 January 12, 2013 - 6:04am | This time last year I was on the level of drawing that was a little bit
above stick figures and stymied that I could not beg borrow or steal
enough art for my needs in fan magazine publishing. Over 2012 I threw
myself into drawing and ressurrected 25 year old skills that had been
lost hopefully 2013 will be a year of even better improvement. This discussion is not just for me as there is a handful of artist in the community producing stuff- Malcadon has a very nice gallery of sketchs (admittedly geared toward gama world) at deviantart.com , AZ_gamer is the resident cgi artist here producing so much in that mediu, and others. I thought that it would be nice to talk about what we'd like to see come out in 2013 of Star Frontiers art or Star Frontiers-ish art. 1.) I recently saw a post (I dont think it was on this site) criticizing the fact that a lot of sci-fi art these days shows people in tactical gear carrying modern looking assault rifles. I'm not surprised that this would be a trend as a drawing reference helps and its not hard to find these subjects to work from. How does the community feel about this? Do we prefer stuff with a more golden age of sci fi look or is it ok if it has a more Gritty modernist look? 2.) In another thread someone asked a question that caused an image to pop into my head and I had to draw it.  This one is equal parts sexy, creepy, and disturbing IMO and I drew it! So how do we feel about art with a sexy subject? Yay, Nay or dont care? I suppose this question should be actually be separated into three questions- Sexy, creepy and disturbing should all be answered separately. 3. New avatar pics? would we like new avatar pics for this site? I suppose most of us have settled on an avatar pic and are not likely to change it so this is about new members, of which a large portion dont bother with getting an avatar (though many that actually post do). Would a host of new pictures of the core four be a good thing to add to the available avatars? 4. This question is separate from #3; character portraits? would a library of character portraits be a valued addition to game play? To be able to add a character portrait to your character sheet? Pose a question if you think of one. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 14, 2013 - 10:37pm | That poor poor bastard.  Yeah, that poor jumpsuit!  |
January 14, 2013 - 10:49pm | That poor poor bastard. Yeah, that poor jumpsuit! My poor eyes! You dont know how many pictures of heavy set nude models I had to look at till I found a picture for photo reference. Let's just say that I'm am not into girls with too much junk in the trunk. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 15, 2013 - 1:33am | Personally, I would have stuck with a shapely figure, then to subject myself to something I'm not comfortable with (although, I have no real issue with nudity - regardless of shape and gender - as I grew-up seeing it). Regardless, good work for slaving yourself for the sake of art (and comedy  )! |
January 15, 2013 - 5:21am | What is it that the Japanese say, "Nudity is something that is often seen but seldom looked at." Truth be told I do look at a lot of nudity these days in the pursuit of understanding anatomy. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 15, 2013 - 10:19am | While I haven't belted out anything recently, I gathered some older stuff from the late 90s and early oughts I had loaded on my PC. I'll address some of the points made here, and keep in mind all of this stuff predates this discussion by 7-15 years. To dispel the "ethnic cleansing" theory, here is a yazirian (Mrak-a-Geego from the Omicron mini-adventure) that I based loosely on "African heritage":  While not the greatest scan in terms of color, Jack "Shotgun" Walker is based on John Romita Jr's afro-American character from the Punisher War Zone comic "Shotgun" -- he's pretty much a direct plagarism with a first name change (John Walker, as in the booze) and I lopped of his dredd locks:   A vrusk among others (including another "black yazirian" and yes...a chick w/ 4 arms), rendered to scale:  One more seated:  Obligatory Yazirians with goggles:    Boot-less vrusk:    ...and one with the aforementioned "mitten/glove boots"  Last but not least, sexy service robot...  ...and something in the vernacular of chainmail bikini, a half human/half yaz temptress:  |
January 15, 2013 - 10:25am | @ Shadow: I like the Randy Savage looking figure with two automatic weapons I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 15, 2013 - 12:07pm | @ Shadow: I like the Randy Savage looking figure with two automatic weapons
If you're talking about the full color pic below the crappy color pic, that is the original from JR Jr that I palgarized into SF. It was merely a comparison pic...I have a terrible sense of color and half the time I ruin my work when I try to make it beyond black & white line art. |
January 15, 2013 - 1:20pm | @ Shadow: I like the Randy Savage looking figure with two automatic weapons
If you're talking about the full color pic below the crappy color pic, that is the original from JR Jr that I palgarized into SF. It was merely a comparison pic...I have a terrible sense of color and half the time I ruin my work when I try to make it beyond black & white line art. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 15, 2013 - 6:51pm | All looking pretty good, think you have captured many of the points under discussion even before we discussed them. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 15, 2013 - 7:38pm | Thanks Rat. And just to be fair, here's the aforementioned sathar botch I rendered with humanoid appendages instead of tentacles:  What can I say, I got caught up in drawing comics the Marvel way...next time I render a sathar I'll do the limbs right but that was my first and only attempt thus far. Oh yeah, I forgot my drals. Partially clothed, but not neck-to-toe:   One of these days I'll render a more friendly dralasite.  And, what the hay...one of each from Zeb's races:    Yeah you have to scan it once its done in B/W before going to color
Yep, I try to do that, but sometimes laziness sets in or you absolutley positively must get it done right (bleep)ing now. |
 January 18, 2013 - 9:11pm | You know, I've done a CGI image or two as well. Two covers of SFMan, for instance. Sathar walk with their lower limbs on the ground. Their hydrostatic bodies don't have muscles like a snake would, and all animals that use hydrostatic pressure to move tend to be floppy, flimsy creatures, so I'd suggest they are going to need all the help they can get to move around. |
 January 22, 2013 - 11:28am | Trying to make a sathar model and I've pondered this a bit. Would more snake like movement or a sort of waddle combo really not be an option for them? I understand that sathar may not have bones or muscles per se, but would it really mean that they do not have a more refined version of hydrostatics? By that I mean having many smaller inflatable sacks instead of just the large ones like in our earthworms. I figure finer control would be just about required for many things involving tools, controls, etc... At least I've been picturing more of a slithering waddle for movement instead of a ripple flop. |
 January 22, 2013 - 12:48pm | Well the AD description says "A Sathar moves by slithering across the ground with the first meter of its body raised. They can also coil like a snake, raising 1.5 meters of their bodies from the ground" It also says that the tentacles are attached 1m below the head so it would seem to move with at least the "hand" tentacles and head raised up, possibly using the padded "feet" tentacles to help propel it and/or steer. So I've always imagined them moving snake-like across the ground using the back 2-3 meters of their bodies for propulsion like a snake does but also using the lower stronger tentacles to help propel (push/pull) them along and also to provide some of the steering. Then when they want to "stand", they coil up and use the stronger lower tentacles either to lift heavy loads or as support. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
January 22, 2013 - 2:28pm | One thing that always looked odd to me in the art in the saurian piece, even though its the best "clothed" sathar I've found, is how short their tails seem to be. Beyond the autopsy piece in AD, I'm not sure if anyone has captured them well. |
January 22, 2013 - 3:41pm | I just found this one on the net, and aside from what I see as too short of a neck I think the rest is rendered perfrectly... |
 January 22, 2013 - 3:46pm | They are worms, and worms come in all manner of lengths. Also remember that though 1.5 m of their bodies are upright, 2 m of their bodies slither, so that should be enough to maintain balance. They definitely have quite a bit of tail behind them. (And I'm not referring to their butt size.) View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
January 22, 2013 - 5:14pm | I just found this one on the net, and aside from what I see as too short of a neck I think the rest is rendered perfrectly...
Oh now that is a nice one. I need to add that to the wall for the model. Tripod is being mean so here is a more viewable link.  |
January 22, 2013 - 6:14pm | Also remember that though 1.5 m of their bodies are upright, 2 m of their bodies slither, so that should be enough to maintain balance.
Per the description in AD, the limbs are "about 1 meter below the head". So if they slither along with 2m of their overall 3.5m length on the ground, then it goes without saying that they're dragging their limbs while slithering because their "shoulders" are a mere half meter above the ground compared to the 1m and 1.2m lengths of the tentacles. In other words, think of a human buried in a hole that is elbow-deep...with your arms out of the hole you simply won't have a full range of motion. To me, this means for full use of those limbs they need to rise up further, as that 1.5m coiled/upright height isn't sufficient for the full use of a quartet of 1+meter long tentacles, as at least half of that length will be interfering with the ground. Hence, the larger pair is utilized in the "heavy lifting" manner as support for a taller stance to enable full use of their appendages...perhaps even to the point of "walking" if needed. |
January 22, 2013 - 6:31pm | Thanks, Shadow Shack. That's mine. It's in issue #12, p.35, of the Star Frontiersman. Though I think the tail should be longer still and the left shoulder is wrong. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
January 22, 2013 - 6:28pm | As for range of motion, they're tentacles. They have full range of motion at all times. They don't have bones or elbows and are solid muscle, so simply twist or bend at any point along the tentacle. The same goes for the Sathar's body. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
January 23, 2013 - 11:04am | They don't have bones or elbows and are solid muscle, so simply twist or bend at any point along the tentacle.
Damn, I keep missing that part.  As for your rendering, I don't see an issue with the shoulder. The one on the right side (aka the sather's left) is partially blocked by the body, and there's a line going upwards to suggest that it connects at a higher point that matches the one we do see. In fact the only issue I see on the shoulder is the right/sather's left is proportionally larger than the left/sather's right. But considering the alien nature there really isn't a "right" way here so you can get away with minor issues like that...perhaps he simply has more hydrostatic fluid pumped into that shoulder. How's that for an official Marvel No-Prize? |
 January 25, 2013 - 11:11am | This was a drawing that I had done about 5 years ago for SFman. I think an edited version ended up in print. While this is not the type of illustration I normally would do, it was an image that popped into my head, and I put it onto paper. For me, it does have an uncomfortable, creepy feel to it... ) I really was not going for a "naughty tentacles" thing... but that is how it came out. I have not submitted anything else like it since, and do not intend to in the future. Being a Christian, illustrating can pose some very "interesting" moral/ethical challenges for me... and here's where I become a hypocrite... when I was younger, some of the "racy" illustrations in the old TSR D&D/AD&D books and modules were captivating for me. Yikes! But it is only fantasy, right? Maybe those drawings should not have been allowed in books where impressionable 13 year olds would see them? Normally, I would not comment about this stuff, because my hands are dirty, too... but really, does this kind of thing need to be included in Star Frontiers? I think role-playing is a great way for folks to interact, and relate to each other. It is about fun, right? There are also a lot of wonderful things that we can teach our kids (and each other) about team work, honor, sacrifice, and heroism. Do we really need to include creepy/sexy fetishes, graphic sex, gore, etc? Eh, just my opinion, guys. My games and art will remain "G" and mild "PG" rated. |
January 25, 2013 - 12:10pm | As a fellow christian, aside from the "pointy things" I have no issue with that piece (I'm guessing that was the aforementioned edit?). Alien abduction is a common theme in sci-fi settings, the sathar have to get their agents somehow as not all of them are willing. |
January 25, 2013 - 12:56pm | I thought it was a great piece shell and I dont consider your hands dirty for doing it. It clearly not groping her and as shadow says the alien abduction thing is a common motiff. I would say that if you consceince bothers you about it then dont do another as "whatever is not of faith is sin" the point of this discussion is that I wanted to find out where the community mind set is concerning standards. because lets face it the interaction on this site is amongst adult males of a certain age range. and the consumers of the SFman and FE are most likely of a particular gender and age range. I think the concensus has been that violence for violence sake and blood and gore and outright nudity is crossing the line, we didn;'t discuss it but dipictions of sex are also beyond the line, I would think. I audit a lot of art on deviant art and most recently the kids pestered me to take them to the Museum of Fine Art (because they heard at Girls Scouts it was free on Martin L king day) so I see a lot of stuff that is disturbing, creepy and some that is quite sexy. I've reconciled myself to the fact that pursuing a fine art degree will mean looking at a lot of nude models and nude pictures and inadvertantly at some that I would consider porn on some level (particularly something done just to protray a womans clit or the sex act in a graphic way) I think in those cases the important thing is to recognize something for what it is and move on. Incidently my kids were surprisingly mature about the art at the MFA. I did ask if there were any exhibits that might not be good for children and was told the fashion photography exhibit was pretty graphic so we stirred clear of it. I talked with the 6 yr old and discussed nakedness and she had interesting comments and when we got in the lobby and there was a marble statue with a breast exposed i asked her for her reaction. I think we as adults worry more than we should about our kids and that they are much more capable of mature thought then we give them credit for. But that is just my opinion and I tend to be a helicopter parent. Like I said this thread was about finding out where people are at and seeing if there is a concensus of thought on where the lines should be. I'm fine with some of the racier TSR illustrations of my youth, but if I was the only one fine with that then I'd just draw amish people with ray guns. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 25, 2013 - 1:01pm | It is a beautiful piece. I recall a lot of the fantasy art from my younger days being pretty... suggestive, shall we say? Personally my take on the sathar has always had creepy involved. They have that whole "you are feeling sleepy" thing that I've always found rather disconcerting. A dash of Manchurian Candidate, or even Jason Bourne, that could be quite unsettling. |
January 25, 2013 - 3:50pm | Yep, Shadow Shack, the "pointy things" were the edits Bill made. LOL! I was so embarrassed when he e-mailed me about it, but he was very respectful about the drawing's integrity. When I made the drawing, I was kind of "testing the waters", to see how much was too much. Most of the work I have done is of the "G" or "PG" variety, however, my name does appear on a few drawings that would rate "PG-13" or "R"... mostly for violence, a few for nudity. When I said that "my hands were dirty", was more of a reference to past drawings that included nudity... nothing unsavory, portrait drawings, or life study drawings. I am not opposed to nudity in certain contexts... I believe th human body is a beautiful thing, a miracle of God's creation, and a marvel in it's design, and complexity. I love to draw the human body...(especially women!), and I find beauty in all of the races of Man... (especially asian women!), I just feel that the human body is degraded when it is depicted in ways that would not honor God. I agree with vmnjn about the Sathar being creepy... their hypnotic abilities, and use of mind control. I am a big fan of 1950's sci-fi (Heinlein is my favorite, Campbell is close behind), and with the threat of communism always around the corner, the 1950's writers loved to explore the "loss of identity/loss of self" themes (Invasion Of The Body Snatchers, Invaders From Mars, The Thing/Who Goes There) all had themes where people were "taken over", by unseen forces... I always thought that the Sathar could be a great source of fear/paranoia in a Star Frontiers game... not the "monsters from within" stuff (like The Thing), but if they used their hynosis, or even parasitic control to annihilate colonies... In an old campaign I ran, back in the late 80's, I threw a bit of a Cthulu twist into the Sathar storyline... worms from space, using their mental powers to reduce humanity to slaves, as they await the arrival of their mollusk-headed masters! Anyway, Here are a couple of commissioned drawings that I did last year...   I have been drawing since I was 3, and learned what crayons, and the living room wallpaper were for. By High School, I was in independent study, drawing from life models, and collecting tons of art instruction books, mostly on the human body. After high school, I became a firefighter-emt, and later a paramedic. I began a new pursuit of the human body, medical anatomy and physiology. after 14 1/2 years of it, I went into entertainment costuming, and designed several for local theme parks. |
 January 25, 2013 - 10:20pm | Shell, I love the Boba Fett drawing. You are a very good artist, and I appreciate your sharing your faith background a bit here. It gives a little perspective on where you come from. I agree with jedion that the pic that was in SFman was not drawn "bad" in context. But I do understand why it was edited, if we know that younger ones look at the ezine then we need to be aware of what we put in them. I have seen more suggestive and even soft porn or too much graphic violence on primetime TV then I have seen from all of the artists that have submitted to the SFman. I think in general we all do a good job of keeping it clean. And I think we all test our bounderies, even as adults in lots of things. We are here to help keep each other in check and not let any of us go too far. Jedion, you are right about the demographics for FE and SFman being middle aged males. I know there are lots of exceptions, but that is also a reality of who was targeted when the game came out. Young males from jr high to high school. Once the game went out of print, we have been the only ones to keep it alive in one shape or another. To me, it is noce to have someone outside this demographic give input and put their own twist in, more variety. I think this is a good thread and want to say thanks to all of you who create art for Star Frontiers. I can't do it, so I rely on all of you to create the pictures that will keep things alive. |
January 26, 2013 - 7:10am | Just an FYI, I found photos of a model in a vinyl body suit on deviant art for anyone looking for photo reference for doing a woman in a golden era sci fi body suit http://browse.deviantart.com/?q=jadelizzy http://lizzymeow.deviantart.com/art/Jade-Portrait-340841534 I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 27, 2013 - 5:32am | In my games, Human spacers have tight bodysuits, with a jumpsuit over that — the other races are nudists or minimalists. The jumpsuits are the coveralls from the basic AD book. When they are working, they have tights and coveralls on, and when relaxing, they just wear the tights — the tights come in a wide range of colors and patters. Although, they might have the top of the coveralls down at the waist, with the sleeves tied-up as a belt. Modesty is not an issue, as co-ed nudity with bathing, showers and swimming are normal, and casual nudity appears in all manor of media (movies, magazines, etc.), so people are just used to seeing it. The tights just serves as full-body underwear to absorb odors and perspiration, and are easier to clean in the ship's washer then coveralls. Yazirians don't sweat normally, so they wear briefs or panties. Non-spacer Humans wear more-or-less normal clothing - styles and fashion can vary between systems, subcultures and the times. The other races are not as hung-up on fashion, although Yazirians prefer simple, minimalist garments with elaborate accessories. Well this is how I present clothing in my games, and the depictions I establish (in art and game-play) reflects this. |
