Ion engines?

Belaris's picture
Belaris
December 15, 2010 - 4:35pm
I was reading the Knight Hawks expanded rules, and I noticed that it states clearly that the chem drives cannot accomplish an interstellar jump and that the atomic drives can.  However, it does not say if ion drives can.  I did the math and, according to the rules (where jump speed is 12,000,000 kilometers and the ion engines accelerate 10,000 km (1 hex) a turn) and ion drives could attain jump speed with a little over 1000 units of hydrogen (with a max load of 10,000 units in all of the engines).  Could they be allowed to jump, jump with a penalty to misjump (due to a less exact acceleration, less rapid deceleration, etc.), or what?  Thoughts?
Comments:

Red's picture
Red
January 11, 2011 - 9:46am
As a science-phile, I think the reason that the rules regarding ion drives, as stated on page 12 and 13 of the expanded Knight hawks rules, state most ships place chemical engines in the rear of their ship's hull as opposed to placing the ion drives along extended struts, is that ion drives, lack the thrust offered by chemical engines.  Yes, ion drives ultimately give better specific impulse, meaning they can push a ship farther and faster more efficiently, but only after they have had time to build up momentum.  After all, they work by pushing electrically charged atoms or molecules--in essence they are flashlights on steroids.  Also, in the zero gravity of space, where ion engines work, there is little need for the structural heavy reinforcement of the these engines to be built within the hull.  The thin struts can support the "weightless engines, and because the whole of the ship is reaching optimum momentum at the same time, the risk of the pods tearing away from the hull is not a concern.  This saves space for other important systems aboard the ship. But they lack the raw thrust of a chemical engine, so should a ship try to enter a gravitational field emitted by a planet, they could not sustain the ship in flight.  For this reason, ship's kick in the old stand-by at such times, the auxilery thrusters.  By the same token, placing the chemical rockets on these fragile struts and then firing them off in an atmosphere where there is friction, could literally tear the chemical engines off the ship as the chemical rockets achieve huge thrust and jerk forward before the rest of the heavy hull has an opportunity to match the external pod's momentum.

As for atomic engines being placed on struts, I figure that is due to the ease of jettisoning the cores in the case of a meltdown.  And the reason for planets not wanting them used would likely be simply because of the danger of a mishap during their use within that planet's atmosphere.  No planetary government wants a starship to jettison their nuclear cores down upon that government's planet after-all.  The nuclear output we can create today far exceeds that of the atomic bombs of WWII.  Imagine what an atomic engine of the far future, capable of flinging a large starship into the Void would do to a planet if it went.  Thus, most populated planets have laws restricting the use of atomic engines within their atmosphere.  And of course, the struts would need to be much stronger then those used for ion pods for reasons described in the first paragraph, as atomic engines, much like chemical engines, working in an atmosphere with friction and gravity strained the struts due to sudden unequal momentums on the pods and hull and ultimately tore themselves from the rest of the ship as they fired off .  In the end, all things considered, it's both safer and cheaper--at least construction-wise) to go with chemical engines when approaching a planet with gravity or a heavy atmosphere. 

 
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 11, 2011 - 5:19pm
Red wrote:
  Also, in the zero gravity of space, where ion engines work, there is little need for the structural heavy reinforcement of the these engines to be built within the hull.  The thin struts can support the "weightless engines, and because the whole of the ship is reaching optimum momentum at the same time, the risk of the pods tearing away from the hull is not a concern.

 
So a ship could feasibly still place ion engines in the stern (similar to a chemical thruster). In the interest of more space/volume most would opt for the struts, but it's still doable.

On the other hand...atomic drives would feasibly rip themselves free of those same struts due to their "enormous" power. Many of my more recent deck plans featuring atomic driven craft have big bulky super structures connecting the hull to the drives (which can still be jettisoned, mind you...the connections are simply much larger).
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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Red's picture
Red
January 13, 2011 - 8:43am
Shadow Shack wrote:
Red wrote:
  Also, in the zero gravity of space, where ion engines work, there is little need for the structural heavy reinforcement of the these engines to be built within the hull.  The thin struts can support the "weightless engines, and because the whole of the ship is reaching optimum momentum at the same time, the risk of the pods tearing away from the hull is not a concern.

 
So a ship could feasibly still place ion engines in the stern (similar to a chemical thruster). In the interest of more space/volume most would opt for the struts, but it's still doable.

On the other hand...atomic drives would feasibly rip themselves free of those same struts due to their "enormous" power. Many of my more recent deck plans featuring atomic driven craft have big bulky super structures connecting the hull to the drives (which can still be jettisoned, mind you...the connections are simply much larger).

Sure, I see no reason an ion drive could not go into the stern of the hull itself, so long as the financiers and crew were okay with the fact that they would be building a larger craft that would act, space-wise, as a smaller craft.  It's a very inefficient use of space though.  Ion engines would require much more space then chemical engines.  You are squeezing that whole external pod inside the ship after-all, and still having to make room for the chemical engines and fuel tanks.  Remember, ion engines don't work well in gravity situations, so you still need something with heavy "thrust".  

The ship would most likely need to be a big ship for this kind of placement to work. Perhaps something like the Battlestar Galactica, with it's big oversized stern, allowing for both kinds of drives in the same area, thus freeing external pods for either atomic drives or other things like hanger bays in the case of the Galactica.  And like the Galactica, those are the kind of struts, "big and reinforced", I see you needing for atomic drives that functioned inside a gravity pocket.  

Now obviously, this is just my interpretation based on physics, the rules do not stipulate this and there is nothing to say that in the future, ion drives have not been made smaller and perhaps even with more thrust.  Though I don't see how the laws of momentum would change much.  Still, thats the fun of sci-fiWink
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Gilbert's picture
Gilbert
January 13, 2011 - 5:13pm
  I always thought Ion engines had some kind of reactor to produce the amount of energy needed to make the feasible that is why they are on struts.

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
May 23, 2011 - 12:07am
Quote:
I did the math and, according to the rules (where jump speed is 12,000,000 kilometers and the ion engines accelerate 10,000 km (1 hex) a turn) and ion drives could attain jump speed with a little over 1000 units of hydrogen (with a max load of 10,000 units in all of the engines).  Could they be allowed to jump, jump with a penalty to misjump (due to a less exact acceleration, less rapid deceleration, etc.), or what?
Belaris

Quote:
 jump speed can be attained at ADF:1 in 200 turns (12M kph = 1200 hexes per hour = 200 hexes per ten minute game turn), thus using only 200 units of L-Hyd per ion drive to reach jump velocity (and another 200/drive at the other end to decelerate back down to zero).
Shadow Shack


  Yeah, this works... without doing the math myself... with an increased misjump factor, and a necessity to target the destination system a little further out in orbit, to account for deceleration time, sure...
   I leave the technical details to someone with an unboxed slide rule, mine is in the shop for recalibration.
   I like adjusting drives for some Jump-Range variation, as such I would halve the Jump Range of Ions, but increase the jumps/per overhaul by four or more.
 (aren't there rules on all this somewhere? I have seen several house-rule variants, and canon-clarification essays, and don't remember which set came from where, atm.)

   I wouldn't bother with Chems, even though it is possible in theory... as mentioned it would take a lot of fuel on a huge ship, to reach that all important 'mission ratio' factor... and a smaller ship could do the same mission with Ions, or possibly even Atomics.
   In my own interpretation it is the refinement of Atomics that opened the Frontier to it's first era of exploration, and the refinement of Ions that (has just recently) opened it to it's second (current) era. Chems are antiquated relics, useful for maneuver thrust, the in-system yachts of wealthy eccentrics, and race-rocket sportsters.

   Not to say I don't appreciate a well ordered and easy to comprehend, 3d-movement vectored-thrust chem-rocket mechanic compatible with SF... I DO!Cool
I would just put an Ion Engine powered Drive, or Atomic Rocket Drive, on that sportster... for interstellar use. (and in favor of a clarified ADF/MR varient, that allows a little less abstraction, and a little more gradation.)
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

Putraack's picture
Putraack
May 25, 2011 - 12:58pm
SFAndroid wrote:
Has anyone done any research on the "Slingshot Effect"?

I wonder how much speed could be gained by swinging out of a gravity well, either terrestrial or stellar.  Is this something that in the SF tech-level, would be possible?


I'd like to revisit this, if possible. I'm (over-?)thinking a lot about accelerating to the Void and the like. If a ship leaves an orbital station, it should be able to use a nearby planet or moon to assist in the acceleration to 0.01c, right? Same for decelerating from the Void. This assumes, of course, that the ship's inbound/outbound course to the Void takes it near a friendly body. Perhaps there would be times when convergences of planets might allow a significant decrease in travel time for some system routes.

Without gettting into the mechanics, perhaps an Astrogation roll to decrease intra-system travel time by 2d10%? If one knows that a given system has more bodies than average, the roll could be made easier?

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
May 25, 2011 - 9:37pm

   I think you technicaly have something there, on all counts... though you may think you may be over-thinking... the physics are sound... but I don't know what speeds can be expected from those maneuvers.
  Additional complexity to the abstragation checks need to be careful, not everyone wants to feel like they have to be an astrophysicist, in order to play one. Though some might like a little more granularity to their flight options. Finding a way to increase or decrease time, directly from the degree of success or failure of the required check, would probably be best.
  



  Further complexities to over-thinking the 0.01c requirement do rise, if you take into account a simple question, with complex ramifications... "To engage the void-drive, and skip the physics restraint of 3d-space, a ship must achieve 0.01c, in relation to what?"... this is significant because of the diverse speeds at which all intra-galactic objects are traveling, as well as the speed of the galaxy itself in relation to everything out side of it. You can't measure the speed of an object by itself, it has to be measured relative to something else (this was one of Einstein's realizations).

The Earth is spinning at 0.5 km/sec.
The Earth revolving around the Sun at 30 km/sec.
The Solar System moving around the Milky Way at 250 km/sec.
The Milky Way Galaxy moving in the Local Group 300 km/sec.
The Local Group is moving around the local Supercluster at 250km/sec.
Local supercluster moves toward both the "Great Attractor" and the Shapely Super Cluster at 700km/sec.

  Total potential of a vector-zeroed linear-focused inertial-halt, of a person standing on the earth, at any given moment or location, exceeds 1500km/sec. (0.005c, half the jump requirment.)
Light Speed is 299792.5km/sec.
 0.01c is 2998km/sec.

No you were not over-thinking the 0.01c physics... THAT is over-thinking the physics... Laughing

 (Check my math, not my insanity... Foot in mouth I checked it several times, and I think my calculator is either broken, or it doesn't like theoretical insan... um... theoretical physics...)
  My question is, does that mean that half of the universe could void-jump spontaneously, having already achieved a potential in excess of the 0.01c requirement, all it needs is a sudden tachyon spike large enough, and oops it's gone? I would find tha*poof*...
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

Putraack's picture
Putraack
May 26, 2011 - 12:17pm
thespiritcoyote wrote:

   I think you technicaly have something there ...
  Additional complexity to the abstragation checks need to be careful, not everyone wants to feel like they have to be an astrophysicist, in order to play one. Though some might like a little more granularity to their flight options. Finding a way to increase or decrease time, directly from the degree of success or failure of the required check, would probably be best.
  

Yeah, that's pretty much all that I am looking for, just a way to introduce a little variability in the system-transit element.

Quote:


[snip]
No you were not over-thinking the 0.01c physics... THAT is over-thinking the physics... Laughing


Quite.

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
May 26, 2011 - 9:51pm
Foot in mouth but it did come up as a question during one of my games... along with the idea of 'inertial break-falling' into a trailing star, as opposed to accelerating to meet it... this was all done in some sci-fi series, I don't remember which one.


  Yeah, further reflection, I think I would keep it on the astrogation check, and adjust time by x%/difference in success or failure. The details depend if you let skills exceed 100% and/or keep a 98-00 auto-failure/critical failure.
  The degree of time saved/lost should be on some slope, such that a diff of 100 is 20% and a difference of 10 is only 1%.
  Critical success(01)/failure(00) would be better as a 2d10+10 % adjustment, plus the normal risks of miss-jumping, or bonuses of perfect-timing, involved with the skill.
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

Putraack's picture
Putraack
May 28, 2011 - 6:11am
Good point. I'm thinking in terms of Savage Worlds rules, since that's what I am warming up to use next SF game. Over there, if one beats the target number, then there can be extra effects.

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
May 28, 2011 - 8:26am

  Then that would translate very well into to that mechanic, Alternity, and Marvel, have that kind of structure also.
  Percentile based systems like Star Frontiers, and Rifts, are often very adaptable to the gradient success/failure effects... Success based systems like WoD and Shadowrun are also inherently geared for that effect...  it's the D20 systems I have the most difficulty attempting such mechanics with... The newer ones can do it well enough though.

Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?

Gilbert's picture
Gilbert
June 1, 2011 - 4:32pm
  I am sure you could get away with Aerobraking, just might want to use a gas giant that will give you a much larger atmosphere to go through and then finish up with orbital breaking. I think that will slow you down.

thespiritcoyote's picture
thespiritcoyote
June 2, 2011 - 10:46am
   I don't think the SF ships could handle the stress of a "Destiny Maneuver" without being crushed, but "orbital transfer decelerations" are probably easy enough, over the distances involved.
   Not sure how much of an advantage can be expected, but up to around 20% seems fair for the game purpose, with all factors abstracted.

  I may have been misunderstood with the 'inertial break falling' toward a different star system... it was described in some scifi-novel, idr what it was.
  The concept took advantage of the speeds of the galactic rotation and some such...  suddenly setting inertia to a zeroed-point and letting another trailing star 'catch up' with you. Not a fast way to travel, but with the handwaved inertia-brakes, the idea was plausible... not likely... but plausable.
Oh humans!! Innocent We discover a galactic community filled with multiple species of aliens, and the first thing we think about is "how can we have sex with them?".
~ anymoose, somewhere on the net...

so...
if you square a square it becomes a cube...
if you square a cube does it become an octoid?