 December 20, 2010 - 4:07pm | Would oort clouds of debris (should they actually exist as hypothesized) cause a problem to leaving a solar system? It seems to me they would. You don't want to be traveling toward jump speed and then be ripped apart by random debris. I think they would have to navigate through and beyond the massive debris field before approaching jump speed, and of course, this would require quite a bit of travel. Of course, solar systems are so close near the center of a galaxy that the debris fields would probably be closer together than they are to their own stars. But then Voyager (V-ger) travelled half way to the next solor system before it stopped transmitting so it obveiously didn't run into any trouble. Thoughts? View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 December 20, 2010 - 5:07pm | I believe that according to the rules that you could reach jump speed long before you reach the mythical oort cloud. also in what plane is the oort cloud? is it a sphere? that far out it'd have to be a serious ammount of material to be spherical I suspect that even if it was a navigational hazard that navigators would add a 1-2% inclination to the course to avoid the ring (if it does exist its most likely in a belt on a particular orbital plane) Question- any idea why the Vger stopped transmitting? Power? will it come back on line when it picks up solar radiation from Alpha Centari? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 December 20, 2010 - 8:44pm | First of all, as Ascent mentioned, the Oort cloud is completely hypothetical, although we believe it exists based on a variety of factors. It has never been directly observed. The Oort cloud is really far out, some where between about 2 to 50 thousand AU (0.03 to one light year) from the Sun. (Pluto's orbit is at 39 AU) As Jedi indicated, you hit jump speed long before you ever even get close to the Oort cloud. It is a generally spherical distribution of debris left over from the formation of the solar system but doesn't have a lot of mass, maybe as little as 5 earth masses or maybe as much as 400 earth masses (roughly the mass of Jupiter). As for a navigation hazard, it would pose even less of one than the asteroid belt which poses basically no hazard at all if you just head off in a random direction. The average distance between asteroids (assuming they all orbited in a ribbon at about 2.7 AU, the middle of the belt) is around 270,000 km. That is based on the estimated number of rocks 1 km or bigger. So there are probably many more smaller ones but they are also spread out over a much larger volume. The Oort could would be the same, There is hundreds of times more mass in the Oort cloud but it is spread over millions (or even billions) of times more volume. So you could have an encounter with an Oort cloud object if you say that Void jumping doesn't work inside gravity wells but it is very, very unlikely. (spoiler: I'm using this in my story) You'd have to be almost on top of it for the gravity well to be significant and the chances of that are miniscule. It should be a plot device only and not anything that ever shows up on a random event table  and then only if you don't allow Void jumping due to deep enough gravity wells. By standard KH mechanics which don't mention that restriction, you'd never encounter the Oort cloud unless you tried to jump out there specifically.Anyway, that's my 2 centicredits worth. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 22, 2010 - 3:29pm | Thanks, Terl. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 March 4, 2012 - 11:34am | Wouldn't also tend to be 'clumpy' like the asteroid belt's, centaurs and kuipers, the trojans, greeks, hills, and other trans-neptunians are expected to be? Seems the further out you go the more 'cloud regions' you are likely to get and the fewer 'disk belt' structures. Also seems to me, though I have seen nothing about it in any far-orbit discussions, that the same boundary & tail effect that the heliopause shows would apply to the distribution (or even availability of stable orbits) at that distance. My take on this is that it leaves room for big gaps you can fly a death-star through. However if a truly thick disk were to be 'out there' and unknown (which would be more likely with the dynamics involved in a different systems layout), it could cause problems. If being undetected till you are on-top of it to boot.... then yeah. Not something you would want to risk flying through under sane conditions, but easy enough to avoid if you know it exists. Random encounter for an uncharted system seems within the scope of plausibility, but once the system has been explored for such outer/far orbit hazards, they would be less likely to be 'hiding' somewhere waiting to be a surprise. Though they could go unnoticed for awhile if noone bothered to survey the far, outer, and even extreme orbits. Three specific, separate, and time consuming necessities in addition to an inner survey, before giving an 'astrogation full seal of aproval' on a system's route safety. Everything as stated by TerlObar still stands as accurate... as I understand it. Just upping the ante with another two centi-cred, for the artifice side of the narrative. Oh humans!!  We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
April 3, 2011 - 4:28am | So the concensus is oort cloud is not a serious navigation hazard but something that could be a plot device. debris that is 5 to 400 earth masses though sounds like a hefty plot device. With that much mass there'd be some gravity and thus it could be an adventure location. What if an invader spent time establishing and advanced depot in the oort cloud. Its close by galactic standards and would allow for re-supply and some repair and could be apart of a siege/attrition strategy. You'd also have to allow for micro jumping in the game too if you used this. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
March 4, 2012 - 11:29am | I would consider it a Serious Navigation Hazard, enough to be looked for in an early survey, but difficult enough to find to be plausibly overlooked, and once found not so much. Something that could be a plot device, definitely. 5 to 400 earth masses spread over a region millions(? billions? really frickin bigs?) of times in volume, though likely 'clumpy' enough in places to allow for small-system-body-associations, and dwarf-planets, that would be interesting enough to be a location, and the focus of the conducted surveys. At an average distance of 1ly from the primary, though short, it's not much of a micro-jump, and due to it's military plausibility would be another reason to find the best real-estate early in survey. but over those distance, it is quite possible to miss the occasional island in the dark. An oort-cloud, being what it is would possibly be more of a hazard, as inclining to avoid a disk isn't possible with a sphere, but the stability of such a sphere-cloud is why it is theoretical. and it would spread that mass over many more times of really big volumes. Both making it more probable to miss the clumpies when traveling through it, and to miss the clumpies when looking for them, than a disk would be... this is on the order of equating finding a needle in a twelve-foot haystack, to finding a needle in the entire twelve acre field. Either way, you are more likely to find the needle stuck in your hand, than you are to see it and pick it up. Is the presence of an oort-cloud important for the astrogator's notes as a navigational hazard around a star that has one? I say emphatically YES, but everyone who makes a living getting into a flimsy air-can and relies solely on plausible probability and their faith in the state of transcosmological sentience to get them to a desired location in one piece..... well, sanity is as sanity does, and they use what data they think is pertinent as much as a set of standard formula and data that is made available. The more accurate that data, the more the risks can be lessened. It is a risk, and a big one, but not one that can be easily quantified because the variables are too large. All of the far and extreme orbit debris would be, and would be extremely difficult [imho] to find and track successfully. This is why I favor a jump-system that assumes jumps are made 'safely' between the far and extreme orbit ranges of the departure and destination, eliminating as much of such unknowns as possible. I would say that a 'safe & insurable' and therefor (legal for common traffic) jump around a system hosting such a cloud would be at the median of the cloud at least, if it is 1ly then so be it. though I might allow a short-jump to make it to more reasonable positions. While a disk would allow for 'safe and insurable' to be made to and from points, above or below the common plane, further in system. This would make placing a deep-space outpost out there another reason for it's importance. I would make such clouds and disks of that type and mass, rare. Counter-point theories to the oorts stating that most of that mass would be unable to maintain a stable orbit at that distance, and the Öpik itself being unconfirmed. Nothing of that says that there couldn't be an undetected smaller clump out there around any given system, even if a larger mass isn't present, ad that I consider very probable. If you just need a few extreme orbit islands in the dark to play on. Others may disagree with my take on it, obviously, as there is much in the conflicting theories to debate on... but I'm not equipped for that debate... take my opinion as it is. I've had similar ideas though... guess I am just warning that whatever you do, it will likely offend someone else's preconceived notions here... that's the problem with theoretical.  Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
 June 10, 2012 - 1:45am | I saw this thread and thought hmmm, how could I put this in a game. Making it somewhat scientifically based, There could be a moderate sized asteroid hanging out in the OORT cloud. That asteroid by some stroke of luck was found by the sathar and is now being used as a forward observation base for SWIII. They could hide out in the black and launch spy craft into one of the main planetary systems, track traffic, or even stage war machines ready to be deployed into the habitated system. Could be a supply base also. Secretly built up, so that when they decide to start the next war, they just have to stop by with troop ships and then launch the attack. |
June 10, 2012 - 2:54am | I saw this thread and thought hmmm, how could I put this in a game. Making it somewhat scientifically based, There could be a moderate sized asteroid hanging out in the OORT cloud. That asteroid by some stroke of luck was found by the sathar and is now being used as a forward observation base for SWIII. They could hide out in the black and launch spy craft into one of the main planetary systems, track traffic, or even stage war machines ready to be deployed into the habitated system. Could be a supply base also. Secretly built up, so that when they decide to start the next war, they just have to stop by with troop ships and then launch the attack. They have been known to leave obelisks on the worlds they wipe out why not an automated listening post? automated makes logistics easier but then power supplies need to be some sort of reactor as solar panels will not collect enough light to keep it going. could be a fussion reactor running on ice with the constituant molecules separated for fuel. However it would be suceptible to detection by energy sensors especially since it will stand out as a hot mote among the frozen wastes of the oort cloud. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 10, 2012 - 7:26am | The main problem I see with using the Oort cloud is that it is way out there, at least 2000 AU from the star (and up to 50,000 to 200,000 AU at the outer edge). In light travel time that is at least 280 hours or more than 10 days. So any information would be at least that old before it was even detected. And the other issue in real life would be finding said object although that's not a issue for the game, you just declare it was found. It's just not something I'd use a lot. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
June 10, 2012 - 9:32am | The main problem I see with using the Oort cloud is that it is way out there, at least 2000 AU from the star (and up to 50,000 to 200,000 AU at the outer edge). In light travel time that is at least 280 hours or more than 10 days. So any information would be at least that old before it was even detected.
Yeah that is out there, the distance involved sounds more like a clandestined operation meeting location. It could work if the sathar had a repair facility out there and launched waves of attacks against strong fixed defenses and pulled back to rearm and repair between waves. The UPF side would have scans of ships and realize from the scans and the time interval that the worms must have a repair facility in the outer system. And send a pair of assault scouts to investigate. And the other issue in real life would be finding said object although that's not a issue for the game, you just declare it was found. It's just not something I'd use a lot. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
June 10, 2012 - 10:18am | For a listening post, the Kuiper belt would be better. It is 30-80 AU so only a few hours light travel distance. The chance of detection is higher but space is still really really big. And it's easier to find a suitable object. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
June 10, 2012 - 6:32pm | As a "secret base" the internal system patrols and naval forces would likely have a few such staging points for a counter-invasion scenario... and of course... pirates and "unaffiliated" colonies may be supported by the clandestine operations for government use... and it is still a great place for an observation point for less time sensitive data collations... especially for pointing eyes outward as a sector survey observatory.... then it is still a far safer idea to navigate your entry-point to be out that far, take the couple few days time required to ask for local traffic and hazard reports, and "fall" center in safely navigated routes under thrust power, or make shorter (but still not quite micro) jumps to a known clear location. Oh humans!! We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".~ anymoose, somewhere on the net... so... if you square a square it becomes a cube... if you square a cube does it become an octoid? |
