 November 24, 2010 - 11:35pm | Is it appropriate to use zoological classifications from Earth like mammal, amphibian, reptile, etc? for creatures in the Frontier or any other planet? or might it not be appropriate to make up new classifications when designing a new planet/ setting? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 24, 2010 - 11:54pm | An interesting point, here's a step further a little off topic but related. I realize that for language simplicity and game continunity everything was presented in straight forward minimal jargoned english. Since there is no know connection between the humans of the Frontier and Earth should we use terms like North, South, East, West, Bow/Fore, Stern/Aft, minutes/seconds/hours, etc. Terminology that we see in Earth terms. Up, down, sideways, adjacent, diagonal, left, right, hot, cold, positive, negative are kind of universal regardless of the word used to describe them so they probably wouldnt apply. just something to mull over while enjoying turkey day |
 November 25, 2010 - 12:04am | I say yes and here's why. If you invent a jargon, you then have to define it and define the terms that define those and so forth. Such a system is not readily comprehensible to someone not steeped in the jargon you've invented. Thus it creates a barrier to adoption and understanding. By using the language we're familiar with, it is easier to pick up and understand and easier to play. I started to do this with a project I was working on, just dealing with time. I set up a different time system (25 hour day, 100 minutes per hour and 100 seconds per minute) since it was not on earth and therefore would not have the Babylonian time system we use. After working it out, it turned out that one of their 'seconds' equaled 0.45 of our seconds. Then I realized that that changed the speed of light (and I had to define the standard length, i.e what a meter was) as well as the definition of a light year. At that point I realized that maybe I didn't want to do that as it wouldn't make sense to the readers. There are some things that you could do differently but unless you really need to, I'd stick with earth standard terms. Anyway that's my 0.02 credits worth. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 November 25, 2010 - 5:03am | I agree with TerlObar. If one change is made many must be made, and the result is less accessibility for new recruits. In addition, there appears to be an implied conection to earth in the names of ships and some other subtle clues shattered around the canon. Just look at SFKH0 Warriors of White Light. The Assault Scout is named the Osprey. If humans have a memory of an Earth animal then there is a connection in my opinion. Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
November 25, 2010 - 6:45am | @ Jacobsar- I generally interpret the ship names like Osprey, Falcon, and Leo as an implication that humans took flora and fauna from earth with them when they ventured out into the universe. RE: maintaining accessibility- While I agree that this is an important principle it just seems odd that a mammal will have evolved on another planet. Its entirely likely that "mammals" form planet X, while having fur actually lay eggs instead of bearing live young. Purhaps the terms to use would be Reptillian, Mammalian, Avian, amphibian but paired with the name of the planet that they are native too ie. Ifshna Avain, Clarion amphibian, Laco Reptillian etc. That then allows you to define what a reptillian from Laco is like and even change some of its features. The word reptillian gives you an overall flavor and picture of what the animal should be like but some features can be changes and defined for reptillians in general from this particular planet- for instance Laco Reptillian may give birth to live young instead of laying eggs. Despite earth being outside the setting I consider Terran Zoology and Botany to be viable fields of study in the Frontier Particularly on Minotaur since it was the first human colony in my version of the Frontier and the gene bank from earth is an important asset of the genetics department of the University of Minotaur. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 25, 2010 - 9:40am | How about just Mammilian Frontiericus, Reptilian Fronterian, Avian Frontarian, and Mammalian Terran, reptilian terran, Avian terran. That way it differentiates between frontier, and terran species without having too many classifications "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
 November 25, 2010 - 9:56am | The meaning of any sounds resembling words have a translation. I will try to explain in a monet. Just like in other languages such as the German word Mutter in English means mother, the word kapla in Klingon means loosely good luck or a parting greeting, and the word rojo in Spanish means red. Even the name of the Yazirian race could be translated as monkey in earth language; however, since it is a formal name it is kept the same because it is a proper name of the race. The use of proper names is kept the same regardless of what someone desires to translate it to in English. When dealing with words the translation is what it is in your language, so, I would say it is OK to use earth language words to classify anything. I just put in the scenario for those who have a question about it is, "It has been translated so you can understand it." I do not see any problems with using earth laguage names for anything for one big reason, I will not know what you are talking about until I translate it into my language that I understand and then you get the standard of terms in the language back to your original, so, I do not think it pays to make up new stuff unless it is a hook in the scenario to have a language barrier in the game. It could be fun, but you would have to make up a your language to earth language dictionary. Good luck with that. I would just keep it simple and go for the fun and stay away from too many fun killing barriers; however, the language barrier can be made as a "you do not know what he said and your polyvox needs five more days to have a understandable translation." this can make it interesting for the players to maybe attempt on their own to get the meaning of the language. Good movie to see for an example would be Enemy Mine, and Robinson Crusoe on Mars has a language barrier. I know there are other movies to see but these are my favorites. |
November 25, 2010 - 10:14am | I agree with Gil, that Star Frontiers should just use the language we are familiar with with the *wink, wink* towards the classic "this is all translated from Pan gal". After all lets not fall into the Humanocentric trap that every major achievement in SF has humans at its core. Pan Gal might easily be a trade language developed by the Dralasites, or Vrusk or if w00t had his way might be binary. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
November 25, 2010 - 4:27pm | Good feedback on a good discussion, not that I had not already come to the conclusion that it was translated from Frontier speak, but just wanted to know what people thought about it. |
November 25, 2010 - 4:30pm | The rules use zoological terms in their creature descriptions so I think it will be just fine to use those. But it wouldnt hurt to make up some new ones for alien spieces that need there own unique categories like that those half plant half animal creatures. |
November 25, 2010 - 6:46pm | Well, the intro to the game says that they are not Earth decended humans. In fact, it's the first sentence on the inside of the front cover of the Basic Rules book: "Near the center of a great spiral galaxy. where stars are much closer together than Earth's sun and its neighbors, a Human race developed. They were not identical to the Humans of Earth, but they were not very different, either." In light of that, I've always take the parallel evolution aspect. I prefer to have them unconnected to Earth. However, a lot of people seem to want them to have come from Sol system. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
November 25, 2010 - 7:29pm | ... what do people here think about the human connection between the Frontier and Sol. Did you think it was a parallel evolution of humans like in the new BSG, I cannot comment on the new BSG as I've never even seen one episode since I wont/dont pay for cable or dish or whatever I absolutely never ever bought the parallel evolution of humans- the odds are just too way out there. So my thinking was always that if parallel evolution is not possible then they must ultimately come from Earth some way, some how. That plays out a number of ways: 1. Earth's location is known and communication happens between the Frontier and earth- that doesn't seem to fit within the scope of the canon setting IMO 2. Earth's location is known but it is inaccessable- This option could fit with the canon setting without too much disruption 3. Earth's location is not known and thus there is no communication or accessability- This option also fits into the canon setting with little disruption If you dont buy the parallel evolution take then you have to deal with earth in one of the 3 options above and that will boil down to personal preference. However, I prefer that earth should be in option 3; location unknown and inaccessable since this leaves a mystery that could be solved if the GM is inclined to run that campaign- It creates opportunities for adventure. Plus with Earth out of communication with the Frontier you dont have to deal with what are the political realities of the Earth at the time the game is run - the humans in the Frontier cant communicate with mother earth and thus they just started their own political institutions and went on with life. Why should Earth be in the setting? First off it lets you draw on the rich cultural heritage of the planet. You can then make statements like Yalua the Yazarian is the Napolean of Yazirian History. Everyone will clue in that this particular NPC is one of the great generals of Yazirian history without you having to say so in so many words. You can refer to a peice of yazirian literature as the Beowulf of yazirian literature and everyone begins to clue into to what this bit of back ground fluff is suppose to mean- Its one of the oldest peices of literature that modern yazirian language can be traced to; its an epic poem, about heros that should be larger than life. Secondly, it allows you to use character names and accents from earth for you character Just because you like the name Piere and want to do an over the top French accent for your character. Lets face it there is a lot you can draw on from Earth history, culture and literature. It can be difficult to invent that stuff for the other races and have it sound credible, why would you deep six the rich cultural heritage that humanity has to draw on for the game? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
November 25, 2010 - 9:01pm | In my own campaign, (the timeline is in this forum) Thesius is Earth. After the last war (Actually not so much a war, but the release of the Chimera virus on earth, killing millions, and causing mutagenic changes most of the survivors) Humans almost bit the dust except for the efforts of John Carter of Mars who kept pure strained humans that were in the colonies alive. He eventually retook earth aboard the Thesius The first space battleship (actually a frigate). In his honor the surviving humans of Earth renamed the planet Thesius and signed the Thesian accords, turning over all control of Earth's governments to the colonies or they would have been destroyed (nuked from orbit). After that they eventually did the best that they could to save the planet and eventually made contact with the other races, and the rest is history. This allowed me to tie Gamma world to Star Frontiers, make humans from earth, and eliminate a lot of Pre-Thesian Earth's history at the same time. "Hey guys I wonder what this does"-Famous last words "Hey guys, I think it's friendly." -Famous last words "You go on ahead, I'll catch up." -Famous last words "Did you here that?" -Famous last words |
November 25, 2010 - 11:20pm | You can see episodes online of New BSG at SYFY.com, can get or stream them at neflix, all for little or nothing. I know some here don't like the new BSG but as an digital artist I do love the space battles and visceral camera work. |
 November 26, 2010 - 9:01am | I have always gone for the parallel evolution. This allows me to divorce myself from Earth history and tie-ins. I don't have to keep it all straight. As for Earth names and what not, no one is ever bothered with it. I tend to make up new place names and character names when Earth based tend to feel more human. I myself do not have a scientific problem with parallel evolution. We only have our biology to study here on Earth. We don't know enough yet to rule out parallel evolution. What's to say that mammalian, reptilian, insect, etc known on Earth are a common paths in biological development. That said, I like the variety of alien biology too. So if a new genus of file is needed then we come up with an appropriate name. We also don't know what biological development paths were not followed here on Earth that may have been followed elsewhere. -iggy |
November 26, 2010 - 9:41am | I find that fact that there is a planet named Minotaur as evidence that Greek mytology of Earth is known in the Frontier and that suggest that Earth exists in setting IMO. Also when you add in the odds for parallel evolution of Ospreys, Falcons, Lions, hawks, and swallows the odds get really long. Statistically the odds of parallel evolution are very very long plus you throw in the odds of parallel evolved humans having developed similar/same mythology and were entering the mystic portal of Fantasy Frontiers. Personally I always found the idea of parallel evolution little more than a fantastic hand wave. Its ok for a game that is less focus on hard science (not that Star Frontiers is completely hard science or doesn't have some fantastic elements in the canon) I just find that bit of the canon too fantastic to swallow so I don't but I certainly understand if it is preferable to others. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 November 26, 2010 - 2:23pm | As to the English/Earth names and words in SF: yeah, the game was written for English-speaking humans of Earth, so it has a lot of that in the game for ease of use and reference. And it can easily be claimed to have been "translated from PanGal". I see no real problem with that. You could always create jargon, slang or even full languages that are just different words for the same things, as long as you keep your audience (i.e., the players) well informed. As to using Earth zoological classifications for creatures in the Frontier: Sure, why not, and for the same reasons. If the creature is radically different, and truly doesn't fall into any standard class, then maybe you'd have to create a new class (and order, phyllum, etc.). Of course there are plenty of references in the game already (Volturnian baboon, Volturnian eagle, Tomar's horse, Megasaurus, Queequeg - a reference to Moby Dick, etc.). As to the Earth/Sol - Frontier connection: the line in the Basic Game, "Near the center of a great spiral galaxy. where stars are much closer together than Earth's sun and its neighbors, a Human race developed. They were not identical to the Humans of Earth, but they were not very different, either.", could be interpreted many ways. I for one hold that the humans of the Frontier came from Earth, but long ago in a generational colony ship, with generations of colonists being born, living and dying without ever knowing Earth. As time went on and systems broke down, they lost the ability to communicate with Earth, and even lost the knowledge of exactly how to return... But, whatever suits your own game. :) Long live the Frontier! |
 November 27, 2010 - 2:53pm | Star Frontiers already uses earth-based zoological language, so there's no need to change it. The flavor has already been established. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
 November 28, 2010 - 11:28pm | I disagree with the premise that parrallel evolution could not happen... the periodic table of the elements would not change in such a manner as to cause Chlorine for example to be a life giving gas the same way Oxygen is. It is actually highly likely that any alien species encountered by humans in the future may not look or act exactly like us; they will have the same building blocks to life itself... water, air and sunlight. So Parrallel evolution... is possable.... but then again maybe the Ancients just seeded the Universe with Humans and Drals and Yazarians and Vrusks and bears oh my.... all from one ancient alien source.... The bombing starts in five minutes. |
November 30, 2010 - 6:15pm | Actually, there are creatures on earth living in environments completely alien to the atmosphere we're accustomed to seeing animals live in. From sulfur-rich to carbon-rich to amonia-rich from 600 degrees fahrenheit down to -120 degrees fahrenheit, all having the same DNA base pairs as all other life on earth. I think DNA is the means by which all life would exist. The likelihood of life forming in the universe is already 1 in 8 universes (of the same age), but for two separate strains of life to form (one DNA-based, the other by some other means) would be much, much further out there. The fact that they've found evidence that there is almost certainly algae on an asteroid in the asteroid belt, if it turns out to be true (they're sending a probe), will mean that panspermia is likely fact and will also likely establish DNA as the ultimate factor for life in the universe (algae being DNA-based), assuming the algae is living and not merely preserved. View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
November 30, 2010 - 7:22pm | As to the original Post I think that I have counted most responses we have had so far to be a "Yes It's Appropriate" @Ascent thanks that what I wanted to say too. You worded it better than I could. The bombing starts in five minutes. |
December 2, 2010 - 3:49pm | BTW, although it is a bit off topic, I'm surprised no one has yet brought up non-carbon life. With NASA's recent announcement of arsenic-based bacteria, this makes the possibility of silicon, fluorine, phosphorus-nitrogen, methane or ammonia life forms all the more intriguing. I would say such alternate biochemistry life should indeed use new classifications. Long live the Frontier! |
December 2, 2010 - 4:16pm | Just to set the record straight, it wasn't arsenic based bacteria. It was carbon based bacteria that substituted arsenic instead of phosphorus in the DNA chain. And the arsenic isn't even used in the AGCT portion of the chain, just in the backbone. It was a simple chemical subsitution of elements with almost identical chemial properties. Interesting but hardly a completely different basis for life, it's still the same DNA components. Just my 0.02 centicreds worth. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
December 2, 2010 - 6:16pm | Actually, Gargoyle, I think it is appropriate to the direction that the topic was beginning to turn and the answer to the original question seems to be answered. Yes, Terl, but it completely changes the possibilities as the article indicates, raising other questions. If DNA can substitute out one chemical for another, what other chemicals can it swap out? Also, though substituting, phospherous and arsenic are still chemically different with different atomic structures and neuclear properties, which could allow them to produce wholly different strains. And there's no telling how much that "little" change can produce completely different lifeforms. For example, if you changed out all the human DNA phospherous in the "backbone", would you still have a human or something completely different? Would it even be able to live? How would the property affect the creature's evolution? View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write. "It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi "That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild) |
