 December 29, 2011 - 7:58pm | Found the following in the list serv archive, like it. Written by Kveldulf. as they laid it out in KnightHawks only the UPF had battleships. Heavy cruisers had been the ultimate "capital ship" of Sathar War One and the interwar years, with the UPF battleships being first built and deployed sometime in the decades leading up to SW II. My take on Frontier naval history is: First Common Muster and SW I period: - capital ship - heavy cruiser (only a few per navy) - most common "ship of the line": destroyer (a few light cruisers to head task forces) - most common "patrol ship": corvette (HS 4) - lasers are dominant long-range weapon Interwar period (SWI-II): - invention of: battleship (circa FY 30-60), assault scout (circa FY 40-60) - construction of: space fortresses (circa FY 25-35, as Spacefleet ships are posted on Blue Plague blockades and unable to defend planets) - modernization of: frigate class - redesigned to carry more weapons major fleet changes: - battleships replace heavy cruisers - faster light cruisers built as battleship and attack carrier escorts - frigates replace destroyers and corvettes (deployment of light cruisers compensates for lighter weaponry of frigates compared to destroyers - overall fleets go for faster, lighter ships with heavier armament rather than slow, more heavily armed ships; particle weapons (electron & proton) replace lasers as primary long-range weaponry post SW II: - construction of more attack carriers ("fast carriers") for offensive actions and mobile defense; attack carrier / light cruiser task forces begin to replace battleship / heavy cruiser task forces - weapon specializations: battleships continue to be regarded as flagships / "big guns" and bombardment vessels, as well as missile platforms (torpedoes and seekers); light cruisers are equipped with more lasers and particle weapons to fit their carrier-escort role - use of armed and heavier stations as fighter bases / depots for carriers as much as for simple defense of planets - development of a battleship-class "supercarrier" able to hold 2 to 5 times (GM's choice*) as many fighters as attack carrier - development of HS2 "bombers" and "heavy fighters" for system defense and (in limited numbers" deployed aboard the new supercarriers (attack carriers are better off with more HS 1 fighters since no major new weapon, just more light stuff, is carried by the HS 2's) *keep in mind you don't want to run out of counters; fighter swarms can be a real pain to run due to this; I'd consider making each fighter counter represent a "flight" or "wing" of 3 fighters instead of one, unless a PC is I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 December 29, 2011 - 9:27pm | "...making each fighter counter represent a "flight" or "wing" of 3 fighters instead of one..." I do this by default, as it always odd that Carriers carry so few Fighters, and placing them in a formation as a single counter seems a natural chose. I like the inclusion of the nonstandard ships. The SF Wiki I have been working on have lists of ships, with variations for nearly all types of ships (most are official) that might be useful to efforts. |
December 29, 2011 - 9:54pm | I use one counter for 6 fighters as a tactical vice, concentrated fire power, baby! I also like to fly assault scouts in wings of 2-3 if I dont need to deploy them as screen for heavier ships. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 30, 2011 - 7:15pm | I have been considering fleet structure for SF, but the number and types presented in KH seems limited. I have also been thinking about how Militia and UPF fleets have only a few ships, the lack of info on Militia Fighters based on space stations, and the lake of logistical ships (Medical Frigates, Supply Ships, Minelayer, Assault Transport, Missile Transport, etc.) in the UFP Fleet. With the UPF Fleets, I see the need for more ships to make-up their Patrol Groups and fleet Elements. I see a Patrol Group as in the book (1-2 escort Assault Scouts and a Frigate) but with one extra Assault Scout (2-3 instead). I see a Combat Element (called "Strike Force" in the book) being made-up of one Capital Ship (a Light or Heavy Cruiser, a Battleship or Assault Carrier) with an escort of 2 or more Destroyers, while a Support Element having one or two unarmed or lightly armed logistical vessels taking the place of a Capital Ship, while still having escort ships to protect them. A Fleet should have at least have 3 Combat Elements (one commanded by a Battleship: the flagship), and 2 or more Support Elements. With the Militia fleets, I picture that most populated planets would have at least three small full-size ships (usually a Destroyer and two Frigates) and 2-3 Assault Scouts escorts per ship. I can see major planets not supported by the UFP having an old Heavy Cruiser and/or a newer Light Cruiser, each escorted by Destroyers and Frigates, along with patrols of Destroyers, Frigates, and Assault Scouts. Each patrol allows for normal fleet rotation, or to spread-out the patrol area. Militia Fighters and Cruisers are reserved for major treats to their home world and stations. |
December 30, 2011 - 8:28pm | Malcadon is doing the kind of speculation I like to see but I think we should nail something down first: the one hard set of data that we do have on force structure and T&O for both Space Fleet and the militias is what is in the campaign game section of the KHs book. I think we must establish what these numbers represent and where they fit in history and then we can work both backward and forward from that point. Mal is suggesting numbers for militia that exceed whats in the book. That said, the presence of battleships makes it impossible to be SW1 era. and I think everyone would agree that the numbers in the book are a little thin, in and of themselves, and couldn't possibly represent a war time fleet even with the statement that there are many other patrol groups (2x Assualt scouts and 1X FF). The thin numbers suggest to me that this is the state of the fleet and militias at the outset of SW2 after several decades of politicians trimming back military budgets to curry favor with the electorate. Sathar have moved at this point because their spies tell them that Space Fleet is a hollow shell that will shatter on the anvil of war if they bring the hammer. Space Fleet has not been getting many new ships but rather ungrading and refitting the ones they have to save money so Space Fleet is numerically outgunned but has some tech advantages (that breaks canon but makes a good story and fits the known facts in a superficial way- however those tech advantages need to be quantified- perhaps greater detection range sathar must first arrange their fleet and declare speed before the UPF player does, fighters have a one shot rocket booster providing 1 instant ADF when fired think the boosters on the old school colonial vipers). After the war, as the war is still fresh in everyone's memory, most militias pick up old space fleet vessels and up gun their pocket fleets with cast off destroyers, light cruisers and heavy cruisers though most eventually sell off the obsolete big gun ships in favor designs with greater automation (for the savings on personell) likely they are looking for fast, heavy hitting ships flown by small crews and get away with this because they are always close to port and station personell can assist with maintenance. DCR for post SW2 militia ships should be a little shakier than Space Fleet ships though this should be decided on a militia by militia basis. If a planet has a economy that lets it field a fully staffed hvy or light cruiser then its DCR is not reduced. Influence of PGC should still be strong in the lead up to SW2, the legacy of its influence dates back to SW1 where most Frontier wide industry conforms to a standard it set and that the UPF enforces to simplify its logistics. Post SW2 should see changes and the rise of new styles of ships where the vrusk are building their own designs for their militias from fighters up through frigates or destroyers, in yazirian space whole new production lines of fighters are being fielded as well as scout ships. Dralasites are not motivated to produce their own designs or perhaps the drals of Inner Reach develop and deploy a special anti-piracy design, though I think that the vaunted assualt scout is an excellant cutter and anti piracy ship. Post SW2 can also see the rise of the super carriers- ships that can project tons of force (like a real world carrier) that obsoletes the battleships. Might be a possibility of a rip off of some Steven Segal Movie about a battle ship on its last voyage and a terrorist group looking to take control of it. (so who wants to play the cook?). Post SW2 era could see the introduction of a stealth scout- open up sneak and peak missions and other roles that the F117 performs. Post SW2 era should also see new developments in Astrogation where void jumps take much less than 10 hrs/ LY to compute, perhaps if a vessel has the new, more expensive astro package it can compute a void jump at a rate of 1hour/LY travelled. In another hundred years it will be 10 minutes/ LY. With changes like that it might be worth considering what the maximum jump range is- other RPGs had maximum jump ranges- probably to prevent players from saying we're jumping to the other side of the galaxy. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 December 30, 2011 - 8:59pm | Well, I've never taken the fleet allotments in the Second Sathar War game section to be the full military compliment of the Frontier. It's just too thin to my thinking. I've always assumed that those listings were for play balance of the strategic game and that they represent a minimum. In a campaign setting, I think there would be a lot more ships out there. Although you could have that be the Spacefleet compliment as Jedi suggests if you take the view that Spacefleet has been parred down over the last couple of decades. So I'm not completely against it. For me it comes down to how common spaceships are. If they are relatively common, the militias at least have to be a bit bigger. If they are rare, then the numbers are probably okay. Of course, if they are rare, they should cost more and it should be really hard for the PC's to get a ship. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 30, 2011 - 9:39pm | And just for fun I worked up the production capacity of the Frontier's Spaceship Constructions Centers. Using the maximum number of hull points a SCC can work on at one time and the fact that a year is 400 days and it takes 30 days per HP to build a ship, the total production capacity of the Frontier's SCCs is 6800 hull processing units (HPU) per year. The military capacity (only the Type I and II centers) is 5733.3 HPU. Where a HPU is simply one hull point for 30 days. Now, to build a ship takes the ships hull size squared in HPU. A HS one ship takes up 1 HP of space for 30 days = 1 HPU. A HS 3 ship takes 3 HP of space for 3 * 30 days = 9 HPU. A battleship takes up 20 HP of space for 20 * 30 days = 400 HPU. And so forth. Based on the composition listed in the SSW game, the total construction costs of the various fleets are:
Now that ignores political, economic, and logistic factors but the basic idea is there. You can make a lot of ships quickly if you need to. Anyway, just more food for thought. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 31, 2011 - 4:30am | The size of the fleets seem to be based on the encumbrance of the rules with a large number of ships in play (see page 59 of the Campaign Book) and the number of ship counters provided it the box set (as noted all throughout The Second Sathar War scenario), then with game-balance. And yes, the rules note that the Frontier can produce a large number of ships in short order, but it looks like the bulk of production is with civilian craft. Although in wartime, the stations can be retooled to produce more warships, so after SWII, they could have a lot more ships to work with. Even with the limited production of warships, overtime - considering the time scale of the fiction - there would likely be a larger number of ships in the fleets (both with Militia and UPF fleets), with a surplus of older vessels. The only thing that makes sense is a lackadaisical support for the fleets, or strict policies that limit their size - both suggest bad politics. One thing that I should mention, that tends to get overlooked, is that Militia ships seem to be old surplus ships. The rules seem to establish that they are of a lesser quality then UPF ships, and it makes sense that they are a hand-me-down fleet. Just pointing that out. |
December 31, 2011 - 6:48am | @Terl Obar: I like the analysis of production capacity, there should also be a mechanism to shorten the time period by doubling up construction crews. @ Malcadon: I agree on the hand me down nature but also advocate for treating each individual militia as a separate entity. Everyone's favorite militia, the Royal Marines, is well funded and very elite, which translates to being every bot as good as Space Fleet. Outer Reaches militia are really just thugs and pirates, quality of ships and crew are always suspect. Inner Reach shares a system with a pirate state that it has fought with repeatedly, its crews are highly dedicated and the ships are well maintained but have that hand me down feel. Etc. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
