but because there was such a demand for it. Eventually he got a "price guide" for the cards, and then he began experimenting with the individual packs. As was expected --- the card market scams being what they were then and still are today --- the worthless 5¢ cards were plentiful at 2-3 per pack of 8 or 10 or whatever it was...meanwhile the big $90 card didn't turn up once in a full case of opened cards. He didn't even get the $75 or $60 cards out of a case (20 boxes). He managed a $45 card and a pair of $30 cards and that was the first and last time he opened them to sell individually. After a couple years he never recovered the cost of that case despite all the demand...he was able to sell unopened packs for the simple "thrill of the chase" but once he sold those few premium cards he pretty much ate the rest. Sure, he was able to piece-meal some of those opened cards as palyers were able to stack their decks with minor power cards but the fact is that this very same trend exists in any other collectible card set --- be it sports cards, comic cards, game cards, whatever cards. And then I was foolish enough to try Marvel's Overpower game. 5 boxes later (1/4 case) I was able to assemble two palyable decks in order to try a game at home. At $20/box the only other time I spent that much on a game was at the casinos. Finally, I'll let y'all in on a secret how the dealers pick out the premium cards (holograms etc). The holographic cards have a metallic content to them, and they are readily detectable with an X-ray machine. And for those that don't have access to such equipment, the wax packs could be easily opened and resealed with a steam iron. So take a guess at what your chances are at finding good cards when buying the packs individually. Like I said, it's a corrupt market from the top to bottom. Always has been, always will be. |
September 24, 2014 - 6:38am | I think this article sheds some light on why WoTC is unwilling to give permission for my request and why fan written modules are possibly a common factor: http://www.skotos.net/articles/TTnT_/TTnT_209.phtml Third party products have been a legal hassle for the duration of D&D presence in the RPG market. Maybe their response would be different if I modify my request to only include the old out of print (tsr published) material and exclude all fan contributed modules/stories? |
 September 24, 2014 - 6:50am | [C]opyright infringement is basing your work on someone else’s creative expression. Rules are not creative expression. Also, it is not “based” on their rules. It happens to “work with” their rules. SHould every programmer that writes a program that works with a computer have to pay the owner of the OS it runs on? I think not. I could be wrong, but fortunately, the US and International copyright laws agree with me. |
September 24, 2014 - 7:28am | I suppose, based on the example from the article (Kingdoms of Kalamar), it's possible that fan work could potentially be published online (for profit or not) as long as that "compatible with" or "to be used with" caveat was added to ensure the new stuff was not confused with the copyrighted and trademarked products owned by WoTC. However, it's also possible that could end up a contest in court which I'm not interested in dealing with since I have a no-profit 'for the fans' project in mind. Edit: I don't want to create a competing product of any sort. I just want to revive interest in the Star Frontiers game and enable more people to enjoy SF online. |
September 24, 2014 - 11:37am | One option is to make the fan base material compatible with a SF clone. For example, "Legends & Lore" is a clone of the Moldvay/Cook D&D basic & expert rules. There are enough differences in that rule book to dodge the copyright bullet (mostly in the way of equipment and pricing, the mechanics have been redefined but stil work the same), but it is still very much the same game. |
September 24, 2014 - 12:01pm | Yeah but it wouldn't really be 'SF'. You know? There are all sorts of options for publishing new ideas, and even new RPGs. I could create something new if I was inclined to put the work into it (and sometimes consider that too). It's just that I like this out-of-print game in particular because when I was a kid I enjoyed it. SF stuck with me. Hell, I've got just about all of the original game materials in great condition. I won't break the books out because the 'community' of SF gamers isn't a group of neighbor kids anymore. That community found a niche on the internet where, unfortunately, the potential for reviving the game is somewhat limited due to copyright. |
September 24, 2014 - 12:18pm |  I want to webify this stuff so it can be played in a browser. |
September 24, 2014 - 1:33pm | I'm pretty sure we'll all survive without the one in the upper right.  |
September 24, 2014 - 4:56pm | I think browser based games of the Endless quest books is a great idea. In all probability you could just follow the book though perhaps digitally remaster it and host it on the SFman site under the SFman's fan license. As to browser based versions of say Crash on Volturnus then I would say that it should broadly follow the outline of the module but have some divergence- modules like the Volturnus series are so well known that you should change them up some. This project might help with that: http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/3557 I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
September 24, 2014 - 6:10pm | I want to make a cognizant comment on this but my brain is too fried at the moment. The short answer is that you can probably find a way to do it as long as it's a free resource. That assessment is based on all the interactions I've had with them. And I want to help make it happen if possible. I'll try to talk with you via e-mail when I'm a little more coherent. But the bottom line is don't give up hope. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
September 24, 2014 - 8:56pm | I think browser based games of the Endless quest books is a great idea. In all probability you could just follow the book though perhaps digitally remaster it and host it on the SFman site under the SFman's fan license. As to browser based versions of say Crash on Volturnus then I would say that it should broadly follow the outline of the module but have some divergence- modules like the Volturnus series are so well known that you should change them up some. This project might help with that: http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/3557 There were two options for these examples I had in mind. One being a set of 'easy' starter adventures from the basic rule books and adapted from the endless quest books. That'd be how new users on the website learned how it worked. They'd login, go through a character creation process (and/or choose from some random pre-generated charcters) and then run through a series of choices to make progress -- maybe throw in some semi-automated encounters/fights. The other, an 'open world' Volturnus map to explore and two types of encounters -- those with choices similar to the starter adventures, and those with dice rolls (random number generated)/combat. login and character creation/choosing all the same. Maybe even keep the same characters from one adventure to the next and build up XP, credits, equipment, etc. Multiple difficulty levels, achievements to unlock, secret stuff to discover, etc. The scary version would have included options for people to use the site to create new modules and then share their scenarios with a site community. Thinking about scrapping that part to see if WoTC would be OK with simply rehashing the original material. |
September 24, 2014 - 9:09pm | I've posted this in another thread but here is an example of what it could look like. I've never progressed beyond this proof because WoTC denied my requests to actually build it. |
September 25, 2014 - 12:42am | I've posted this in another thread but here is an example of what it could look like. I've never progressed beyond this proof because WoTC denied my requests to actually build it. Replace their copyrighted artwork with fanbase artwork and resubmit it. |
