 April 8, 2011 - 5:57pm | I think that power creep is an inevitable part of any game, and the first king Attributes and Skill creep is the most common and prevelent because it is generally out of the referre's hands, and all players want to have the best character possible. while this is one of the goals of the game to watch characters grow in capability over the course of a campaign, it can become a problem, when it becomes an arms race between the referee and the players. As the players grow in power the referree is forced to continually increase the skills and abilities of his opponents to offer a challenge to his players. A solution to the problem with characters becoming too powerful is simply to shift gears in the type of challenges that a referree offers his players. If the campaign has become overly combat based (which is where the arms race senario is most common) the referree might begin to add more encounters where the characters have to use their wits, or role playing skills rather than their high skills and attributes. Mysteries, political situations, and in star frontiers, exploration and first contact situations can offer great ways to curtail a campaign that is devolving into hack and slash 101. The second type of power problem, equipment becomes a problem because of the referee. If the characters have amassed enough equipment that they have one of everything, its because the referree has been overly generous, and the solution to this is to stop being so generous. limited use items, or items requiring unique power sources are an easy way to resolve this issue while still seeming to be generous. The Players will have to learn to use their items wisely if they know that the items have limited charges, uses. Of course characters should be allowed to get better equipment as they go allong and the ultimate goal may be acquiring some type of battered old freighter which opens up the universe for these players. So give them that freighter, but make sure they've earned it, and then let them begin worrying about the most common way to control a character's increasing wealth....Upkeep. Living expenses, licensing, taxes, and purchasing power sources, and ammunition can be used as a way to drain away all that excess money they've amassed, and should be something the players should come to expect as just what it costs to adventure in the referree's universe rather than a punishment. Also licencing and customs can also be springboards to adventure specially if the characters decide to try to skirt the laws, or ignore paying their dues. Anyway I hope this helps. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
 April 8, 2011 - 6:36pm | A raid on the players arsenal by the local star law arms inspector could take some of those high end WMD out of their hands. Heck crap happens, even in the gaming world, one day you buy this shinny heavy laser for your trickedout Explorer H2 and the next day the fuzz is in your skimmer garage hauling it away bc the local city council passed an ordinance prohibiting possession of millitary grade arms in the town, city, province (what have ya). Leaving the characters only their small arms and a few items that the inspectors might have missed. |
 April 9, 2011 - 5:32pm | lets not confuse Power-Creep and Power-Creeps
Yes over a long running campaign it seems a bit inevitable, everyone likes the 'new toys' and they usually take the game up in power. GM'a are in a position with many players, who have been conditioned with the expectation of an entitlement to gain more powerfull equipment from certain progressive-based systems, when they don't give out the appropreate reward in magic (or technology) for thier precived accomplishment. As a generality, Equipment is in the hands of the GM, Skills are either hard-coded in the system, or in the hands of the players. However, players that rely on skills and nifty-powers are often less abusive, supers-games frequently being a genre exception in that nifty-powers may be either, hard-coded, or treated almost like entitiled equipment... For the most part I find SF to be one of the least problematic to power-creep, skills are almost hard-coded, often difficult to purchace, in this area I feel there is a lack of diversity and a tendency to fall behind any power-curve expectations over the long term.. Equipment however can be a problem but is almost entirely in the hands of the GM, since nothing can be bought if it can't be found, is considered illegal/needs permits that arn't avaliable, runs out of power or is otherwise poorly maintained, or is placed in the characters hands only on a loan... too many ways exsist to limit equipment, that the only way it steps up is if the GM allows for it;s continuance, and the GM is allways capable of making a situation where it is useless and providing consequence for over-kill. I equate my SF experiance to my R.Tal: CP experiances in this matter, Power Creep is the sole responsability of the GM, a bigger gun makes for a bigger target, A bigger target can be found and have it's gun taken/disabled more easily. And if they really get too big a head or too aggressively anti-social with their toys, remind them it is a cold dark place in space, when you haven't been making friends.... up close and personal like, thru' a hull breech.... after all 90% of the time a cracked tin-can equals death ya'know, no big gun to save you there. The lack of power-creep is typically why I reach for levelless, point based systems, with use it or loose it skill options, and somewhat realisticaly balenced PTB's (be it Star Law and Streel, NetWatch and Arisaka, or just the local Unnamed Sociopaths Gang who happend to have come on a stock-pile of new toys themselves... if the Players can do it, so can the occasional crack and crackedup NPC teams) power-creep in the industry sense of the term, is something that has either been overlooked in the new suplements or hasn't... but again, sometimes it is a feature.... Rifts has made it a fine art, intended or not, that every new supplement over-powers the last, however again, in experiance, it can usually be avoided, and there is always something bigger, smarter, faster, stealthier, or just more plentiful. While most Fantasy and Supers games have more portintial for this, than most sci-fi, or even modern, imho, and it is a bit more expected within the first genres, than in the later. I'm afraid I would need an example of any power-creeping in SF, I have not much experiance with seeing a SF-unleashed style, all my examples offered 'no-creep-likely' based soultions, so I find it hard to imagine things getting out of hand. I hope the suggestions were relevant. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 April 9, 2011 - 11:40am | In SF, I usually only see power creep occur on the equipment side. Players and GMs alike, inspired by SciFi or comics or whatever, start building bigger and better things - because it's so dang cool! When the GM is introducing this stuff, that's where the problem comes in. It's very difficult for a GM to recognize his own creep. When it comes from the players, it is much easier to control by making it rare, dangerous, and/or expensive. In the worst case scenario, simply ruling that the ultra-powerful item does not exist may need to occur. On the skill / ability side, house-ruling limitations, severly limiting XP awards, requiring more (and more expensive) training, or simply starting with new characters will get any power creep under control. Another way to control skill / ability creep is to adopt the Zeb's Guide skill system, forcing PCs to spread the XP across a wider range of skills. The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
April 9, 2011 - 4:22pm | Thats what I mean I guess, I don't see any ultra-powerful gear to creep in.... other than a ship, and the arguments that ships are all continent obliteration missiles, just by exisitng... I can't find any uber-powered equipment in the books, and havn't had any introduced in my SF games, played or run.. I could see where some of the concepts like Mecha could become a power creep, but I havn't used anything larger than PA, and exploration walkers... and inevitably they fall under the 'Big Gun' issue, where they are too easy to remove through theft or military action if abused... The skills in the game are largely non-combat, survival based, technical skills... thats the focus of the skills provided, even using expanded lists, and taking things into an urbanized campaign, intruige, industrial subterfuge, and ecconomic manipulations, or political and social sabotage, in the government and corporate sectors... the skills arn't uber-powered Droping to a street and savage nomads game, maintaining equipment is as tough as it is on the real edge of the frontier... And anything the Sathar leaves behind in an encounter, is likewise, a suspect for legitamate confiscation, out-right theft, reduction of efficiancy or breakage due to missuse. having nothing myself that I find example worthy, I am at a loss how it is a problem, in what I consider one of the most low-key games I have ever played. I have attributed this very lack of this I find in certain games, as a factor in the reduced popularity, where other games, that have more internaly avaliable, and are philosohicaly supportive of, game-creep issues, frequently gain popularity exponintially, untill they hit some intangible crittical-mass. OT - <snip, edit>
If I may request examples... I am really curious, what specifiacly has been a creep issue, for others, and jedion? Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 9, 2011 - 1:38pm | Okay here's an example for you...The characters are working for the PGC and are investigating several break ins at PGC data centers throughout Port Loren. The characters to make a long story short end up defeating the five sathar agents and recovering a Sathar cube of unknown origin.... The scenario says that the Referee must determine what the cube does, and decides that if held a certain way it can create life like holograms that require an Intuition check to see through them. Seems like a simple device right? The characters decide to keep the item rather than turn in it, because unfortunately the raiders killed themselves rather than be captured. During the next adventure they begin using the item to create holograms that fool many of their opponents and speed through the carefully created scenario their referee created, and now he realizes that power creep has begun.... "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
April 9, 2011 - 4:59pm | This intro game scenario is easily rectified. The cube is of alien (Sathar) design and contains technology and a power source that the characters do not under and cannot maintain. So after three uses (and this maybe liberal) the cube is now depleted and the characters can no longer use it. I'm sure the characters will probably use one or two activations of the cube just learning how to turn it on, leaving only one charge remaining for use in an adventure. You could tell the players that each time they use the cube that external lights dim by 30% until the cube is completely dead. |
 April 10, 2011 - 6:14am | Skills based power creep: a player with a high dex character plowed all his exp into gyrojets skill so that when combats came up he was a one hit wonder, demolishing adversaries far faster than I wanted to see as the ref. Its not really a big problem as equipment can be introduced to tone that back but the game in particular was the Volturnus series and using equipment that was intended to prune back advantages of a PC's skill meant that some or all of said equipment would fall into the players hands and that of course leads to the equipment based power creep. Letting players be one hit wonders is not the end of the world- you can increase the number of adversaries so that while their "good shooting Tex!" skills ensure they are dropping 1-2 baddies/ round there are more where those came from. tactical solutions on the part of the adversaries can help as well- sniper high up out of reach, some hover cavalry, combined arms philosophy in weapons choices so that one guy with grenades lays down tons of smoke from cover to counter the PC's high damage output beam weapons while the rest of the opposition is armed with weapons unaffected by smoke etc/ something I've been thinking about is the automatic miss rule. 96-00 is an automatic miss but if the actual number rolled is even (even is easier to remember because "the GM is getting even") then something bad has happened like the lasing crystal has cracked and the weapon is now broken for the remainder of the combat and possibly not worth fixing. Next add in environmental factors for extreme environments: extreme heat, cold, jungle, desert etc all add to the range at which there is a problem basically the range (on the dice) at which something bad happens to a weapon or other equipment is dropped bellow 96 to the next lowest number divisible by 10 (90,80,70 etc) example: 96-00 is automatic miss range but since the PC is in the burning lands of Volturnus the Referee rules that 2 harsh environments apply: desert and extreme heat thus the range at which something bad can happen to the laser pistol from his emergency pack is 80-100. any dice roll that falls in this range and is even then the weapon has jammed or been damaged and is useless till the end of the combat. at the end of the combat a d10 is rolled and if the number is even then the damage is permanent or costs enough to fix that replacement is a better option. Should the PCs repair a weapon the referee could assess an aditional 10 points to the range at which the weapon has a problem. These malfunction rule primarily applies to extreme environments and not down town Port Loren- though fire fights there should draw lots of scrutiny being in the shadow of the Star Law building. I've long been tempted to draw up a chart of whats legal in weapons on a planet/system bases for the Frontier. You bring a heavy laser to Clarion and guess what there are consequences. Royal Marines confiscate all weapons and impound your ship and assess fines, PCs are lucky to get their ship out of hock and are forced to borrow money to pay their fines. lender is possibly unsavory and has a little job for them. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
April 10, 2011 - 9:07am | http://www.gnomestew.com/tools-for-gms/gnomenclature-a-diminutive-rpg-glossary#p Artifacts of prototype or alien origin are in the realm of 'testing for viability', they could easily break or simply cease to function without explanation. In addition to these they likely draw unwanted attention from those who either have the authority to confiscate, or the ability and resources to obtain them without alerting those who have been discoverd to posses them. I would assume some likelyhood of alien and prototype technologies containing 'fail-safes' and tracking becons, as well. Min/maxing skills has it's own hazards, it would be within the effective concept of the character to take advantage of the characters chosen limitations. Occasionally increase the importance of skills that could have been chosen but were intintionally mined-down, and down play the usefullness of those skills that have been maxed-up, and in this way the 'focused' character has the focus made more obvious.
These are regularly used tropes in literature, theater, and film, and come with their own recognizable disadvantages. The term Power-Creep, origonating as an industry term for the tendency for RPG publishers to increase the power level of characters created with (and found in) sourcebooks, often beyond the power of those created solely with the core rules. This is inherent primarily to games with an activly advancing timeline. A player that chooses to use the option of maximizing a abilities in one area, while minimizing them in others. is Min/Maxing and is usually considered to be equivalent of the character in films and literature who shoes a large focus in something but regularly fumbles common tasks in other areas. It is the struggle in over-coming those minimized abilities, that gives the story its pathos to the hero. A player who blatantly chooses to do this can legitamatly be considered to be choosing this archetype, with all it's rewards and disadvantages, and should be used. A game that has become a series of treasure loots, risks the Monty Hall syndrome, where the potential for tangible rewards far outweighing the risks involved, grows with each loot-n-plunder. A player who regularly exploits loop-holes in the rules, but can somehow never be caught legitamatly breaking them, is derisively considerd a Munchkin, by others who don't feel the need to exploit the rules to maximize enjoyment. Unless they are employed by a company, where they are highly respected and crucial part of the development of the game, and paid to be play-testers. All of these terms, and others I havn't thought of, are likely to be crossed-up, within the OT intent I discern from the OP. Understanding which one applys to a given situation, may help determine the best method of resolution. Most such labled problems, have common methods of dealing with them, more than I know of personnaly. I can see the concern in a broader sense of it. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 10, 2011 - 7:15pm | Had a thought on the tendency of PCs to loot bodies and keep the goodies- the looted weapon they just got has a few "bodies" on it and Star Law is looking for the owner to prosecute for murder. seeing as how the PCs didn't do the murder they'll get off but items will be confiscated and they'll spend a few days behind bars. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
April 11, 2011 - 4:45am | Nice!! Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 June 12, 2016 - 9:07pm | What I am seeing is a potential power creep in that my PCs just finished their first full storyline and basically after the XP was duly handed out per the rules suggestion each got a new skill level. Yes, I know that the costs start multiplying, but even allowing for that it seems like that's a bit fast. What am I not seeing, or is this one of those "little bugs" in the SF rules? |
 June 13, 2016 - 6:48am | That doesn't seem too fast to me. "On the average, player characters should be receiving about 3 to 7 XP each during an average evening of play." If they play well, they can get 3 XP per goal accomplished. If we assume there are three goals available in a session, you can potentially get a level 2 military or technological skill in a single session. Beyond that, it takes multiple sessions to get enough XP to level up a skill. And all this assumes you're not spending XP on abilities, languages, programs, or Spacefleet advancement. How many sessions were in the "storyline"? How many goals were there to accomplish? How well did they accomplish those goals? We need to see this data if we are to properly evaluate your players' rates of advancement. I have a hard time seeing this alleged "power creep." If anything, experience points are too hard to acquire. To take a starting character to his first spaceship skill is the equivalent of taking a 1st level D&D character all the way to name-level—it's a lot of hard work. |
June 13, 2016 - 7:37am | Fair points, though I don't make Spacer skills the equivalent of the old 1st ed Bard to begin with. And it did take us awhile to get through the storyline (I'd say roughy the equivalent of maybe a half-length Volturnus). Never mind me.... :) |
June 14, 2016 - 8:46am | This power creep could be worse with A Skilled Frontier fan rules. It's actually easier to drive one skill to level 4-5 fairly quickly. Had on player do that and walk around with a laser set to max- he liked to end combat fast. Although, I don't mind the PCs becoming one hit wonders with high skill. I simply throw extra combat their way to chew through resources and potentially think of other less violent methods of encounter resolution when ammo is near depletion. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 14, 2016 - 11:40am | How to deal with one-hit wonders? Throw a different hit at them. I don't see any reason to prevent a character from specializing instead of spreading his experience points around. That's what adventuring parties are for. |
 June 19, 2016 - 8:33am | This power creep could be worse with A Skilled Frontier fan rules. It's actually easier to drive one skill to level 4-5 fairly quickly. Had on player do that and walk around with a laser set to max- he liked to end combat fast. Considering the BTB rules where you shoot, deal with return fire; shoot, deal with return fire; shoot, deal with return fire; reload, deal with return fire; shoot some more, deal with some more return fire...can you really blame him?  Power backpacks may be great for high-SEU shooting, but at 10kg it still saps the average characters carrying capacity by nearly half so a lot of players opt for dozens of the massless clips. Source your encumbrance rules...a character can't lug around endless amounts of stuff. On that note, a simple solution is to make ammuntion clips have mass, four or five per kilogram is not out of line. Another solution for the high power shooters: equip the bad guys with the guns they lack defenses for. Albedo & inertia defenses are the most common so outfit the enemies with sonic & electric weapons. |
 June 19, 2016 - 7:44pm | Then there are the training rules on page 11 of the expanded rules. Hypno-training, teachers, and practice all take time, five days, one month, and referees discretion respectivily. Then there is the costs for Hypno-training, teachers, and practice of 100 Credits, agreement/barter between characters, and free/supplies only respectivily. You trade between time and money. Whichever way you do it, this tempers power creep and encourages players to spend XP on abilities. I had players teaching each other weapons skills in the Volturnus campaign and this worked out well as they got to spend some of their XP while on planet and advance at a balanced rate to the scenarios. After the campaign they had extra XP that they could use in the down time between adventures where they went back to school as it were. -iggy |
June 19, 2016 - 7:49pm | You can also come up with creative ways to drain XP, such as by making them a sort of "Karma" or "plot point" letting your players do something really cool (as long as it's approrpriate to the situation), or buy off a frak-up. |
June 20, 2016 - 7:01am | There are so many things to spend experience points on, I don't see that you'd ever need to "drain" them from player characters. You can dump huge amounts into abilities. If you really think skills shouldn't jump up quickly—an opinion I don't share—you can simply ask your players to spend their XP on something else instead. |
June 20, 2016 - 7:58am | There are so many things to spend experience points on
Too true. One of my fave PCs is a yazirian with a 65% battle rage score. Sure, I could have gotten the same attack bonus by bumping his melee weapons score by two levels for far fewer XP, but there's just something novel about a yaz that can go berzerk 2/3 of the time. |
June 20, 2016 - 11:34am | Plus, a yazirian's battle rage is cumulative with melee weapons and martial arts skills. It's worth the investment. |
June 21, 2016 - 4:03am | The big thing is a reputation, a yaz with a high BR score can gain noteriety quickly. Even the most bad-azz yazirians will think twice before messing with such characters.  |
 June 21, 2016 - 8:00am | Well, you can always have your high-powered PCs meet the Psirens -- see Frontier Explorer issue 12 http://www.frontierexplorer.org/book/psirens-na%E2%80%99dezh%E2%80%99da If you've seen Red Dwarf then you'd know they are nasty aliens. Joe Cabadas |
June 22, 2016 - 2:41pm | Power Creep article
http://frontierexplorer.org/book/frontier-explorer-issue-5 I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
simple sweet and succinct solutions, 