 August 25, 2011 - 6:44am | Somehow I don't see a conventional invasion with hundreds of thousands of casualties being on the menu. And you have to wonder if they nuke the planet will the sathar return the favor on their next raid. Kinetic strikes are as good as a nuke and leave no radiation but do we really care if we irradiate a worm infested world? After all habitable worlds seem to be a dime a dozen. Would a scorched earth / shiva option be effective or will it open a can of worms. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 August 25, 2011 - 11:24am | Perhaps in an adventure the UPF located the home world, only to find it's an outpost. Amidst the ruble the sathar return and up the ante. If a sathar world was found, private organizations would dump tons of money to eradicate that world if the UPF did nothing. Too many in the frontier have been effected, there is a deep hatered. |
August 25, 2011 - 11:54am | Exactly if we start nuking them they might start nuking us. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 25, 2011 - 12:16pm | I suppose the big question is what would a sathar world look like? It would have to have a star ship construction center, this would be a high value target, just to set them back. Perhaps they have resource mining in the asteroid belt or on other planets and moons. Fleet presence? likely. planetary defenses? likely. Subject races/slaves? likely. Ability to call for help like the obelisk called for a battle fleet in the Volturnus modules? yes. Response time is variable and hard to quantify- basically it can be what the referee wants. so you get a mother of all battles in space against a fleet plus fixed defenses, then you have to take stock and see if you can continue or need to withdraw. do you use kinetic strikes, nukes or just seed the high orbits with 100,000 mines? I suppose the answer also depends on what the UPF is prepared for or has resources for: raid, seige or? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 August 26, 2011 - 6:23pm | Jolly good show, Safari anyone, hmmpf hmmm that's a good a chap...just place those cross hairs on that worm world and we can be back in time for some a good yazarian ale. |
August 30, 2011 - 9:04am | "I'd travel 10,000 light years to smoke a worm." |
 September 3, 2011 - 7:26pm | Nuke 'em from orbit!! BOOM! By the way Larry, they did nuke Pale and New Pale in SW1... I imagine that "ravaging" = nuking. |
 November 24, 2011 - 4:49pm | Possibly the reason that the UPF has not gone looking for the Sathar in earnest is that they feel the Frontier is not ready for war on the scale the strategists suspect it would take to attack just one home system. Remember it is the whole system one must attack, not just the homeworld. -iggy |
November 24, 2011 - 4:58pm | Possibly the reason that the UPF has not gone looking for the Sathar in earnest is that they feel the Frontier is not ready for war on the scale the strategists suspect it would take to attack just one home system. Remember it is the whole system one must attack, not just the homeworld.
OR........they are cashed strapped and can't really afford the number of ship a forward offensive would take.I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 24, 2011 - 6:28pm | Looking at your map of Sathar space I would say that it's both cash and the Frontier not being large enough, especially in soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen, and spacemen to stir up the hornets nest. -iggy |
 December 28, 2012 - 7:27pm | The UPF has not the resources for an all out assault on a sathar system, even if they found one. These two yazarians and this vrusk walk into a bar... |
December 29, 2012 - 1:00pm | I am not certain that would be acurate. Every piece of info on the Sathar both Canon and SFman indicates a frontier wide kill on sight order amongst everyone. Should a Sathar homeworld be located the UPF would be accompanied by any and all space faring militia, military, and able bodied forces that would poor all their resources into the chance to wipe out a Sathar homeworld or system. The absolute hatred of this race that would prompt a standing kill on sight order for all frontier citizens would definitely encourage a general muster the likes no one has ever seen. |
December 29, 2012 - 5:01pm | I am not certain that would be acurate. Every piece of info on the Sathar both Canon and SFman indicates a frontier wide kill on sight order amongst everyone. Should a Sathar homeworld be located the UPF would be accompanied by any and all space faring militia, military, and able bodied forces that would poor all their resources into the chance to wipe out a Sathar homeworld or system. The absolute hatred of this race that would prompt a standing kill on sight order for all frontier citizens would definitely encourage a general muster the likes no one has ever seen. Thats more or less what I thought but I also wonder at the sathar response. To be sure they could show up in any number of systems with overwhelming force and nuke the inhabitable realestate till it glows. sort of a tit for tat. Any why not the UPF just wiped out one of theirs. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 26, 2013 - 4:09am | I like the mine idea. After the UPF fights a bloody battle to gain the system they then mine the homeworld to the point nothing gets in or out. The only problem I see is that the worms are smart enough to figure something out eventually to deal with it. Well, I just realized, all they have to do is any sathar ships that come into the system from wherever they were hiding or from another world could just send in asteroids to blow the mines and then no problem. So that is not really effective. I agree that if the UPF nuked them, they would nuke back. The sathar are ruthless in both wars and in all of the other cannon material presented, so I don't see any easy way to do this. If they have more than one world with major populations, and we can assume they do, then it would be a long battle with reinforcements or retaliation. I say raids until the UPF discovers more about them. |
January 26, 2013 - 6:57am | just park ships at the mine perimeter and ramp up the power on the radar till you localize the mines and zap with a lazer, or bring in a mine sweeper. though if you go with vmnjn's take on the sathar you have worlds run by sects that have a military industrial complex and worlds settled by low tech sathar so what the UPF would do with each of those would be different. something with a military industrial complex is probably a harder nut to crack and landing on a low tech home world world would be a situation where Ground Fleet would just not have enough ammo for the waves of suicidal worms armed with hand tools that would swarm the "defilers" Ground fleet units would be initially over run and they'd have to bring in forts like we saw in Starship Troopers. Of course the sects would turn up soon too. and Space Fleet would have a hot time in the cold of space. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 26, 2013 - 9:27am | I think the UPF would try some sort of blockade. Invading a planet with billions of sathar on it would be pretty much suicide without millions, probably more like tens of millions, of troops. I think what the UPF finding a real, not another Outpost One, satharian world would do is finally bring the sathar to the table so to speak. |
January 26, 2013 - 12:26pm | I think the UPF would try some sort of blockade. Invading a planet with billions of sathar on it would be pretty much suicide without millions, probably more like tens of millions, of troops. I think what the UPF finding a real, not another Outpost One, satharian world would do is finally bring the sathar to the table so to speak.
I rather doubt the sathar can be negotiated with. I think orbital bombardment is the only way to deal with them but then you have to expect them to return the favor.I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 January 26, 2013 - 7:29pm | First intelligence. Sathar do anything to prevent others from learning about them. Finding a world of Sathar would be an intelligence bonanza worth 10,000 times the information found on Snowball. Attacking the planet you have to weigh your options. Allied forces realized after Okinawa and the mass suicides of civilians that an invasion of Japan would not only result in one million Allied casualties but also several million Japanese casualties both military and civilian. Nuking them was the bets option to end the war. The UPF needs to find a way to end the Sathar wars. Getting the intelligence and then deciding on frontal attack, siege, blockade, orbital bombardment until surrender, nuking, making their sun go nova or some other method to bring the end to the wars would be best. Not just an attack for revenge which invites retaliations. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 26, 2013 - 8:14pm | I am thinking biological warfare would be the safest and easiest if the UPF could do it in a way that the sathar would not realize it was from them. Everything, including what vmnjn has posted, shows the sathar can never be negotiated with. As an enemy, they have always been to me an unstoppable force. Blunting an attack, war, device or whatever, but in the end, they will not stop. The whole religious devotion makes sense and could explain why they suicide when they are caught. |
January 27, 2013 - 5:23am | What is this never you speak of? According to one of the very few good parts of the Zeb's timeline the Sathar sent agents to negotiate with the UPF for a year and a half. Yes it was a stall to allow the build up of Outpost One but who knows there must have been some progress to keep both sides at the table for that long. Maybe they were close to a deal that the Dralasites wanted but those battle hungry Yazirians demanded the UPF attack so they could satisfy their life enemy pledges. History just wrote it differently. Since the Zeb's timeline is such a horrid thing. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 27, 2013 - 5:55am | Rat T has a point but then they really weren't negotiating just using an available tool in their agenda of rape pillage and burn. I think it would take extreme and unusual circumstances for the sathar to negotiate and even then could you trust them? setting wise you would not want to wipe them out IMO, so no magic bullet of biological warfare. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 29, 2013 - 12:09am | Biological warfare would not be a magic bullet, but if the UPF could hit a few planets before anything was found out, there would be less repercussions to start with. This would give them time to prepare a fleet or whatever for retaliations from the sathar. If they are scattered among a lot of star systems there really is no way to eradicate them. I do like to think they have an area of space that they control, but with out a full scale annihilation, nukes, chemicals, biologicals, I don't think there is a really easy way to get rid of them. I would be one of those situations the UPF would have to balance cost one way or the other. |
January 29, 2013 - 5:45am | Biological warfare would not be a magic bullet, but if the UPF could hit a few planets before anything was found out, there would be less repercussions to start with. This would give them time to prepare a fleet or whatever for retaliations from the sathar. If they are scattered among a lot of star systems there really is no way to eradicate them. I do like to think they have an area of space that they control, but with out a full scale annihilation, nukes, chemicals, biologicals, I don't think there is a really easy way to get rid of them. I would be one of those situations the UPF would have to balance cost one way or the other. I agree biological warfare wont be the magic bullet but you can bet that it would be percieved as a magic bullet. you could see politicians campaigning for reduced military budget becasue the sathar threat is ended. The same politicians would be railing against the inexcusable fault of the military for allowing the sahtar to come back and surprise everyone- which might not have happened if they had not cut the military budget. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 29, 2013 - 10:56am | Maybe I'm reading it wrong but aren't we doing with the sathar, here, what we don't do with the core four? As in subscribing a mono-culture to them? If the sathar are a mono-culture then peace might very well be impossible. However if, like our world today, the sathar are a people of many languages, of multiple philosophies. Then peace is very possible. Like a twist on the old Sting song... "I hope the sathar love their children too." It comes down to making it "real" to the satharian masses. A distant, even if costly, conflict can be abstracted into nothingness. Especially if its been going on for decades, even centuries. "Its just the way it is," so to speak. When matters escalate to the point where their own fannies are on the firing line? Such as Spacefleet showing up in orbit over an actual satharian world, instead of just another outpost. Well, now it is "real" to the masses and gets a lot more scrutiny than what is happening in the great out there. If the UPF plays it smart, they could trigger a fundamental change in what the satharian regime lets the clans, sects, scout troops, door-to-door oppression salesmen, get away with. The cost of not reigning them in would be too high to ignore. Now if the UPF plays it stupid then what they could actually do is start a "real" war with the sathar. Not invasions with century long breaks inbetween. |
January 29, 2013 - 9:06pm | I get the monoculture argument but how do we reconcile the home masses with tbe suicide actions of these "raiders"? If the sathar at home arn't that bad, why do their young sons/daughters so readily choose suicide? These guys are not vikings off on a little adventure of war and pillage. They exterminate species and enslave masses. There is something very fascist about their society. -iggy |
January 30, 2013 - 5:01am | Going with Iggy on this one that the Sathar have a Fascist culture with everyone totally devoted to the State. However this does not mean that it is the only Sathar culture. It is the only culture which the Frontier has had contact with, Maybe. The Sseseu are Sathar in everything but name and color. On Earth Europeans and Africans are all humans with different cultures and yes differing colorations. We are getting into a very deep subject of what makes a Sathar a Sathar and what else might be out there. It is very possible that there is a Vulcan equivalent to the Romulan Sathar the Frontier has only met so far. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 30, 2013 - 12:15pm | The only culture we have officially seen is that of clan x and clan y and there were some material differences in them in that clan y had a slightly different weapons mix than clan x IIRC from the module. I would say that the fascist nature of their society is on the clan (or sect level) each clan is a fascist state unto itself and is willing to compete with the other fascist states occasionally as well as cooperate with them from time to time. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 30, 2013 - 1:09pm | The "majority" of sathar might be quite peaceful indeed. Let's look at a historical comparison. I would hardly call Belgium a barbaric or fascist country. However, what occured in the Congo Free State could be considered quite barbaric indeed. It went on for years before it was finally exposed and the Belgian government took the Congo away from him. This was on the same planet. Think of how long Leopold could have gotten away with it, if it was happening on planets dozens of light years away. As far as sons and daughters going off to die? How many sathar have died fighting in the Frontier? We have two invasions and various skirmishes stretched out over a century. We can't even be sure how much of the satharian ship crews were actually sathar. Instead of robots or slaves/allies. We do have the siege of outpost one but I don't recall counts of actual sathar ever being given. So not only could the relative numbers be minor compared to population totals. Its never really explored where these soldiers are coming from. Within their society that is. What if the Frontier has been actually fighting the sathar version of the French Foriegn Legion? Maybe they are recruited from the dregs of sathar society. They were "disruptive elements" on the home world. Part of the reason behind their terrible deeds might be that, well, they are terrible people. Cut-throats, crooks, perhaps even the criminally insane? Maybe instead of Clan X and Clan Y its actually Penal Battalions X and Y. Maybe Y's robot loving trait is that battalion's preferred way of keeping tabs on its members. As much jailers as assistants. Think of the manpower a greedy leader could raise by emptying Earth's prisons. There are around a million and a half just in the U.S. Giving them relatively primitive ships and weaponry, compared to their "real" military's hardware. And then sending them off to deep space to slaughter and enslave. The profits from the enslaved get sent back to the home world. While those who resist are slaughtered. So you get plenty of expendable manpower, a major and ongoing economic boost, while most of your government and population remain ignorant of what's "really" going on. Until the UPF Spacefleet shows up in orbit and suddenly the greedy leader can't hide his misdeeds anymore. |
January 30, 2013 - 7:43pm | One thing to remember is that good and evil are very cultural relevant. Look at history and every felony on the books today was an acceptable and even encouraged practice in another culture. We may view these things as evil but the cultures that practised them thought they were good. The Sathar might be vicious and suicidal but to them that could be the epitome of honor. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
January 30, 2013 - 9:00pm | One thing to remember is that good and evil are very cultural relevant. Look at history and every felony on the books today was an acceptable and even encouraged practice in another culture. We may view these things as evil but the cultures that practised them thought they were good. The Sathar might be vicious and suicidal but to them that could be the epitome of honor. That was the interesting thing about vmnjn's take on the sathar with his sects document. it actually is a view of the sathar that doesn't just paint them in broad strokes of evil. its just that some segments of their society do evil things from our perspective. Which is what pisses me off about vmnjn's take on the sathar is that I enjoyed the simplicity of thinking of them as just evil and now I'm confronted with an alternate view that if I adopt it I have to rework a lot of prior assumption. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 30, 2013 - 10:32pm | I feel a bit like jedion. I like my game villains to be evil. In real life I can't paint a whole race as evil. So.... I have a quandary. However I do want to balance the two. ImperialLord laid the foundation for a very evil villain. The game designers have stated in interviews that the sathar were switched to be the villains, the equivalent of d&d orcs. Yet, the original designers wanted them to be a player race so we got the s'sessu in Dragon magazine. So I want to balance the two. For years I did that by having the race fork in their distant past. Now we are exploring a more detailed fork of their species. In my mind Vmnjn's work is melding with Imperial Lord's but hanging up on the suicide thing. I do not see a people that suicides it's soldiers getting willing recruits for a sustainable amount of time. The people would revolt. I wonder if the waring sathar are using clones for their soldiers. -iggy |
