 August 29, 2013 - 3:45pm | Been thinking about starships. What is the "average" spaceship hull size in the Frontier? What is the distribution? Are there lots of little ships and only a few really big ones? Are most of the ships in the mid range? Is it evenly distributed? Obviously there have to be a lot of little HS 1-5 shuttle types ships that get things in and out of orbit. But what about the other ships? Chime off on your suggestions. I've written a simulation of the Starship Construction Centers based on the rules for ship build and maintenance time. It's interesting to see the numbers that come out. But one of the inputs needed is what sizes of ships are being requested to be built. That's what's got me thinking about this. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 August 29, 2013 - 7:23pm | What were the hull size ranges of the two freighter on the back side of the campaign map included in Khs? I'm betting these two freighters represent a lot of the carrying trade. My gut reaction without considering the KHs freighters at all is that after the HS1-5 ships the next largest number will be the low end of the hulls with the size B engines. Then cut that number in half and you have the high end of the B engines. I think the hulls with size C engines would be a low number but there would be some notable, famous ones- the Space Fleet Battle ships, Trans Travel's flag ship which would be at least HS18 if not HS20. A massive space liner called the Titan, the saurian ark ships- though they are not moving around at all. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 29, 2013 - 7:42pm | So I played around a bit with the numbers given for the hull sizes of the various ships in the campaign book. I took the Spacefleet and militia ships from the KH game then set up distributions that peaked in the middle for all the various ship types. Once I had that I weighted the categories (spaceliner, freighter, science ship, ag ship, etc) by what I felt was a reasonable relative number. Then I binned them all up and it turned out to be a fairly even distribution centered on HS 10 and falling off toward the edges. With a spike at HS 3 for all the assault scouts and exploration ships. More ideas to come as I play with it further. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
August 29, 2013 - 8:36pm | RE: KHs egg shape freighters- they only portrayed two engines which would mean HS7-9 though there might be four engines and they just didn't draw in the ones that are 90 degrees from the ones in the scan below. Still these ships are small. Would it be possible to say the small freighter is actually a HS 4-5 with two ion engines (that does not agree with numbers in the book) and the large freighter is HS7-9? Or... the small freighter is HS 7 while the large one is HS9. what's in a hull size though I bet the small freighter can carry just as much as the large if they both have size B engines- you just attach more containers. I'm not thinking that the designation of large or small really affects HS. Perhaps one is just cheaper with a -25% to cost of hull. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 August 30, 2013 - 12:48am | @TerlObar, Even though you were able to make a slightly bi-modal bell curve distribution I would say that the low end ships would still by higher than the high end ships. there are going to be a lot of system ships that just get overlooked by the KH battles and modules. A lot of cargo and mining vessels working asteroids and oort cloud material. Environmentally it is safer and cleaner to do your strip mining off planet.  -iggy |
 August 30, 2013 - 3:50am | A big thing to consider when trying to average-out hull size, is that civilian ships would greatly outnumber military ships, and some ships are more common then others. For example, Research and Mining Ships are that common, while Freighters are the most prevalent type of ship. |
August 30, 2013 - 6:18am | I definitely took into account the relative numbers of ships. The UPF + militia ships were less than 10% of the total I used to build the distribution, just over half were freighers and about a quarter were passenger ships. (I have some thoughts on that as well). The science vessels, ag ships, mining ships, etc made up the rest. I ignored the small system ships for the most part. Since I'm looking at the number of ships that the Frontier's SCC's can support, I'm assuming that these small ships can be serviced ground side or otherwise outside of the SCC. The distribution wasn't really bi-modal or bell-curved in the end. It ramped up to a peak at HS 10 and then ramped down to 20 with a spike at HS 3. Of course that's just one possibility, which is why I'm looking for ideas. I've run 3 sets of sims so far. The first set just was a look at what the number of ships would be if all ships were of a given hull size (i.e. all Frontier ships were HS 5). The other thing I've been varying is the number of years between maintenance (i.e. 1-5 years) This affects how long they stay in dock for repairs. The second set of sims were with a flat ship size distribution i.e. equal chance of having any given hull size ship. The final one (which ran overnight last night and I haven't looked at yet) uses a distribution similar to the one I just described. I'm going to try one that is more weighted toward smaller ships as well, although from all the sims I've run so far, I think I know roughly how the answers will come out. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
August 30, 2013 - 11:25am | I think science ships are exceedingly rare, but mining and ag ships have something to do and money to make so I think there numbers are being down played. I think it might be safe to assume that every system with more than outpost levels of habitation and an asteroid belt or kupier belt will have mining ships strip mining the resources. any kind of a belt like in White Light system and there could easily be more than 20 mining ships. Ag ships probably out number science ships but not mining ships. Its infinetly easier to grow crops on planet than in space so the demand for ag ships is probably based on circumstances or that certain luxury crops are grown on ag ship or they were deployed to support an outpost or new colony. Adventure hook: deliver food, mail, and other supplies to an outpost in a hostile environment. Ag ship is atomic powered rather than ion so that it can easily refuel itself at destination. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 August 31, 2013 - 3:22am | The big ships (HS:16+) are going to be rare. They're expensive, they require expensive drives (and a lot of them), and require large crews to maintain them. It's tough for a business to turn a profit with them that can't be done more efficiently with two smaller vessels. The smaller craft can be made overabundant with a little creativity, for example in my game I have "light freighters" that are based on size 3 & 4 hulls that are utilized for chartered one system hops with smaller loads that full sized freighters deem to be unprofitable. I also have size 1-3 "personal transports" that are the equivilent of space going recreational vehicles: basic space transport for the family to enjoy an outing (you could also look at the HS:1 system ship as the equivilent of a modern Cessna). Then you can throw in "couriers" or the equivlent of UPS...a network of small craft that transport parcels across the Frontier. All of this can serve to significantly shift the bell curve toward the HS:1-4 end. |
 August 31, 2013 - 11:25pm | Large freighters are more efficient than small ones and therefore more cost effective, assuming there is enough cargo needing hauled to fill the cargo hold to capacity within a reasonable period of time. It requires the same size crew whether the ship is hauling 1 ton of goods or 1billion tons. It also should be more fuel efficient per ton. |
September 1, 2013 - 4:51am | Large freighters are more efficient than small ones and therefore more cost effective, assuming there is enough cargo needing hauled to fill the cargo hold to capacity within a reasonable period of time. It requires the same size crew whether the ship is hauling 1 ton of goods or 1billion tons. It also should be more fuel efficient per ton. This is true but can they fill a cargo hold in a timely manner? Perhaps they can since we are dealing with world economies and mega corps. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
September 1, 2013 - 6:34am | Freighters aren't the only class of ships for HS:16-20. Even though I have some rules detailing deadnaught civilian ships that are HS:20 all the way up to 50, there really isn't a lot to be said for these overgrown barges that handle almost as well as intoxicated Volturnian Rollers stumbling across a frozen pond. Simply put, and sticking with canon, the price on those 8 atomic C drives alone (750K each!!!) will afford you a HS:10 ship and spit back some decent change. And the cost of the rest of that ship will afford you the second HS:10 ship...both of which will move their loads at a faster rate (ADF:3 versus 2). Meanwhile the dreadnaught can't even get out of its own way. The big boat burns 80K worth of fuel per jump versus 30K for a ship half that size (three B drives per canon). You bet your bippy the dreadnaught captain is counting his beans to ensure any load will be profitable, and not every load will be. He'll be beating the docks to fill the rest of his hold while the smaller boats are delivering theirs. The only advantage the big dreadnaught has wil be fewer overhauls along the way, it can hop from one end of the Frontier to the other without stopping. But with astrogator jump time, overhauls can easily be accomplished on the fly --- I ran a PbP game (Terl remembers this) where the astrogation team would compete against the engineering team between jumps, whoever finished last bought drinks for the other team. Even with my additional astrogators/time reduction rules, the engineering team didn't pay up very often. The dreadnaught certainly won't be outrunning any pirate vessels, at least with the mid sized B-drive craft it's a dead even match with anything but smaller craft. One upside I can think of: pirates won't be able to fully loot a dreadnaught. They'll be using smaller freighters at best and will only be able to carry away a fraction of the load...hoping the rest will still be in the drifting hulk if they come back. They certainly won't be flying it back, what with a lack of lv-6 pilots. Fat lot of good that will be for the dead crew though, 5-6 units of free cargo is still worth the fight for a pirate. Speaking of which...the lv-6 pilot needed to helm such a beast makes 300Cr/day next to 225 a day for the easier to find lv-4 on the HS:10 boat. And you'd better treat that dreadnaught pilot well when he's not working, or he'll find another barge to helm...after all he's about as common as an oasis in the Volturnian desert. Upgun and armor that beast, and it might be worth the cost to operate. But now we're talking warships...a whole 'nuther can of worms. |
 September 1, 2013 - 1:03pm | Speaking of large frieghters, since only the smallest hulls are capable of landing on a planet any large frieghter must be loaded and unloaded in space. This brings up some interesting points. If it is made on planet then it has to be brought up to orbit. You can have all kinds of fun with this. Do the frieghters with cargo modules just detach the ones they brought and pick up already loaded ones? Considering the EVA time to load/unload how good is this service and are their unions? What kind of shuttles do they use to bring up the merchandise? Do they store it in space or on ground and bring it up on demand? Why do frieghters even need to go to planets? Seriously why would a frieght company waste the time to bring a star capable vessel to a planet when they have to bring the stuff off world anyway and then bring it to a station much closer to the jump point or at least the distance needed to get up to speed to the jump point so maximum efficiency can be made in turn around times. Do large frieghters dock or just sit in orbit. Dramune Run and White Light strongly suggest docking but does that apply everywhere? White Light gives good information on customs in that system with the CRM doing the job but what about other systems and what is Clarion's back up when Spacefleet shows up and takes all their Assault Scouts? Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 September 1, 2013 - 5:32pm | I'm guessin' that the majority of exploration or mining-type ships must fall in the HS 5 or 6 size...at least that's what's going through my head. HS 3 must be pretty prevalent, however, as someone looking to make a credit or two would want to do it with a small crew to save some coin... |
September 1, 2013 - 6:53pm | Yeah, I think a good exploration ship would be HS 5-6. Anything smaller and you just don't have the volume for the long term life support, supplies, labs, probes, etc you'd need. Even the HS Elanor Moraes had to pull along a second landing module (effectively making it HS 4) to fit in the minimum stuff needed. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
September 2, 2013 - 3:40am | If you look at the cross sections of the large and small freighter in KHs there isnt that big of a change in actuall hull size; most of those ships two ships mass is in their cargo boom when cargo containers are attached. I think you probably could mass produce those ships on planet- minus the ion engines and launch them with chemical engines attached which would be easily swapped out (for ion) in orbit especially for a planet lacking a proper space station and orbital infrastructure. so if HS is a fuction of size what is the HS of one of these freighters running naked with no cargo? Could they have a variable hull size depending on the ammount of cargo containers locked on? There would be an upper limit for cargo based on the number of engines and a game master might enforce a further limit on cargo due to past damage to the cargo boom until the ship can put into a SCC for an over haul.  I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
September 2, 2013 - 10:40am | Did some checking the ship Dark Shadow, used the small freighter deck plan, it was HS5 and its total cargo was five crates, each with one robot inside and smuggled weapons hidden in the robots. So the small freighter is HS5. The cargo is clearly too small to justify the cost of operating a ship but perhaps that is a clue as to the fact that something is being smuggled. But could hand weapons are that valuable? Or is the freighter's crew sympathizers with the Liberation Party which is the end user of the weapons?
So if the small freighter deck plans is a HS5 what HS do we want to assaign to the larger freighter? Edit: There are two types of freighter in the Frontier; those that attach cargo containers to a boom and those with internal cargo holds. I would suppose the cargo boom style is more plentiful in the frontier since its probably easiest to build. It should be fairly obvious that the KHs freighters were influenced by the opening credits of Battlestar Galactica from 1980. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
September 2, 2013 - 3:58pm | Do large frieghters dock or just sit in orbit. Dramune Run and White Light strongly suggest docking but does that apply everywhere?
That all depends on the available space station size. Larger stations can accomodate larger ships, so the aforementioned dreadnaught freighter needs a size 5 or 6 station or it has no choice but to park in orbit. Also noteworthy, as mentioned in Dramune Run, is prepaid docking leases. If the leasing ship isn't there the station can utilize that space for any and every craft that shows up, but as soon as the leasing ship arrives in system the space must be cleared out for it. So if that dreadnaught arrives at majora station and there happens to be 20 "hull spaces" worth of docking space available, it can be bumped in favor of the Gullwind's six leased hull spaces (or am I thinking of the SCC rule here? Gotta look that up...either way the dreadnaught can still be kicked in favor of prepaid berthing). Whether the ship docks or parks in orbit, any available freight WILL be on the station (or surface, if lacking a station). Either way it needs a means of transporting the cargo, be it docking at the station or shuttles to ferry the load back and forth. |
September 2, 2013 - 5:35pm | From a real-Physics perspective, only small ships will dock. The larger ones will unload via shuttles. In order to get a hole big enough to fly a HS 20 ship (100m diameter) into it, you start having microgravity issues on the outer surface of the hub where the ships dock. And really, it needs to be at least 300m in diameter so you can have those HS 20 ships fly in and then move to the side. At that point you have about 0.1 gee in the docking area to the side of the ships. Very inconvienient. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
September 3, 2013 - 3:32am | A dreadnaught sized frieghter would need to be owned by a Megacorp or Planetary government. Simply because something that big and expensive would need a group with the capital to provide purchase and upkeep and have the necessary contacts to provide cargoes for it. That being said such a ship would not be going to tiny outpost worlds but to established planets with an established route. So would not the owning group provide a docking port for the large frieghter at each of its destinations? Consider that this kind of ship would not be dropping off random cargoes but be taking things such as raw materials from one place and dropping off finish products at the return. Thinking something like a Walmart distribution center or in our case a Pan-Galactic Corporation holding center in space would be the destination for a dreadnaught freighter. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
September 3, 2013 - 4:39am | From a real-Physics perspective, only small ships will dock. The larger ones will unload via shuttles. In order to get a hole big enough to fly a HS 20 ship (100m diameter) into it, you start having microgravity issues on the outer surface of the hub where the ships dock. And really, it needs to be at least 300m in diameter so you can have those HS 20 ships fly in and then move to the side. At that point you have about 0.1 gee in the docking area to the side of the ships. Very inconvienient.
Which isn't too far off from the docking gravity description outlined in Dramune Run (which IIRC was 0.5g?). And that station is definitely a size 6 wheel based on the heavy traffic descriptions in the two modules, so it's safe to presume it could handle such vessels...physics permitting that is. |
September 3, 2013 - 4:51am | A dreadnaught sized frieghter would need to be owned by a Megacorp or Planetary government that isn't content with the size of their genetalia.
 Seriously though, even a government or mega corp is going to look at the cost benefits of two HS:10 ships versus one HS:20 and realize they're financially better off with the smaller pair. But you're right about one thing, the bigger boat is going to need a guaranteed profit margin to operate, and you're just not going to see that as an independant freighter captain who makes a living from beating the docks. The HS:20 ships are more of a public display than anything: just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. Historically this rings true: the engineers of the Titanic proudly proclaimed that even God Himself could not sink that ship. The Titanic was a display of pride on behalf of White Star Line and they swallowed heir pride by not providing sufficient life boats for the vessel with the same mentality. Still, there's no doubt that there's a certain degree of mystique in having such vessels in your game. |
September 3, 2013 - 5:57am | A dreadnaught sized frieghter would need to be owned by a Megacorp or Planetary government that isn't content with the size of their genetalia.
The HS:20 ships are more of a public display than anything: just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.   |
 September 3, 2013 - 7:49am | Seriously though, even a government or mega corp is going to look at the cost benefits of two HS:10 ships versus one HS:20 and realize they're financially better off with the smaller pair. But you're right about one thing, the bigger boat is going to need a guaranteed profit margin to operate, and you're just not going to see that as an independant freighter captain who makes a living from beating the docks.
I agree with this, but I believe it only works out this way because of the cargo unit system in KH. In reality, the "Wal Mart" system mentioned would be pretty profitble between more developed worlds if the cargo ships held what they really could hold rather than the arbitrary cargo units. |
September 3, 2013 - 10:06am | [I agree with this, but I believe it only works out this way because of the cargo unit system in KH. In reality, the "Wal Mart" system mentioned would be pretty profitble between more developed worlds if the cargo ships held what they really could hold rather than the arbitrary cargo units. Definitely, if your HS 20 superfreighter, which is more than 15 times the size of a HS 10 freighter, carried 15 times as much cargo instead of only twice as much, you'd build a single HS 20 ship over 15 HS 10 ships any day if you had the volume of goods to move. The larger ship would be much more cost effective. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
September 3, 2013 - 2:27pm | [I agree with this, but I believe it only works out this way because of the cargo unit system in KH. In reality, the "Wal Mart" system mentioned would be pretty profitble between more developed worlds if the cargo ships held what they really could hold rather than the arbitrary cargo units. Definitely, if your HS 20 superfreighter, which is more than 15 times the size of a HS 10 freighter, carried 15 times as much cargo instead of only twice as much, you'd build a single HS 20 ship over 15 HS 10 ships any day if you had the volume of goods to move. The larger ship would be much more cost effective. This is one of the things I'm considering porting form SWON as well. I've looked through their merchant campaign book, and they have costs per ton in there, instead of CUs. The only reason I haven't already pulled the trigger is because the game I'm running is not using it this minute... |
September 3, 2013 - 8:00pm | I'm sticking to canon for the discussion*...but I fully agree that if proportions were taken into consideration that it would make a significant difference for the dreadnaught (or any other craft that was bigger than another craft for that matter). * and only mentioned a house rule once just to clarfify a point that astrogation still takes a long time |
 September 17, 2013 - 10:10am | On the map, it says under the name the hull size. Small Freighter = 5 and Large Freighter = 12. |
 November 8, 2013 - 1:54pm | Lol @ malcadon's post and zentrati ship I submit to this discussion that is the UPF uses frigates (HS 5) to police space then most ships would not be bigger or much bigger than that. Granted civie ships are far less effective than military ships but I think this is an indicator that the distribution would be much lower on the scale. I also get the impression that the UPF tends to build bigger and bigger ships. That the large fleet of frigates is their old fleet. ----------------------------------------------- |
November 8, 2013 - 3:32pm | I submit to this discussion that is the UPF uses frigates (HS 5) to
police space then most ships would not be bigger or much bigger than
that. Granted civie ships are far less effective than military ships but
I think this is an indicator that the distribution would be much lower
on the scale. Those are some good points. I think it's probably true as well and most of the newer ships are the Light Cruisers as they are building bigger ships to match the increased hull sizes of the civilian ships. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 8, 2013 - 5:28pm | [/quote] Those are some good points. I think it's probably true as well and most of the newer ships are the Light Cruisers as they are building bigger ships to match the increased hull sizes of the civilian ships. [/quote] This would be backwards to how the United States built its airfleet. Many of the larger airplane designs started as military bombers, which require the ability to carry huge payloads, and then the technology and designs were allowed into the civilian markets. Currently we are seeing this as drone technology started as remote recon and bombers and we are now seeing civilian models which do security, report the news and fight forest fires. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
