 May 28, 2012 - 9:39am | So I've finally finished a first draft of an alternate system for building ships that is completely based on the mass and volume of the ship components. I've tried to make it both compatable with the old system in that it uses the same components but have also tried to make it more internally consistant and realistic as well. Major changes are to life support, engines, hull, and cargo areas. The rules are in the download section as well as a spreadsheet to accompany the rule system to take away all the tedious math. You just plug in the numbers for the systems you want and all the details are calculated. Refer to: Starship Construction Rules There are still a few things I need to work out completely such as fuel usage and number of ships that can be externally docked but for the most part the basic ideas are there. Read over it and feel free to make comments and suggestions. This system starts with the components and ends up computing things like hull size and such. It can also be done the other way, starting with a standard sized hull and then fitting everything in but I need to still write up the procedure for that. Another thing that needs to be done to compeltely make this system self consistent is to rework the freight hauling section of the KH rules to be consistent with the new definition of the cargo unit since the bigger ships will have more than just their HS in cargo units. (e.g. my HS 20 super freighter has 3600 cargo units of space.) Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 May 28, 2012 - 10:44am | Downloaded the rules and printing. I'll keep a pen handy. I'm excited to see this. -iggy |
May 28, 2012 - 11:23am | Another thought that isn't in the rules or above. I think the weapons are both underpriced and too small in the standard rules. One of the revisions I'm considering is making them slightly larger and much more (maybe 10x) expensive. With the prices as they are, there is no reason to not arm your merchant freighters. If there is a bigger cost penalty, you have to really think about it. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
May 28, 2012 - 9:27pm | I'm also considering adding a 1/2 A atomic engine as well as Class D Atomic and Ion engines for really big ships. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 May 29, 2012 - 6:15am | Instead of 1/2 A use a AA and possibly a AAA class of engine I'm assuming that this is essentially for KHs 2.0? since significant changes means it loses compatibility with the old KHs. Secondly I think that we should also consider after proofing the system adding in alternate drives that didn't appear in the rules. for example solar sails-there are 3 forms of this tech, each different from the other and would make for an economical system ship. The traditional style of sail with large surface area sails using energy from the star to push it is only useable out to the orbit of Mars with a Sol sized star but free fuel will mean it does see some use and if used in a binary system where the second star is a close companion that should boost its perfromance and increase the AU measure by which it range. Other plausible drive tech aught to be considered too to keep the game current. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 29, 2012 - 8:55am | Yes AA probably works better. 1/2 A came from model rocket engines (They have A, B, C, D, etc engines) and just popped into my head as I was writing. When you design a figher with this system, even using a low powered Class A ion engine, you end up with a ship that could have a really large ADF (~11.5) if not arbitrarily limited to 5. Thus a cheaper smaller engine would provide the same performance but cost less to fuel and maintain. Yes this was for KH 2.0 but the only real incompatability is that I've redefined the cargo unit to be a standard size. The ship sizes come out a little different (e.g. a battleship is only HS12) but from a game perspective there really isn't a difference. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
May 29, 2012 - 1:11pm | Yeah I was thinkimg in terms of real world battery sizes: AA & AAA. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 31, 2012 - 12:36am |  I am excited with anticipations!!!so... 150 metric tons of water = 150 cu. m = 150,000 liters = 150,000 kilograms = 1 cargo unit. it effects this simplified Cargo system a bit. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
May 31, 2012 - 6:32am | I actually used 1 CU = 150 cubic meters = 300 metric tons in the ship calculations for volume and mass. Simply because a lot of stuff that is transported is actually denser than water. However, that might change when I start reworking the cargo capacities and get a better feel for things. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
June 1, 2012 - 9:04pm | basing it on water lets the volume of the specific material determine the weight, and the specific weight determine the volume... then the CU of any given cargo (even fictional materials) can quickly be determined along with a fair price... especially since most Sci Fi Authors are often kind enough to give the audience the specific weight of their particular brand of prefabulated amulite. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 4, 2012 - 5:07am | One thing that needs to be answered soon at this point is do we slavishly remain true to the origninal weapons defenses mix or try to update it. Perhaps including rail or gause weaponry simplifying the screen tech etc. Also MHS rules as they were written can be tossed out, baby, bathwater and all. If a ship has space it can mount a weapon no more of this well you're maxed out on LBs and there fore cannot add another one but you could add an electron beam battery and a disrupter cannon. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 4, 2012 - 6:43am | I was planning on updating the weapons in the next go around. And I threw out MHS with this version. You pick the weapons you want and your ship grows to accomodate. Or if you're out of room, you're out of luck. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 March 18, 2015 - 3:45pm | Couple of notes: Terl: While I understand the actual "notation" is technically cu.m I can see problems with using it, especially around some gamers :) However a player of mine offered a solution. He noted that "cubeage" is a valid term but went on to point out there's an obvious one that sounds both 'retro' and serious at that same time: Cubits. Kind of sounds like the "slang" cubeage would evolve into over time... Also, you realize you have given an "official" version of how much volume propellant in SF takes up within the new construction rules? A "decoy" has 0.5 cubits for electronics, if the engine takes up a similar amount of volume or a bit more that leaves about 4-5 cubits for 20ADF of propellant to feed such engine. Therefore 1ADF of propellant should in fact equal about 0.25cubits of volume :) Randy |
March 18, 2015 - 4:48pm | I have to admit, that that thought on the notation never crossed my mind. I had intenteded to do m3 but didn't want to deal with all the superscripts initially. I like cubits though. As the the propellent, that is true but it's also a small engine and doesn't necessarily use the same tech as the big engines. It was just a working draft after all. Bit it is one more point in internal consistency that needs to be kept in mind. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
March 18, 2015 - 5:52pm | And I always have had the intention of small/medium/large grades of weapons but this first pass was desgined to be as nearly 100% compatible with the existing rules as possible. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
March 19, 2015 - 3:27pm | I have to admit, that that thought on the notation never crossed my mind. I had intenteded to do m 3 but didn't want to deal with all the superscripts initially. I like cubits though.As did/do I :) Bill Klee, (the aforementioned player) has a LOT to answer for in the shaping of most of my SciFi games background as well as several race, class, campaign, etc. concepts and ideas for gaming and/or life of mine :) As the the propellent, that is true but it's also a small engine and doesn't necessarily use the same tech as the big engines. It was just a working draft after all. Bit it is one more point in internal consistency that needs to be kept in mind. Yup, which is why I brung it up :) And I always have had the intention of small/medium/large grades of weapons but this first pass was desgined to be as nearly 100% compatible with the existing rules as possible. And a very nice job too, but don't worry, it seems I have over four years worth of catching up to do on the project and general discussion so I'll be a bit getting ALL my ideas out here... (Insert "diety-level" Evil Laugh{tm} here and cue fade/echo effect) Randy |
April 5, 2015 - 5:59pm | Terl question: Pods, as in the cargo carrier pods for the KH "modular" freighters. Any thoughts on how to impliment them? I'm working towards my afore mentioned "modular" cruisers but I was going to ask for your take off the top. So far I'm leaning towards "just" creating a "hull/systems" base within the above rules and adding something like 5-10% per ADF to be handled for the "coupling" system. Weapon wise I'm just going to use a basic system that a "light" weapon is 50% the size and cost of the "baseline" system and a "heavy" version is 50% greater. Randy |
April 5, 2015 - 6:18pm | I haven't really thought about it. Maybe make a class A, B, & C module and say a ship can have a number of modules equal to it's HS of the same size as its engines. Then assign a cargo capacity to each of the three size containers. As for the weapons, I always thought the ones in the standard rules were pretty small. I'd almost make the standard ones small, double the size and cost for medium, and double it again for large. That's the general way I'm looking to do it anyway. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 5, 2015 - 6:26pm | I haven't really thought about it. Maybe make a class A, B, & C module and say a ship can have a number of modules equal to it's HS of the same size as its engines. Then assign a cargo capacity to each of the three size containers.
As for the weapons, I always thought the ones in the standard rules were pretty small. I'd almost make the standard ones small, double the size and cost for medium, and double it again for large. That's the general way I'm looking to do it anyway. Something similar to "docked" ships maybe, since that's a direction it would seem to go. I hadn't actually noted the weapons sizes but was "assuming" they were bigger without referencing them, silly me :) Making them the Mk-1 (light) sounds good. Randy |
 July 10, 2016 - 8:39pm | I like this! I just used it to work up my UPFS Frontier. One question, are the masses as written or did you lop off some 00s? |
July 11, 2016 - 6:03am | Thanks. I like how it turned out as well. Masses are in metric tons, no zeros removed. There was a method to my madness in assigning them but I'd have to refresh my memory on what that was. I have a revision to this on my todo list as soon as I finish my Masters degree this summer. In working through it I realized it wasn't in the best order for doing the math without the spread sheets so I want to reorganize the order so you're not jumping around to get the calculations done. The goal is that when you get to a caclulation, all the information you need has already been determined. It's not quite possible but it could be better than it is. I also want to write up a work flow where you pick a "standard" hull size and squeeze in what equipment and systems you can. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
July 11, 2016 - 6:32pm | Terl, could you clarify Life Support a bit? Do you buy 1 Life Support of the Desired quality and it covers however many passengers/crew there are for the number of days of supplies that you buy? The PDF instructions are a little confusing, as it seems to indicate how many Life Supports to buy is determined by some unspecified formula. |
July 12, 2016 - 6:23am | Thanks for letting me know it's unclear. I'll try to rework it when I go over the rules to make it clearer. Let me know if this helps: To calculate the cost, mass, and volume of the life support system, you have to decide three things. First, the type (or types) of life support system(s) you want to have. Most ships will have the Standard life support system. Next for each type of life support system you determine the maximum number of beings it needs to support on any given day. Finally you decided how many days of supplies you want to have on board. The cost, mass, and volume of the machinery for each system is determined by doing the following: Cost: Take the value in the cost column and multiply by the max number of beings per day. Mass: Take the value in the mass column and multiply by the max number of beings per day. Volume: Take the value in the volume column and multiply by the max number of beings per day then add in the base system volume. This is done for each sysetm. Then to find the cost, mass, and volume of the suppplies, you take the appropriate value from the second table and multiply that by the max number of beings per day and then multiply that by the number of days. So if you had a Standard system, designed to support 12 beings for 200 days, the cost of the supplies would be 25 cr x 12 beings x 200 days = 60,000 cr. It would mass 0.1 tons x 12 x 200 = 240 tons and would take up 0.15 cu m x 12 x 200 = 360 cu m. I think I need to label the charts a bit better. I thought the examples would be enough to clarify it but maybe I need to add some more words. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
July 12, 2016 - 7:42am | So when using the spreadsheet, I put just 1 next to the type of Life Support (Basic, etc) or the number of passengers at that level? Then in the days box the number of days? |
July 12, 2016 - 5:40pm | You put the max number of passengers in the first box next to the type of life support and the number of days you want to support those passengers in the number of days box. I thought you were asking about the rules, not the spreadsheet. That definitely needs instructions. :) Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
July 12, 2016 - 6:26pm | Well, the rules could use a bit of reworking too, to be honest. |
 July 17, 2016 - 8:16am | Glad to see these ship-construction rules getting some recent attention. I only just came across them a few days ago, myself. Terl, you've talked before about liking the idea of some sort of "jump drive" (as separate from the standard engines in the canon rules), which I like too - do you have any intention to work space/mass requirements for such a system into your ship-construction rules? |
July 17, 2016 - 2:40pm | Yes. I actually have several levels of revisions imagined for this system. As they currently stand the ships created with this system can be dropped right into the existing game. Mechanically, from the point of view of the ship combat rules, they are identical. The only real differences are a) the cargo capacity system, and b) the sizes of the ships, and c) I expanded the radar and energy sensor systems. HS 1 & 2 ships are slightly larger than the original system and after about HS 5-7 they are smaller than the original ships. My planned levels of improvements are: 1) Simple clean up and streamlining - Make the rules clearer and easier to use plus add the pick a size and fit in what you can option. This won't change compatability 2) Expand the system - Here I want to add in things like the jump initiation system, various classes of weapons (i.e. current weapons are Class A and there are larger/more powerful Class B and C weapons) and equipment. This will impact the game mechanics as I'll be adding significantly different systems into the mix. However, this will really be more of an expansion of the system. I might tweak the HP of the ships here but for the most part want to still leave these ships as compatable as possible. 3) Rework of game system - Here I want to overhaul things like hull points, the damage amounts on the various weapons, prices, masses, etc. I want to make the capital ships truely something to be feared. I mean it's not really realistic that a HS 3 assault scout has 15 HP while a battleship, HS 20 and 1875 times larger, only has 120 or 8x as many Hull Points and only carries about 7-8x as many weapons. These large ships should be bristling weapons and be hard to damage. When a light cruiser or bigger ship drops into your system, you should be thinking "Oh, crap!" not, "Hmmm", and "Run away!" not "I might be able to take this on."  This is acutally my ultimate goal of this project and it's not really intended necessarily for Star Frontiers but my own system.Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 July 19, 2016 - 4:38am | Yes. I actually have several levels of revisions imagined for this system. As they currently stand the ships created with this system can be dropped right into the existing game. Mechanically, from the point of view of the ship combat rules, they are identical. The only real differences are a) the cargo capacity system, and b) the sizes of the ships, and c) I expanded the radar and energy sensor systems. HS 1 & 2 ships are slightly larger than the original system and after about HS 5-7 they are smaller than the original ships. My planned levels of improvements are: 1) Simple clean up and streamlining - Make the rules clearer and easier to use plus add the pick a size and fit in what you can option. This won't change compatability 2) Expand the system - Here I want to add in things like the jump initiation system, various classes of weapons (i.e. current weapons are Class A and there are larger/more powerful Class B and C weapons) and equipment. This will impact the game mechanics as I'll be adding significantly different systems into the mix. However, this will really be more of an expansion of the system. I might tweak the HP of the ships here but for the most part want to still leave these ships as compatable as possible. 3) Rework of game system - Here I want to overhaul things like hull points, the damage amounts on the various weapons, prices, masses, etc. I want to make the capital ships truely something to be feared. I mean it's not really realistic that a HS 3 assault scout has 15 HP while a battleship, HS 20 and 1875 times larger, only has 120 or 8x as many Hull Points and only carries about 7-8x as many weapons. These large ships should be bristling weapons and be hard to damage. When a light cruiser or bigger ship drops into your system, you should be thinking "Oh, crap!" not, "Hmmm", and "Run away!" not "I might be able to take this on." This is acutally my ultimate goal of this project and it's not really intended necessarily for Star Frontiers but my own system.This certainly seems to be a worthwhile endeavor -- at least to give the Knight Hawks rules a little more sense and consistencey. One of my suggestions would be... and I'm sorry if I don't know if it's already in your rules or not... to have ways to design civilian, paramilitary and military ships. Maybe even some suggestions on how to handle obsolete or alien technology such as weapons and engines. Best Regards. Joe Cabadas |
July 19, 2016 - 5:57pm | Actually, thats another difference I have already introduced, 4 different types of hulls: Light, Standard, Armored, and Military. They each have different mass and HP values. So it is quite easy to design different grades of ships. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
