 May 18, 2011 - 6:43am | IIRC Gama Dawn was fundamentally flawed as you were handicapped as a player unless you became a mutant. Not to brag but I'm auditing a set of sci-fi rules that will be published soon and I have to say its mentalism rules as well as some rules for gene forming of the PCs body, with good and bad changes will work well as a basis for retooling the gama dawn. It all hinges on making sure that the character developement for mutant, mentalist, and pure strain human are balanced. Equipment cant be the balancing factor as anyone could obtain equipment. For the pure strain human it will have to boil down to skills and capabilities. but if this is gama world then we could make it so that important old tech will not recognize mutants and mentalist and work for them- not weapons but security protected computers, installation security, vehicle controls etc. then pure strain humans get to dominate in the arena of old tech. or enforce serious downsides for mutations I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 May 19, 2011 - 9:41pm | The original intent of Gamma World was that PSH would start weak but get more powerful since they could use more ancient technology then mutants since it would not fit or recognize the mutant. This was mostly lost since few people played it that way. Similar to the armor in fantasy games would fit no matter who or what the previous owner was. Skills should be a leveling factor for all species and be even. One thing to give mutants an edge would be allowing them to learn to use their mutations in new ways. This should be very controlled and roleplayed with the same mutation giving different results depending on how the mutant developed it. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
 May 27, 2011 - 7:12am | I believe balance should be graded on a curve. Allow a dragon to be a dragon, or don't pretend it's suposed to be representing a real dragon. Same with mutants, mentalists, and aliens. Yes, I recall hearing an interview about the PSH balance with Mutants, and what rattraveller said was about the same information given by the guest. I didn't run GW, but in all the games I played in or watched, I recall many of these issues either being ignored or circumvented. I have played and run RIFTS, the premise there is about the same as GW, and again I say... balance? the gamebooks have balance, look! [...holds the mainbook on his edge-wise hand...] Balance imho, is a environment-setting-issue, not a game-mechanic-issue, in that anything added must first be balenced between it's intent in the setting and the intent of the setting, and then consideration given to playability within the mechanic, or any necessity to expand the mechanic, without destabilizing that primary setting-balance. After that, dragons should come with nice large warning labels;  "This Be A Dragon, GMs Allow At Your On Risk!", so there is no confusion as to why it's not allowed, when the player is told no.Nor is there a surprise when the GM says yes, exactly why the game S.H.I.F.T.S.  [S..t Has Increased Frequent Time on Stage] Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 May 27, 2011 - 10:59am | As one of the designer for the gene forms in Frontier Space we balanced the mutations by allowing more powerful mutations to have a side effect. One character I made ended up smelling really bad and was hated by animals. Not fun on a ship and could be a deficit exploring a new world filled with high concentrations of critters. :-) I don't know of a game system that can't be broken by players. My belief is we design games and adventures that allow the GM to force a balance if need be. Ya know? |
May 28, 2011 - 5:48am | Exactly, I do believe that as well. As a GM, I just get a little frustrated with the frequent mechanical balance, that forces a setting continuity against itself, and thus becomes setting/mechanic unbalanced. It is my belief that a Setting that Balances on a Decentered-balance Element, should retain that 'Unbalanced Setting' Element in the Mechanical Balance, and that a System Mechanic should be considered Properly Balanced when the Setting Continuity is properly reflected by the System Mechanics. If the System Mechanic fails to be Balanced with the Setting Continuity, and forces Primary System-Balanced Mechanics, then it is Unbalanced by Overbalancing the System, or in basic nomenclature, the game is broken. controversial content: In other words, it is not broken if the setting continuity states Dragons are Dragons, and Humans are Humans, and both are playable at their own internal level of balance. It is not broken if the system allows Dragons to squish Humans without effort, as appropriate for that setting continuity. It is my belief, that it is up to the players(gm included) to bring 'responsability' to the table in a Humanocentric oriented game, when being allowed to play such an 'unbalanced' role... If the player is irresponsible with that 'power advantage', or conversely with any 'power diadvantage' when roles are reversed, it is my belief (controversial as it may be to place the blame on a 'free-willed' individual, rather than an inanimate pile of bound paper), that the player is broken, not the system or the setting, and may, quite rightly, be called so. All political connectedness aside... fix or remove, whats actually broke. Fix the player(gm included), not the system, in such a case as described. So I still stand by my statement, that I believe balance should be graded on a curve, or at least given easily adjustable granularity incrementations, for the brave GM and responsible Player, to use. This was actually where I have found Gama World, as well as Star Frontiers, would fail, in as much as they are "broken" for me... "fundamentally flawed as you were handicapped as a player...[or a GM]..." in many ways, especially in these mechanically overbalanced issues. I sit in a camp, among a few voices, that have expressed a celebration that many modern games have "matured away from this earlier inherent system mechanic balance mindset"... agreeably, some have changed the paradigm better than others... but also a frustration, that some new editions have taken a turn for even more strict "game-balance" philosophy stances... "...force a balance..." is a terminology I am philosophically set against. Imho, a GM should not be any more inclined to a 'dictatorship status', and thus compelled to 'enforce balence', than a player should be considered to have 'no voice' in the game, and thus 'no responsability' in the game, being merely along for the ride in the GM's sporty new red fiat... But, in a single phrase, and imo, Setting based Game Physics should balance with the System Mechanics, as opposed to System Mechanics forcing Game Physics to comply, in spite of, or even while ignoring, the Setting Continuity. [steps off the soapbox... looks around to ensure no-one was listening to his heresy... and rushes off through random dark alleys...  ]Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 June 20, 2011 - 5:03pm | That's exactly why I believe a game should be dangerous. You're not a hero if you have superpowers. As Syndrome said: "When everybody's special, nobody will be.". Being a hero means facing overwhelming odds at the sacrifice of one's own wellfare. Being a living hero means facing overwhelming odds with ingenuity and surviving. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
June 20, 2011 - 7:17pm | Originally that was Superman's problem. He kept having powers added and could not be hurt so where was the danger unless others were threatened. Kryptonite finally solved that problem but still rather hard to worry since you know the main character will never meet final death. Now RPGs and British TV shows the main characters can die, the idea is how much a threat will the game be? Of course life and death do not have to be the only threats. Cthulu uses sanity and some games use monetary status and if you have some good detailed backgrounds and NPCs you can have some other threats. Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go? |
June 20, 2011 - 11:15pm | Well stated, it is that fine line between dangerous and deadly GM... C'thulhu lies awaiting the long travller in the tattered fringes of the eternal night of void-space; because in void-stasis, no one can wake you from It's dream... In the deep abyss of space no one can hear you scream... The unknown horror peers back from the black celestial twilight of every known star, while the undying fear breeds in the darkness like a pestilence... Fear and horror never shy from, but rather surround and infiltrate every civilized world, waiting for the weak sentient mind to prey upon, and the daring sapient mind to torment... Ia Ia, Known by many names on countless worlds, H'ai'yar'llll'Syha'h'ng'Nilgh'ri'phog Ai Ch'shagg'n, Ia, Ia, Ph'lgh'ri Ulnog Ai Ya, Chahlwnafh C'thulhu'ilyaa llll'oth Ph'wlgh'rih'agl Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 21, 2011 - 5:17am | That's exactly why I believe a game should be dangerous. You're not a hero if you have superpowers. As Syndrome said: "When everybody's special, nobody will be.". Being a hero means facing overwhelming odds at the sacrifice of one's own wellfare. Being a living hero means facing overwhelming odds with ingenuity and surviving. Me thinks that ascent would like a game like shadow run. I dont believe in the holy grail of perfectly balanced game but a game that gives and overwhelming advantage to one character type will mean that the best choice will be that character type. Sure some will want to be different and will take the disadvantaged character but many players (a majority) will do the hard math and use the advantaged character. Having looked at systems like HARP, Shadowrun, and Frontier Space it is possible to have a system that allows players lots of options to buy their advantage from a pool of points; ok that statement is more correct for HARP and Shadow Run and not so much for Frontier Space but FS is well enough balanced that its mentalist PSA does not unbalance the game in favor of a Jedi Knight character. My read on the Gamma Dawn rules is that mutants have the advantage over pure strain humans. I once joined a game where I could role up a new character or take over an existing NPC, the problem was that new characters started at the standard 2 frist level skills of the Alpha Dawn rules and the existing NPC that were available had boat loads of money and were on the verge of gaining starship skill under the KHs rules requirements. It was easy enough to do the math but I rolled up a new character. being the least capable in a team of level 4's, 5's, and 6's pretty much sucked like a hoover vacuum cleaner. When things got fustrating the GM had to bend rules to let my character keep up- sucked more at that point IMO. Things didn't have to be that way in that game nor do they have to be that way in Gamma Dawn. If memory serves one of the big criticisms of the Buck Rogers rpg was that one pc character class has advantages to excel in level over all the other classes. IIRC GRUPS was another of those points based systems with lots of player choice possibilities though I never played it beyond rolling up characters. Everything does not have to be even even; I actually perfer a random method of generating ability scores- sort of my idea of taking the hand that nature and genetics hands you then building the character from a points based system. not everyone will be the same that way. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 21, 2011 - 7:52pm | Nicely stated, I can second that... Game Balance is worth looking into, but I make a preference of bias toward system/setting balance over game/system balance... in that I think it more appropriate to ensure the game physics accurately reflect the intent of the setting dynamics before and with priority over system balanced internally... I have experience with Shadow'punk/Cyber'run/Ice'space... they all suffer an early D&D dynamic in that one role is supported as dominate over the others... typically the Street'Edger Solo-Sammy or Fighter type is capable of being a one-man merc... but that is the dynamic of the genre, much like low to mid level fighters and barbarians dominating over equal level priests and wizards and even some rouges being the typical dynamic of fantasy genre... I feel these are not game/system balanced but are adequately system/setting balanced, as the Solo-Sam is likely to get into thicker risk than a Info-Techi or Med-Geek... even in a team the solo-sam is often going to move-out and draw fire, while the geeks and divas duck for cover and provide support and mission critical skills... Rifts is another that often comes under fire for being unbalanced... but it is a similar issue that Dragons PC's will draw more fire and situations that mere human mercs are not going to be involved with, so it balances in the setting... though the game system would make it seem like the dragon is a better choice, once play starts the setting rewards that choice of power with higher threats and situations that the poor unfortunate dragon's squishy friends can't help resolve easily but still have a good chance of survival (barring Darwin Award winners)... Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 23, 2011 - 6:51pm | As stated above, superheros, in a sense, need to be cut down to size. It's like the bigger gun analogy Lt. Gordon proposed at the end of Batman begins. So, if someone wants to be the big guy on the block, then they're going to end up facing the big danger on the block, at the expense of those around them. They'll soon find themselves alone because their very presence endangers those around them. This creates a situation wherein the superhero is so busy fighting that he never actually resolves the adventure, but its someone without superpowers that ends up resolving the adventure because the superhero is too busy doing the grunt work. In other words, I propose that if your players have a tendency to pool toward power, you can provide equally significant reprocussions. They'll soon learn that it may be more fun to be the peon than the scion. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
June 24, 2011 - 12:31am | yeah! exactly like that... heck, I understood that better than I understood myself saying it... kewl  That analogy was actually proposed by the original creator of Batman too [iirc] and again through the Commissioner and possibly Alfred in the early stuff, so it was very fitting... pretty sure SJG:GURPS and PB:Heroes Unlimited had a few pages on that same point, and it was a large theme running through R.Tal:Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads! ... haven't read all the SR material thorough enough to be sure, but I would imagine it would be in there somewhere, considering the focus of the genre... Just for a moment of sanity, I wouldn't suggest a real hounest-to-legend Dragon be an acceptable Star Frontiers PC... nothing on that scale really... just that yeah, there are balances inherent to tipped scales that mechanics alone doesn't cover, and if a particular profession or alien biology is tipped a bit it shouldn't be 'held-back' artificially for the sake of that game balance, when there are likely hidden setting balance issues that can't be countered with mechanics juggling... In this case the subject is mutants, and... they are usually... hunted, feared, hated, and just generally misunderstood... even by other mutants, especially in a random mix-up situation like Gamma World... additionally a point that GW barely touched on ever, probably out of fear of aggressive disinterest in having a 'fatal character' forced onto players... but 99% of mutations should be considered imminently fatal and sterile, and the rest should still be eventually fatal and genetically flawed donors... harsh realism of hard sci-fi accounted for, and pardon the GURPS style examples... every such 'mutant' has the 'borrowed time', 'dark secret:mutant' that splits into 'hunted', 'hated', and 'feared' when discovered, as sets of disadvantages inherent, in addition to several social disadvantages and quirks that set them apart from society and make it hard to keep their secret hidden, and very likely tied to particular mutations... all this dark environment focus on mutants easily sets them up for angsty quirks, antisocial personalities, and doomed nihilism disadvantages... all of which help fuel the fear and misunderstanding and initial mistrust even from other mutants... I feel for the problems of a low level character in an established game... Making a character as per instructed, I had a D&D character that was resurrected four times in one session, because the GM kept insisting I be counted as part of the party, before I had even met them, and (somehow teleported or serendipitied if not willing to be present) on location for every major goon and minor villain... all of whom randomly decided to remove the weakest link of the "party" even to the exclusion of other innocents (NPCs that didn't get randomly attacked) in closer proximity to the taunting protagonists (other PCs)... three sessions and eight more resurrections latter I am finally introduced to the party by a member that wasn't present during the other events that had shown more concern for protecting the weak (frequently me)... they asked if I wanted to join them, I stared at them like they were crazy, took sides with the local population, and had them run out of the country over the next two sessions... didn't bother to make a new character for that game... That said, I have had far, far, far, far, far, far, far, way much better experiences than that in mixed level games, so my moment of revenge was justified in my mind at least... btw, I only complained (for two hours) at the end of the first session... when I was asked what could be done better (I was asked, and I politely declined to comment so soon, twice)... so I am rather proud of me on maturity too... still I look at it fondly, because I gained anecdotes for the snack rooms at conventions... it impresses the girls Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 24, 2011 - 7:46am | LOL. Something tells me that the anecdotes "proving" your maturity are somehow outshined by your smiling nature. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
June 24, 2011 - 7:47am | Just for a moment of sanity, I wouldn't suggest a real hounest-to-legend Dragon be an acceptable Star Frontiers PC... nothing on that scale really... just that yeah, there are balances inherent to tipped scales that mechanics alone doesn't cover, and if a particular profession or alien biology is tipped a bit it shouldn't be 'held-back' artificially for the sake of that game balance, when there are likely hidden setting balance issues that can't be countered with mechanics juggling... Ahem...cybodragon.View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
June 24, 2011 - 8:45pm |  cybodragon?  thats not the nasty cyber-beast from one of the modules is it?I mean, cyber-dragons work for the Rifts Japan setting... but SF?  A regular Mechanon PC ok, even a trained psi-op, but a full-conversion-dragon is way off my list for a viable PC... Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 25, 2011 - 5:47am | To day were play SF from the point of view of the sathar; here are the pregenerated characters: 3 sathar, 1 zuraquor, 1 mechanon, and a cybodragon.... I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 25, 2011 - 6:47am | ok... scenario specified, I admit potential... scenarioed... was not looking that far outside the box with my commentary... seems a Sathar perspective would change a lot of dynamic... one shot pre-gens like that example, easy peasy... have given it thought before, but there are some parts of the basic setting I would like to firm-up first... pre-gens are a little like handout-npc's, rather than chooseable pc's that might have game-balance issues, and need warning labels... Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
June 25, 2011 - 8:40am | It was a tongue in cheek attempt at humor on the cybodragon discussion. ;) I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 28, 2011 - 5:22pm | I didn't make the association that you were speaking of player characters. I thought you meant the baddies they faced. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
July 2, 2011 - 1:32am | points lost all around for not thinking outside our respective boxes... it's kewl... the tic I got, but the idea still caught my attention... I like mixing-it-up a bit every now and then, let an alternate perspective be played out, sometimes there is even a point... Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
