 November 29, 2010 - 12:12am | Rules say: A humma can spring up to 25 meters horizontally from a standing start and, if he lands within 2 meters of an opponent, come to a dead stop and make a melee attack against the opponent, who cannot strike back. Issue is, no matter what system you use, side A/ side B of the AD rules or a simplied D&D style combat round how is it that an opponent doesn't get an attack? With side A then Side B there would be clear opportunity for an attack I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 29, 2010 - 12:27am | If the player was on the recieving end of this it would not be very fun likewise a party of players using this to prevent NPCs from ever striking back would not be fun for the GM I think I'd prefer a rule of a humma has 25m of jumping that they can do before and after a melee attack on their turn and as long as the humma moves out of reach of the opponent the opponent cannot strike back on the humma's move. Thus a humma can move into and out of the melee reach of an opponent however the opponent still can respond on his move. clever use of the ability may garner the humma attacks that go unanswered but there is no situation where a character cannot attack another character that is standing right next to him. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 29, 2010 - 4:55am | You have to be prepared to attack a Humma springing. Think of it more like the old D&D suprise rules. If you see the Humma coming and you happen to have a spear handy it can get ugly if you set the spear for the charge. If you don't see it coming or have nothing on hand to react with to it the Humma is going to come out you with such force that they will have you. You have to figure 90kg or about 198lbs coming at you at 15kmh or about 9mph will knock you on your posterior. If you doubt me get a large breed dog excited to see you & let me know how that works out. If you happen to have some sort of a firearm and are prepared, you can pull the old Indiana Jones vs. the Cairo Swordsman routine. -LZ |
November 29, 2010 - 6:15am | You have to be prepared to attack a Humma springing. Think of it more like the old D&D suprise rules. If you see the Humma coming and you happen to have a spear handy it can get ugly if you set the spear for the charge. If you don't see it coming or have nothing on hand to react with to it the Humma is going to come out you with such force that they will have you. You have to figure 90kg or about 198lbs coming at you at 15kmh or about 9mph will knock you on your posterior. If you doubt me get a large breed dog excited to see you & let me know how that works out. If you happen to have some sort of a firearm and are prepared, you can pull the old Indiana Jones vs. the Cairo Swordsman routine. -LZ I agree with the large breed dog illustration except I worked with a dog trainer and I learned tools for the situation you describe. I'm generally the one who knocking the dog of balance and in a way that tells him I'm in control and he will stay down. But thats not the point here. However, I was currious about how people would handle it within the rules or by house rules. the special ability description says they make the charge and if they land within 2m they get an attack and the opponent does not. My problem with that is that the AD turn sequence of side A side B would clearly allow the opponent to get an attack in or if you went with a the simplified D&D style turn sequence (roll initiative and every one go in turn) and the opponent has not yet gone in the round then he will move after the humma and why should he be forced to attack someone else instead of the humma next to him? I'm just unclear as how to handle this. It doesn't make any sense to me and I think that is rooted in the lack of play test that went into Zebs guide. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 29, 2010 - 6:55pm | It never came up in our games because we never had Zebs Guide back then. I would say if someone really jumped 25m and successfully hit you while landing, then you'd be stunned or knocked prone or something along those lines. "Can't strike back" is very weird indeed. |
 November 29, 2010 - 8:03pm | Perhaps the character struck has to roll a RS check and if he succeeds he can attack the Humma normally, otherwise he is momentarilly stunned allowing the Humma to spring away untouched. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
 November 30, 2010 - 12:52pm | I'm with adamm, never had Zeb's guide or Humma until recently. However, here's how I'd play it. 1) If you just wanted to take it at face value, I'd say the "can't attack back" is for that single round and is due to surpise. You weren't expecting the attack and weren't prepared to repsond to it. 2) I'd only allow this to completely work if the Humma had initative. If the target has initative, he gets to move after the humma and can therefore move out of the two meter radius (unless he's pinned in a corner) and the humma doesn't get to attack. The "target", however, can then blast the humma at point blank range with his pistol  .3) I wouldn't allow the humma to jump back out of range on the same turn. So if he's still around on the next turn you can smack him. Of course he could jump again on the next turn, however, so it's the same effect. 4) I would only allow this in an outdoor setting or some large open space with high ceilings. The jump has to be ballistic so the humma is going to need some headroom or is going to smack into the ceiling (treat as falling damage where the distance fell is equal to the distance of the planned jump. It takes a lot of force to launch one of these guys). I'd say that the headroom needed is equal to 1/4 to 1/2 the distance to jump plus you need to account for clearance of obstacles in the way that he's jumping over. So if you're making the full 25m jump you need at least 6m of clearance (although probably more like 8-10m) and that is if you are in an open area. If there is an obstacle that you are trying to jump over that is either really close to you or really close to your target, you need a higher ballistic arc and even more clearance and that will probably limit your jump distance. Of course this brings up the issue of could a humma really jump 25 m from a dead stop? I'm not a biologist but it seems a little long to me. The red kangaroo, which is on average about 75% the size of a humma can leap 9m. Typically, bigger bodies would tend to be able to jump shorter distances but maybe the increased muscle mass could allow longer jumps. I'd be more than willing to accept 20m so I guess 25m isn't that much of a stretch. We just assume that Humma have even more massive leg muscles than kangaroos. And this jump distance should be modified by the gravity of the system just like the normal jumping and falling rules. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 30, 2010 - 2:23pm | Great thoughts guys. Another idea is to make a "Cinematic Unarmed Combat Maneuver" and add it to the table. In the entry list different leap distances by race (so it's not just a maneuver for humma's) Also, like almost any distance type attack, you could allow the target a RS check for (suggestions) 100% avoidance, 1/2 damage if hit or -20 to the attack. I personally wouldn't mind if we re-wrote the entire humma entry. Maybe that's the goal already? |
 November 30, 2010 - 5:48pm | 25m (Nearly 80 ft), I consider to be ridiculous anyway. I would translate that to 25 ft or 8m. Kim Eastland seemed to favor making the characters into superbeings over a true hard sci-fi campaign. That said, I would consider "the opponent does not get an attack of opportunity" to be a rule, not merely a likelihood. Though I have to agree that it could only happen if the Humma has initiative. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 November 30, 2010 - 6:06pm | A 25-foot leap may well have been what was intended, but the book was rushed, someone forgot to do the math, and what's printed was what ended up. Least, I hope so. A single giant leap of 75-80 feet(ten 2.5m squares, if one uses the grid) does seem a little excessive. Either way, I also agree that the Humma should at least win initiative, if not surprise, to use the spring charge. " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
November 30, 2010 - 9:39pm | To sum up: Most feel that the no strike back should be limited to if the humma has initiative and or surprise. 25m is a bit much and 25 ft or 8m was probably a better number and may even have been what was intended There is a feeling that the no strike back is more a function of surprise or stun What we have evolving here is even more of a limit on this special ability in favor of something that makes more sense. That said I think that we should give the humma something more on this attack since its limited to just when he has initiative. Something like he gets to include his punch score in the melee attack (if its a melee weapon) or he gets double his punch score if its just a slam with his tail also the rules say that a creature gets one hand to hand attack for every arm leg pair of appendages it has. Since the humma's arms are unsuited to hand to hand fighting but his tail is how many hand to hand attacks would you give him? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 1, 2010 - 2:46am | Two kicks and a tail slap. Anyone think the spring charge should cost the Humma some fatigue as well? " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
December 1, 2010 - 6:26am | Something like he gets to include his punch score in the melee attack (if its a melee weapon) or he gets double his punch score if its just a slam with his tail I thought you could already add your punch score to melee weapon damage..... |
December 1, 2010 - 7:57am | 2 kicks OR tail slap. The tail is used to support the body while kicking, the feet/legs support the momentum of the tail whipping around. (One pair is equal to 1 leg and 1 tail OR 1 leg and 1 leg.) Leap Attack This amazing attack truly puts the humma at a melee advantage. From a dead stop they can leap up to 8m and land on or next to a foe making two kick attacks or a single tail slap. On a successful hit the humma can either choose to cause damage or knock the target prone. The target may make a RS check to avoid a knock down or take 1/2 damage. In cases of surprise the target does not make a RS check. Note that a leap attack may incur an opportunity of attack if they are adjacent to a foe. |
December 2, 2010 - 5:51pm | No, I don't think there needs to be more added to the Humma's special abilities. Their kick attack and round robin abilities are significant. Yes, I think punching score should be added, since kicks and tail attacks are just extensions of the Humma's strength. But not doubling the punching score. It's a matter of momentum causing much of the damage. Their punching score represents their own power behind it. Anyone think the spring charge should cost the Humma some fatigue as well? Not really. The humma are built for hopping. The round robin attack, however, is a different story. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
December 2, 2010 - 7:55pm | Actually, Zeb's Guide already has a fatigue limit: "A Humma can continue this 25-meter spring for up to 10 turns, but then gets winded and cannot use it again for at least 30 minutes." Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 2, 2010 - 11:11pm | Actually, Zeb's Guide already has a fatigue limit: "A Humma can continue this 25-meter spring for up to 10 turns, but then gets winded and cannot use it again for at least 30 minutes." A derr, a derr, a derr, I just now saw that line in Zeb's. Thanks, Tom. " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
December 3, 2010 - 12:49pm | I've mulled over this topic now for awhile I have a problem with limiting the spring charge to only when the humma have surprise or initiative as that can effectively kill the carousel or round robin attack. Also if the humma has just jumped and landed then I dont think he can use his legs for an attack in the same instant so I propose its a tail attack for the spring charge. He can not spring charge and use two unarmed attacks from his legs. I guess I'm ok with the speed and suddenness of the spring charge is such that a victim is unable to respond to it but I'd also rule that if the charge was done through the field of fire of someong waiting to shoot at anything passing through that feild of fire that the charge would be too fast for the humma to be shot. As for the limit on the number of turns a humma can jump - I'd almost perfer a STA determined length instead of the arbitrary 10. maybe (STA/10)+3 or 4 as that would give a starting character close to 10 but they'd still have room to develop it. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 3, 2010 - 2:31pm | I've mulled over this topic now for awhile I have a problem with limiting the spring charge to only when the humma have surprise or initiative as that can effectively kill the carousel or round robin attack. Maybe rule that once the first spring charge succeeds that the Humma have to re-roll initiative? Also if the humma has just jumped and landed then I dont think he can use his legs for an attack in the same instant so I propose its a tail attack for the spring charge. He can not spring charge and use two unarmed attacks from his legs. A tail attack in conjunction with the spring charge works. I agree that Humma shouldn't be allowed to use unarmed leg attacks after having made his spring charge. I guess I'm ok with the speed and suddenness of the spring charge is such that a victim is unable to respond to it but I'd also rule that if the charge was done through the field of fire of someong waiting to shoot at anything passing through that feild of fire that the charge would be too fast for the humma to be shot. How about allowing the person or persons targeted by a spring charge an RS check to fire at them while charging? As for the limit on the number of turns a humma can jump - I'd almost perfer a STA determined length instead of the arbitrary 10. maybe (STA/10)+3 or 4 as that would give a starting character close to 10 but they'd still have room to develop it. Absolutely. " 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
December 3, 2010 - 2:38pm | @ Will: concerning the RS check to shoot at a spring charging humma that is charging you how about an opposed RS check each side rolls d100 and adds RS score, highest total wins though it seems the humma should get an extra +10 or +20 to ensure they succeed more often then not I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 4, 2010 - 11:42am | @ Will: concerning the RS check to shoot at a spring charging humma that is charging you how about an opposed RS check each side rolls d100 and adds RS score, highest total wins though it seems the humma should get an extra +10 or +20 to ensure they succeed more often then not That would work even better; it would give the poor schmuck being charge at least a fighting chance to nail his Humma attacker. (Damn, boy. You done went, and used my favorite Trek line as a sig. I like.  )" 'Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death." |
 December 5, 2010 - 10:47am | I'm having trouble with interpreting the 25m as a typo and changing it to 25ft. In a ten turn charge that only totals to 250 feet. A human can sprint further than that in one minute (10 turns). I think we are mixing a leap and a charge. I think the designers were trying to make a charge out of successive leaps and the two are not jive-ing well. Thus they put 25m to get the total charge distance they desired but mucked up the leap. I'm guessing in a charge the leaps are not one every 6 seconds, but one every second so the Humma would have to choose to continue charging and gain the extra distance that turn or come to a stop and attack if he only used say 1 seconds worth of the turn in as leaping. -iggy |
December 6, 2010 - 4:54pm | Wow, that just gave me a significant "duh" moment. Is iggy the only one of us with a brain?  However, that said, we also have to consider recovery time. The Humma also has to be ready to make another attack in the next turn, so they would have to cover that distance a little faster than you think. I like where jedion and Will are going with that part of the discussion too. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
December 6, 2010 - 5:38pm | Wow, that just gave me a significant "duh" moment. Is iggy the only one of us with a brain? It comes from being told to, "Pull The Switch!" so much and knowing when it is best to screw up and not pull the switch. Stupid Mad Scientists! -iggy |
December 6, 2010 - 7:26pm | Ok here we go again; using standard game modifiers to try to describe this special attack: humma spring charge: 25 meters (Note: according to the table of range weapon modifiers and the tables on creatures it qualifies the humma as a slow moving creature: an average slow moving creature is 30 m/turn), if Surprise is a factor the humma automatically covers the distance and makes a melee attack and defender counts as stunned +20 and counts as attacked from behind +20 (note he's not attually attacked from behind but counts as if he is) for a total of +40 on surprise round attack and defender is stunned remainder of turn (no attack back by the defender), they are now in melee and all rules apply. If no surprise the humma and defender have opposed RS check (each roll d100+RS higher number wins) 1. If humma wins then he covers the distance and make an attack and the defender counts as stunned +20, if the attack succeeds the defender is stunned remainder of turn (no attack back by defender), they are now in melee and all rules apply. 2. If the defender wins the RS check and already has a gun drawn then the humma covers 1/2 the distance and the defender gets a shot (range 13m- range modifier applies) Humma counts as both dodging -20 and running -10 (due to speed and hopping) If shot hits the humma's advance is halted an he loses his attack, they are not in melee 3. If the defender wins and does not have a gun drawn OR has missed his shot with a drawn gun then the humma covers the distance and makes a melee attack but the defender counts as dodging -20. if the attack hits the defender must make a STA check or be stunned the remainder of the turn (no attack), otherwise if he makes his STA check he can fight back (presuming he didn't get a shot with a gun), they are in melee and melee rules apply. The above sounds a bit complicated to me but I think it might be a fair way to handle this for both the humma character and the defending character. One other thing occurs to me- someone who has declare that they are aiming at an area in case an opponent moves through it can only take a shot with a successful RS check. due to the erractic and sudden movements of the humma. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 6, 2010 - 7:33pm | That works for me. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 7, 2010 - 6:46pm | That works for me too. It makes a whole lot of sense. While it's complicated at first, a person who deals with Humma regularly in his game should be old hat after just one adventure. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
December 7, 2010 - 7:08pm | The important thing is that I think its fair with surprise the humma will nail the target but good but the other circumstances give a target a chance and yet the humma isn't seriously diminished in this special ability. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 7, 2010 - 8:21pm | Not too off-topic; jedion, you and I both play 4e... wouldn't these types of abilities work well as power cards? It changes how SF works very little, I'm not suggesting d20, just writing out attack cards. For example Spring Charge Standard Action Target: One creature Attack: 1/2 STR or DEX + 10% per Level in Unarmed Combat Hit: 1d10 + Punching Score, target makes a RS check or falls prone Leaping Spring Burst of Forkic Standard Action Target: Each creature in 2m radius Attack: 1/2 STR or DEX + 10% per Level in Unarmed Combat Hit: Target(s) make a RS check or falls prone |
December 8, 2010 - 9:20am | I think having the rule to cover something like the spring charge written out on a piece of paper/ index card is a good idea. but most special abilities dont need that. Personally, when I really get to play and not GM D&D (I didn't do this with 3.5 and I currently GM 4e) I like to create a spell book for my spell caster whether its index cards with each spell on them and hole punched in the corner and put on a metal ring or on a sheet of paper with spell book written across the top. The point is that I have what I need with my character sheet and play does not slow down while I look up the spell to double check what the friggan DC will be for the target to save or to consult how much damage will happen. Thats just how I roll- if I was to play a humma I'd have a card with all the rules covering the spring charge (since there is enough to this spec ability to warrent it- others dont need a card), clipped to my character sheet. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
