 January 5, 2012 - 9:29am | This topic isn't started to allow people to bash RPG companies, rather, it's intended to discuss how we have been able to keep Star Frontiers alive these last few years. Even though we don't own the Star Frontiers intellectual property, we have a tangible product to be proud of. But. What happens when were gone? Will w00t Jr. take up the Editorship? Will Little Iggy Spud grow up to be a Real Dralasite? Will jedion's force powers pass onto his offspring? Quote from page 3: Not all gamers are so optimistic. "I think the tabletop RPG market is enduring a kind of death. I think it is transforming into something that isn't a viable commercial business for more than a handful of people," said Ryan Dancey, former VP of RPGs at Wizards and marketing guru at White Wolf/CCP. Dancey was instrumental in developing the OGL before the 3rd edition era of D&D, but he foresees the RPG industry becoming a dead hobby like model trains. "Kids stopped playing with trains, and the businesses that remained dedicated to hobbyists who got more disposable income as they grew up, until the price of the hobby was out of reach of anyone except those older hobbyists. Eventually, it became a high-end hobby with very expensive products, sold to an ever-decreasing number of hobbyists. As those folks die, the hobby shrinks. That is what is happening to the tabletop RPG business." What's your opinion? What do you see in the future of the Star Frontiersman and starfrontiers.US? |
 January 5, 2012 - 7:17pm | Will jedion's force powers pass... "If you strike me down, I will be come more powerful than you could ever imagine, darth w00t." Funny that that was the evaluation when they have sold a boat load of 4.0 material specifically for table top. I think the rail road hobby is a poor example in that it can only be done with a serious amount of hard ware being purchased. table top RPG gaming can be indulged in for a small outlay of money for a few books or to print some downloaded PDFs so that even the little people can participate. There was a rising concern over disconnetedness to your fellow man by immersion in computers and the electronic world. Then came the advent of social media which seemed to meet the need that people had been identifying and its popularity seems to justify the need for greater connectedness with other human beings. That said there is nothing so much as sitting face to face with people for connection. I think that social media will continue to evolve and try to suck people in like that undead wraith called Facebook and it certainly has its uses. However I think the death of the table top hobby is a little too early to predict as there will continue to be people realizing they need to slow down and connect with others- thus preserving the practice of table top rpging. As to new gamers, I work with a 22 year old [I'm 44] who is an avid D&D player has been for years since his older brother brought home some books back in Spain. For a time it was only him and his brothers playing together but now they play with non family members. that's acedotal evidence but its heartening to me that the hobby is not dead and its draw is just as powerful for a new generation as it was for me 30 years ago. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 5, 2012 - 8:38pm | Off the cuff no research here. Table top face to face RPG will continue as there will be people who like to meet and engage in this way. Or do you think people play bridge in large groups for the challenge of the game. No they do it to meet together, chat, gossip and socialize. You could almost say the same thing for most large group activities on the non-professional level. The game is just the venue used to gather. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 January 5, 2012 - 9:42pm | OK. I surveyed my three oldest kids, 11, 14, 16, B, B, G. They don't think pen and paper RPGs are dead. My 11 year old thinks the electronic games will eventually push them out. My 14 year old says D&D is popular among kids he knows. My 16 year old thinks that existing games may satisfy the need so companies wont make more but that pen and paper allows more than electronic RPGs. Guess who was the one to ask for SF game time for Christmas. Me, I think that we are in a transition phase. The big companies are going to have a hard time with dominating and pushing books. Every gaming group I have ever known rewrites the rules and makes their own settings. The game has always been about the association of friends and playing make believe together. The Internet has made it possible for these groups of friends to collaborate and share and satisfy themselves. What the game companies need to do is find ways to support this rather than control it. If they continue to try to exert control the gamers will continue to go off on their own. If they play with the gamers and focus on providing opportunities to game then they will survive. Gamers love to get source material and support so they can spend more time gaming and less time waiting on the GM. Gamers hate to have rules changes forced upon them just to sell more books. I don't know what the future is going to be but I don't think that pen and paper is doomed to die. The companies just need to rethink what they are supposed to be selling and what the value of it really is. If the companies blow it or give up, the hobby will survive. The players will keep playing and sharing the hobby with new generations. -iggy |
January 5, 2012 - 9:51pm | w00t shared comments from game designers he met with over the summer at some conventions: they can be summed up as, "Its not the rules, its the setting." Setting is important not the rules. That said think I have to agree with Iggy. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 5, 2012 - 11:58pm | For starters, the comparo to model trains is a bad one. The model train industry is still very much alive, but it isn't the kids that are playing with them...instead it's the older boys with more money to spend on their toys. As for what will happen with the future generation? I have no offspring here at the Shack, so the game dies with me. That burden is on your shoulders.   |
 January 6, 2012 - 12:07pm | I think Wizards is long out of touch, and indeed, started out out of touch with what will make RPG's successful in the long run. 1) As RPG's have gotten more complicated, their growth potential has deminished substantially. 2) As RPG books have become more graphic, they have become more expensive for both the artists paid and the color printing process. 3) As RPG books have become more all-inclusive, they have become more expensive to produce for their larger size. 4) As the economy has failed, people have become increasingly incapable of maintaining their hobby. They buy less books and are turning to online games and pirated material. The solution: STOP PRODUCING EXPENSIVE BOOKS THAT NO ONE CAN AFFORD FOR A GAME THAT ONLY SUPERGEEKS ARE GOING TO PLAY!!! Translation: Reduce costs by going back to black & white images produced by artists just breaking into the market, and reduce the size of the books by simplifying the game so that it is playable by and appeals to a wider audience. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 January 6, 2012 - 2:05pm | Ascent hit the nail right on the head...I can't agree more with the above post. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
 January 6, 2012 - 6:24pm | I think that a bigger part of the problem may not be the RPG companies, rather local support. Here in the sleepy Pacific NorthWest village of Portland, for example, hobby stores that support model railroading outnumber game stores like 3 to 1 (including comic shops that sell D&D only, but exluding barnes and noble or other bookstores that might sell some RPG material). Finding people to play paper and pencil RPG's with is an effort in frustration. There are lots of people 'interested' but they all prefer (i.e. "play only") other game systems, or lack the time, or in the end get distracted by some x-box game or other hobby. Getting a (local) game store to support anything but AD&D or Magic/Yu-Gi-Oh is a wasted effort; there is no profit in having people play star frontiers even if they rent the space because there are no retail sales at the store. Using online forums like craigslist doesn't seem to produce any RPG related results either. I think that there will always be pencil-and-paper RPG gamers. Just like paper books won't go away completely in favor of e-readers, or vinyl records in favor of MP3 singles. Challenge is getting them hooked up and supported at a local level. |
January 6, 2012 - 7:16pm | Hang on a second I have to recrank my Victrola. OK you were saying about vinyl not going away...Sorry vinyl is dead. The artifacts may still be lying around but the that part of it is gone. What has happened is that new technology has replaced it and we have CDs which are still doing OK since not everyone wants a mass of electrons hanging around. Somethings however stay because people enjoy them and reach out to others who do too. Wood carving is like older than recorded history but still practiced by alot of rather high tech people. Face to face RPG will hang on just interested to see what new developments there are. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 6, 2012 - 7:34pm | If I put my business hat on (disclaimer: I'm an engineer, we don't understand numbers with $ in front of them or the motivations of consumers ) there is the razor razor-blade model where you sell the razors for cheep or free and then get the customer coming back for the razor-blades. Iomega did this with our zip drives. We sold the drives near or below cost and made a mint on the disks. HP and the other printer companies do this with printers and ink. What the RPG industry has not committed to is that the rules are the razor and the modules are the razor-blades. This may be the recipe for success they need for the future.-iggy |
 January 6, 2012 - 7:55pm | Demonstration is also KEY! If people see a group of folks sitting together telling a great story rolling dice and having a great time then they will be curious to see what all the goodness is about. One of the big detractors of many gaming experiences is there is always the argumentative rules lawyer in the group that throws a wrench. Experienced gamers take it stride and at times even encourage the debate to see if something cool developes out of it. However, from the casual observer it looks like a red faced frustrated nerd arguing technobable about something they don't understand and loose interst in further inquiry. Kind of like when I see a reality TV show like Jersey Shore and quickly hope to quickly change the chanel and find something more intellectually stimulating. The trick is demonstrating to people that the game is fun, exciting, and stimulating. Scenes from E.T. showing the kids playing D&D or the episode of Community that featured D&D, and lets not forget the stat reciting viking child from the movie "How to train your dragon". These and other examples have done a lot to show that the games are still out there and still fun. (Of course there are probably other examples that I am just not remembering them). |
January 6, 2012 - 7:59pm | Hang on a second I have to recrank my Victrola. OK you were saying about vinyl not going away...Sorry vinyl is dead.
Interesting, if it's truly dead...can someone tell me what those things are called that go onto the dual turntable thingies that every mobile DJ utilizes? Google 12" Remix if you truly think vinyl is dead. Those aren't 12" Laser Discs they're spinning, and that's not a laser on the armature reading it. |
January 6, 2012 - 9:15pm | Hang on a second I have to recrank my Victrola. OK you were saying about vinyl not going away...Sorry vinyl is dead.
Interesting, if it's truly dead...can someone tell me what those things are called that go onto the dual turntable thingies that every mobile DJ utilizes? Google 12" Remix if you truly think vinyl is dead. Those aren't 12" Laser Discs they're spinning, and that's not a laser on the armature reading it. Alright time to quote one of my favorites, Miracle Max says vinyl is mostly dead. Which is another way of saying slightly alive. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 6, 2012 - 10:10pm | http://collectingvinylrecords.blogspot.com/
View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
January 6, 2012 - 11:09pm | Vinyl still lives and so does Star Frontiers (and RPG)! |
January 7, 2012 - 5:10am | One more time folks, vinyl is dead. People collecting vinyl records is like people collecting blackpowder rifles. In fact it is exactly like that. Yes people buy and sell them. Yes some people use them for thier intended purpose of shooting the HUGE BUT is are either of those things being used as the cutting edge everyone uses everyday product supported by both industry and the public? Nope. Vinyl and Blackpowder weapons are only being used by a few and can not be considered alive. Oh and those scratching discs. The aren't buying the White Album to do that. First scratching as stated is scratching a vinyl disc a method of abusing the disc so that it becomes unplayable in its original form. They didn't create vinyl records to be used as musical instruments. I see I haven't been graphic enough. Mr. Doe is a nice guy. Goes to work, files his taxes, contributes to his local Scientology group, usually obeys the traffic laws, interacts with people around him, shows up to the offsprings rollerball games, visits the parental units, plants a victory garden to help the war against the Sathar and many other wonderful everyday activities. One day Mr. Doe Ixiol addicted mistress shoots him in the head with a laser pistol. He now has no brain function and is being kept alive by machines. Like vinyl records you could say he is still alive but is that really the life he is supposed to have? Or should we just say pull the plug and harvest the organs. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 7, 2012 - 11:38am | Vinyl and Blackpowder weapons are only being used by a few and can not be considered alive.
Exactly, those are not commercially viable for more than a handful of people. Small companies can perhaps make a living if they're operated with minimal staff out of a garage or perhaps an older 'light industrial' building in a bad neighborhood. The original posting with the quotes out of the article pretty much implied that tabletop RPG was going this same way:
From my experience I tend to agree with the former VP quoted. No, tabletop RPG games are not going away, but they are not going to be commercially viable for larger companies with a lot of overhead but the games will be supported by small groups of people that want to be involved and put time and effort into keeping them alive. And yes, there is opportunity in that environment for individuals or small companies to make a profit with supporting products/services. StarFrontiers seems to be a good example of this, WotC at some point apparently decided it was not commercially viable. But it is still alive & supported by this community. |
January 7, 2012 - 12:14pm | I'm still at a loss as to how something can be considered dead if the manufacturers are still manufacturing it. Go to any night club and the DJ is spinning 12" remixes of CURRENT MUSIC. Yes, that latest Lady Gaga tune you're hearing is via a 12" remix. In other words, that DJ had to have purchased that vinyl disc NEW, considering it's a NEW version of a NEW tune. And if the DJ damages the disc via "scratching", he has no problem finding a replacement because...like I said, he bought it NEW and as such can buy another. It's not going to be like the Beatles' White Album, he can simply go back where he bought the first one and obtain another. Furthermore, in this day and age of bean counters, if something wasn't selling it certainly wouldn't be produced and marketed. So considering that this particular venue is still beng manufactured, marketed, and purchased in quantities satisfying further production and marketing, how can they be dead? The Chevy Volt...now there's a dead product. GM is able to loan alternate vehicles to owners of these defective vehicles because, well let's face it: loaning out cars to six people isn't breaking the bank. It's one of many reasons GM is already looking to outsource that turd, it simply costs too much to keep it on the market. And since Government Motors mandates this particular turd, Genreal Motors need to find a way to make it more cost effective for the next six customers...and hope that market explodes to 12 via a lower pricetag. But unlike the Volt, record companies aren't bound by Uncle Sam to continue production of 12" remixes (believe me, GM would love nothing more than to get out from under the Volt...they never really wanted it in the first place, it was a concept car that only took off in the current administrations' minds). Nay, the record companies continue to press vinyl because there's a demand for it, and as such they're willing to meet that demand year after year because that demand is sufficient enough to be profitable. So someone needs to explain to me how that meets the criteria of being "dead". |
January 7, 2012 - 12:40pm | I can go to a book store and purchase a book written in Latin. Latin is a dead language. Some people still speak and read it but for all intensive purposes it is not gonna be the national language of any country anytime soon. Vinyl discs used for one special purpose be a very select few does not make the vinyl disc market alive. It only means some specialty items are still there. Do you drive a horse drawn carriage? Didn't think so, but hey the Amish and Mennonites do. Can you consider the horse drawn carriage industry alive? Talking manufacturers and suppliers and farriers and others who support that commodity. Or can you say automobiles are the standard and a few through backs do not make something alive. Oh and yes I do consider Star Frontiers to be in the dead game category and I am honored to be among the few die hards working to keep something of it alive. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 7, 2012 - 4:30pm | I would agree with Ratt that as a commercial product that Star Frontiers is long since dead and gone. However, as a Hobby, as an Activity, and as a Media it is very very much vibrantly arrive and in respect to this community growing. Like a cancelled television series, SF has developed a new life and fandom that will last for a long time after the death of its commercial property. And, like Star Trek, Firefly, and other cancelled Sci-Fi franchise entities if there is enough exposure, interest / popularity, and money a return or revival is inevitable. I think our only major obstacles here is money and legal ownership of the IP (both tend to go hand and hand). When the rights to firefly were recently purchased by the science channel, star Nathan Fillion, stated in an interview (paraphrased) that if they could buy the IP they (the cast) would return to making new episodes but buying the IP from the studio is just too expensive. As long as WTF- OTC / TSR wont consider selling the rights or IP for SF we are going to be stuck in the limbo of fan-fiction. But I firmly belive that RPG's will continue in one form or another. I agree that the pen and paper version will survive as an indepedent hobby but the mass market production is questionable for all but the most popular titles. |
January 7, 2012 - 7:25pm | Yes, the 12" remix is certainly a niche market, but I wouldn't be quick to label that market as obscure. While night clubs are a dime-a-dozen market (as well as a minimum life expectancy due to the fact that there's only a few places that can be "hip" at one time), there are many DJs out there that work not only at said establishments, but many more that work private parties and other functions. I just checked my yellow pages and found a full column of DJ companies. I also found a full column of hobby shops. Now while I haven't called any of them, I can guarantee you this much: 100% of those DJ outfits use 12" remixes. I can also guarantee you this much, considerably less than 100% of all of those hobby shops carry gaming equipment. Just the names alone on half of them tell me so...you're not going to find any gaming stuff at an RC car/plane shop or slot car shop or train shop. I did however notice the name "train" in five of those listings but not once did I find the word "gaming" in any of them. Which tells me that the "dead gaming industry" (quoted from the article) isn't nearly as dead as the "dead model train industry" (also quoted from same article). Yes, we as a community are keeping SF alive. Alas it's that type of "alive" that was referred to earlier, as in "on life support equipment". If the rights could ever be available for purchase, it would certainly be more feasible to keep it alive without the LS equipment (meaning it would graduate to that level of "alive" where it needs no LS equipment, as in it begins to sustain itself again). Whether or not it could resume the mantle of "booming business" version of "alive" is another possibility, but there's certainly that clarity between the need for equipment to keep it alive or not. But from a business standpoint, SF is most certainly a dead product...not so much from the target audience but by the owner of the game...but nonetheless it most certainly is a dead product by the definition that nobody is buying it (by default, mind you...but dead is dead). Regardless, I can't discern the fact that a niche audience determines that a product is dead. My definition of a dead product would be one that historically festers on the shelf, not one that historically sells. Coincidentally, that's the same definition the bean counters will refer to if/when they decide to actually "kill" the product...if it sells and makes them enough profit to continue making it, then it's alive and worth future production (this is what GM is working towards with the Volt, they want to get out from under it, i.e. "kill" it). The bottom line here is that just because you don't happen to be a member of that niche market audience, that isn't what defines if said market is alive or dead. |
 January 10, 2012 - 7:39am | You all have valid points. I think it can be resolved if we could come to a consensus (I hate that word, btw) about the definition of "dead". Miracle Max was right. All these subjects seem to be at least slightly alive. I have a friend who makes reproduction black powder rifles. I asked him to make me a simple 'barn gun' (Pennsylvania 1700's) but it would have cost me almost $1000. Many of his guns cost almost twice that. He isn't rolling in the dough since he makes these guns by hand, limiting the number that he can produce in a year. However, he stays busy at it. As shack pointed out, it is one of many niche businesses/products. However, since new guns are being made and purchased, by any reasonable definition, it cannot be totally dead. But only people with a passion for history and firearms would consider taking up the business. BTW, companies who manufacture buggies for the amish are doing nicely. But back to RPG's. Table tops have a myriad of obstacles to over come. (here are just a few) 1. They lack tactile stimulation. Kids are hooked on graphics. 2. Kids attention spans today are too limited allow many to have the chance to really get into the game. 3. Many rules and systems are too complicated to get past. Even for smart people, they just don't flow well. 4. People lack time. There aren't enough modules. Even among gamers, it's hard to get somebody to be the game master. especially if you need to create the adventure before you can play. 5. The STIGMA...All you "gamers" are weird and scary people.  My kids love SF and I can't play it with them enough. My 12 yr old has already asked me to bequeath her my materials. But will they play it with their kids? I don't know. And I much as I hate to say it, I don't think I care if they do or not. As long as I can still play and enjoy it. Old age sucks. It has made me too fatalistic. |
January 10, 2012 - 9:43am | Old age sucks. It has made me too fatalistic. Amen, Brother. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 10, 2012 - 10:02am | New fuel for the fire: WoTC is planning a reboot of the D&D franchise and this time they want player imput. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/arts/video-games/dungeons-dragons-remake-uses-players-input.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&emc=eta1 Guess that will be D&D 5.0? There is a really big "IF" here though, if they listen or if this is just another money grabbing scheme to sell some hard cover books. I think I'd have to get involved if they wanted to do a remake of Star Frontiers. I'm sure more than a few of us could tell them how to do it right, but by the same token I'd be very nervous about what they might come out with. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 10, 2012 - 12:01pm | I'm very excited to see 5e/anniversary edition and plan on being heavily involved both personally and professionally. I'm not sad at all that I spent money on 4e material, from what I gather this edition will allow GM's to play a breadth of D&D material since it's conception. In order to survive the next 5 years, WoTC will have to listen. I'm taking notes, they have in the works a great business model to reach out to different fan markets. After all, I make their paychecks possible. :-) Of course, I think we'll still see more and more indie-press groups pop-up. Nobody has really discussed the future of SF or SFman. Here's my poke at it.
Anyway... thoughts from the w00tster, your Void may vary, zamra's are still deadly. VOTE: Like/UnLike - I don't much care.  |
January 10, 2012 - 1:30pm | The biggest obstacle will be getting the fans of the various editions to agree on what to include and what to dismiss. Is the interest in miniatures still alive? Prepainted or pewter figures? Do we need stacks of collectable cards to play? Will we need 3 books costing over $100 to just start or can we have a $30 game which can be added to if we want? Still hope this goes well. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 10, 2012 - 1:41pm | What is alive and what is dead? I am going to go with TV series as examples here. Star Trek is a pretty good one to use. It was born back in the 60s and died but then found some life in reruns and then the movies and finally in new TV series. During all this time books and other products sold about it helped keep it alive but in a different format but yes I would say some life. Yes Jed and Woot that means your about dream that Beauty and the Beast still being alive is not true. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 10, 2012 - 2:29pm | New fuel for the fire: WoTC is planning a reboot of the D&D franchise and this time they want player imput. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/arts/video-games/dungeons-dragons-remake-uses-players-input.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&emc=eta1 Guess that will be D&D 5.0? Well, I have yet to come across the new red box set that was released last year. I even called a few of those aforementioned hobby shops that didn't have "train" in their name Now I don't know if that makes that red box a dead product, but it's certainly not alive here. Suffice it to say, having seen the lacking tidal wave of red boxes out here I won't hold my breath for this 5.0 project. Lost in Space is dead. Nothing new is being done with it as far as I know. Yes a movie was made but it was so different that it really shouldn't count. Considering Hollywood's inability to produce anything fresh and new, that movie project died well before the opening credits first scrolled across the screen. Yes Jed and Woot that means your about dream that Beauty and the Beast still being alive is not true. Frankly I'm, amazed at how many different incarnations of that story exist out there, including live action flicks. It's actually a shock to many people that Disney ADAPTED it... |
 January 10, 2012 - 5:16pm | Well, I have yet to come across the new red box set that was released last year. I even called a few of those aforementioned hobby shops that didn't have "train" in their name That's odd. I see them all the time. Even the Borders that went out of business had them. Can't remember if Barnes and Nobles did or not. There happen to be three gaming stores within 15 miles of my house and they all have them. If you really want one, I can grab one next time I'm headed that direction 
Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
January 10, 2012 - 5:33pm | Thanks Tom, I'm not really interested in it....I've simply been semi-actively looking for it just to see it live and in person. You know, "proof of life" more than anything. I just thought it odd that I saw the ads and such but never the actual product. I didn't think of the bookstores...I'll try B&N next time I go. Or hit my buddy up that owns a comic shop for his distributor catalog, just to see if he can get it. |
