 September 22, 2009 - 1:28pm | Reading here and there on this forum, I get the feeling that the pilot skill is often more highly prized and, dare I say, deemed more necessary, then the astrogator skill. I'm too lazy to look it up now, but I even recall a topic in which the astrogator was replaced by navigation buoys and a service. I think this is due in part to the ridiculous prerequisites set forth in the canon rules (but I won't get into that here). In this topic, I will plant some food for thought by demostrating how astrogation may be the single most important skill onboard an interstellar craft. Please note that for the bulk of this article, I assume typical merchant shipping is the primary purpose for interstellar travel. Differences and exceptions of course exist for more speciallized craft such as military and exploration, etc. What does the astrogator do? On board a starship, the astrogator is the one person, more so then any other, that the crew and passengers are depending on to reach their destination. The astrogator is responsible for knowing exactly where the ship is, exactly where it should be, and exactly where it is going to be. To get from star A to star B, you must balance the where you are with the where your are going to be. This means managing the ship's course and speed with exacting detail (I really ought to use my thesaurus more regarding 'exact'). Without the astrogator, we'd fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova, and that would end your trip real quick, wouldn't it? (I love that line!) The astrogator makes void travel possible. You can't get from Madderly's Star to Prenglar without one. But you can make that trip without an engineer, certainly without a gunner, or even (gasp!) without a pilot. After this sentance, you'll discover why. What does a pilot do? In the very basic sense, a pilot steers the ship and makes sure it doesn't run into things. This is very handy when interfacing with a busy spaceport, dodging asteroids (and giant space worms), or escaping from pirates (or Sathar cruisers). But is it really necessary in basic, well patrolled, interstellar travel? Must the pilot's station be manned for the entire acceleration into and decelleration out of the void? I don't think so. Once the astrogator plots the course, the ship is basically on autopilot. Almost anything that a pilot does manually at that point would only cause the astrogator more work. In this sense, the starship pilot is more analogous to the harbor pilot. An important position, to be sure, but not necessary to be aboard during the ship's journey. Once out of the busy terminal areas around a planet, there is very little to run into that's not the astrogator's job to avoid. Contrasting the two skills from this perspective, you can understand why I often make the astrogator the highest ranking individual onboard any starship. By my calculations, for every hour that the pilot is in control of the ship, the astrogator will have control for 20. I look forward to your opinions. The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
 September 22, 2009 - 2:07pm | I won't dispute the importance of the astrogator, clearly it is an important function when you lay it out like that, but could a computer not also do the "math" of the jump? Just playing 'Devil's advocate' here, I think a ship needs the three key positions manned at all times, pilot, astrogator and engineer. For merchants weapons are often not mounted as they enourage others to shoot at them. The pilot needs to be there in case the ship ends up somewhere other than the intended destination or if there is something that forces the ship to stop. Despite your SW references, your statements are very Dune in nature with the concept of the top importance of the navigator. I would have to say that while important, I cannot say the astrogator is more important than the pilot or engineer, I think all three positions are a must and just as important to a ship as each other. "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
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 September 22, 2009 - 3:44pm | What does a pilot do? In the very basic sense, a pilot steers the ship and makes sure it doesn't run into things. This is very handy when interfacing with a busy spaceport, dodging asteroids (and giant space worms), or escaping from pirates (or Sathar cruisers). But is it really necessary in basic, well patrolled, interstellar travel? Must the pilot's station be manned for the entire acceleration into and decelleration out of the void? I don't think so. Once the astrogator plots the course, the ship is basically on autopilot. Almost anything that a pilot does manually at that point would only cause the astrogator more work. In this sense, the starship pilot is more analogous to the harbor pilot. An important position, to be sure, but not necessary to be aboard during the ship's journey. Once out of the busy terminal areas around a planet, there is very little to run into that's not the astrogator's job to avoid. The pilot's not necessary?! God'll get you for that, Walter. :) Even assuming all of that is true, the pilot still gets to fly the ship. That's why I like playing space pilots. I agree as well that the astrogator's job is just as important, and that not too many PCs want to play a 'gator, cos they don't think it's as exciting as playing a pilot, engineer or a gunner. In my humble opinion, of course. Me, that's usually the next skill my pilots pick up after reaching Pilot 2, Astrogation, since it is an important skill, and, more than one astrogator on a ship comes in very handy. Plus, there's a cool factor to that as well.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 September 22, 2009 - 3:56pm | One thing that always bothered me about the astrogation rules is that in the AD rulebook, the description for the Analysis program said that at level six, the program could do virtually any calculation, including theoretical math. Why then, can't a level six Analysis program replace an astrogator? It's expensive, to be sure but is there a reason it can't be done? "Rome didn't build an empire by having meetings. They did it by killing those who stood in their way." |
September 22, 2009 - 5:32pm | No, but maybe organic assistance is still required. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 September 22, 2009 - 8:29pm | One thing that always bothered me about the astrogation rules is that in the AD rulebook, the description for the Analysis program said that at level six, the program could do virtually any calculation, including theoretical math. Why then, can't a level six Analysis program replace an astrogator? It's expensive, to be sure but is there a reason it can't be done? I would say that the analysis program with an astro program (to tell it where all the stars are) could probably plot a jump but and the fecal matter starts to impact the rotary air impellor then even a computer program would be out of its depth. I think that no star liner service would risk a ship on a computer program that having the astrogator would be a mandatory requirement just in case of mis-jumps. I would also say that nobody would risk a multi million $ ship just to save a couple hundred creds /day on a pilot. Ya just never know what could be encountered and if something happens you'll need a pilot. Really the only optional positions are the gunners. Though I've been contemplating a SF version of the Dutch East (or was it West) Indiaman a big ship with good cargo and enough guns to take out a frigate sized pirate. Which would make gunners very needful. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 September 23, 2009 - 4:37pm | There's a certain "feelzgood" factor about portraying the pilot or gunner, moreso for the action junkies. While I won't dispute the importance of an astrogator, and I agree --- it's up there with the most important of jobs (parallel to the engineering team), let's face it: it's the most boring job to get "stuck" with. Why? Because even the short 5 light year jump requires 50 total hours of plotting time, or five days assuming one astrogator and a ten hour shift with ten hours off for sleep. Long story short, no astrogator can outaccelerate jump calculations faster than a ship moving at 1G toward its destination star (which is about 200 ten minute turns {33 1/3 hours} of ADF:1 acceleration to reach jump velocity, going by the velocity published in the KH Campaign Book opening). I won't even get into that 14LY jump between Prenglar and Gruna Garu... Even assuming you have an assistant, you're busy working the entire time --- while the ship is in drydock and everyone else is enjoying some "shore leave" (possibly engaged in an adventure to increase their XP), you're crunching numbers for the upcoming jump. While the ship is being loaded with passengers and cargo, you're crunching numbers for the upcoming jump. While the ship is prepping for take off, you're crunching numbers for the upcoming jump. While the ship is accelerating away from the station for the next few days, you're crunching numbers for the upcoming jump. In short, during every waking hour you're crunching numbers for the upcoming jump. In fact, until that ship enters the void for a few seconds...you're crunching numbers for the upcoming jump. Only after the return to real space does the astrogator get to enjoy any semblance of downtime. That is, of course, assuming once back in real space you're at the destination star. If there's a second upcoming jump, guess what: you're right back to crunching numbers for the upcoming jump. Then there's the possibilty of the computer breaking down...being the LVL:6 computer expert now you're stuck with repair duty, thus delaying some number crunching. It's just not the glamorous sci-fi job that anyone hopes for, but often overlooked for that very reason. But if the players are getting paid per day based on actual duty...well the astrogator stands to make the most cash since he/she will be the one working the most. That Prenglar to Gruna Garu jump is a high dollar operation for such players, long after the pilot and gunner clocks out, long after the engineering team wraps up the overhauls, the astrogator is spending a total of fourteen days crunching numbers for that upcoming jump. So there is a perk behind it. |
 September 23, 2009 - 9:35am | Good reading. :-) This thread really hit me that Astrogators in the Star Frontiers setting are a lot different than other sci-fi settings. Love Live Astrogation! Little off topic; I'm in favor of saving the data for a reciprocal jump (from A to B and back to A) reducing the calc time to jump back - 1/4 original calc time. In one of my SF settings there are Nav Buoy's placed along well-known routes. Ships communicate with the buoy's for assistance in calculating jumps. Makes it difficult for pirates to obtain the same data without infiltrating the buoy network - ships leaving dock are granted a coded key-pair that setups a secure connection, authentication and transport of buoy data (even if a ship is sitting between the freighter and buoy sniffing com-traffic they have to decoded the cryptographic keys). |
September 23, 2009 - 5:19pm | Excellent comments! Here are some follow up questions. Again, assume a commercial ship as opposed to a military or exploration vessel. If you would like to expand into these ship types, just note as such. Since astrogation is so unsexy and the canon rules for jump calculations so fubar, would the game be improved by replacing the astrogator with a computer? Would doing so strengthen the argument for also replacing the pilot and engineer with high level computer programs and computer controlled robots? Assuming that ships are not 100% automated, but still on autopilot once a jump course is plotted, what is your concept of a 'bridge watch'? Would you require a pilot to be present at all times? Would you even require a bological to be on the bridge at all times? Based on starship skill set alone, who is your choice for ship's captain? Does the captain have to have a starship skill? The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
 September 23, 2009 - 5:29pm | it sounds like now days with the airlines. no more flight engineers / navigators. some of the more hightech planes can virtually fly themselves from runway to runway. it is still nice to have a pilot though.... At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
September 23, 2009 - 5:55pm | Astrogation might be unsexy...but having everything automated is even more boring. You really don't need players once you go that route LOL Seriously though, despite how boring a task may be, I think a player would rather do the job than sit idly while letting some hunk of silicon circuitry do the job. Once you hit that point, it's like Aliens: everyone boards the ship, it launches, and it's into the cocoons for the rest of the trip. I can't think of anything less exciting to roleplay. At least during the lengthy hours of astro-plotting, there's a chance that the astrogator might need to be called for action along the way such as an approaching pirate ship troops that need to be fended off, or in SpaceFleet they'll have a gunnery skill that might be called upon when a sathar cruiser drops in on them, there could be a mutiny, etc. Just because a task is boring doesn't mean a GM can't throw some surprise into the mix every now and then. As far as "who is the captain" goes...there is nothing setinto stone here. It can be anything from the highest ranking officer to the actual owner of the ship to the most charismatic crew member. When in doubt, have the party appoint one character as captain. In D&D speak, this is the "caller". |
 September 23, 2009 - 6:28pm | Hmmm. How about some tweeking to the Astrogator skill? Subtract 1 hour per level starting with the second level. Make it worthwhile to pursue that higher education! Level 1 is 10 hours calculation time per LY. Level 2 = 9 hours per LY Level 3 = 8 Hours per LY Level 4 = 7 hours per LY Level 5 = 6 hours per LY Level 6 = 5 hours per LY. Maybe knock off another .5 hours per Astrogation program level. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
September 23, 2009 - 6:02pm | Oh there's a slew of house rules to reduce calculation time. I have a multiple astrogator rule in the House Rules Wiki that can feasibly cut time to less than what is required to accelerate to jump velocity at 1G, having a team working together in overlapping shifts. My formula works best for 2-4 astrogation team members, while more astrogators can cut the plotting time even further, the bell curve just doesn't offer the same benefits for keeping more team members. But hey, if the entire crew opts to learn astrogation for the sake of improving plot times, it works in that regard. If a captain wants to retain a slew of astrogators on his payroll, it works in that regard. It becomes overkill going that route... |
September 23, 2009 - 6:32pm | Based on starship skill set alone, who is your choice for ship's captain? Does the captain have to have a starship skill? New spaceship skill: Starship Captain :-) |
September 23, 2009 - 6:40pm | how about a ship's Woot? At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
September 23, 2009 - 6:50pm | Based on starship skill set alone, who is your choice for ship's captain? Does the captain have to have a starship skill. The captain should have a minimum Pilot skill equal to what the level necessary for his ship's Hull Size(highest Pilot skill in any case), and an Astrogation skill of at least 2-3(both military and civilian, as most military officers on the command track rack up shiphandling and navigation time on the bridge, and most merchant marine captains start off by earning their deck licenses and spending their time honing their shiphandling/navigation skills), plus maybe two levels of another starship skill(most likely engineering, but gunnery works as well). Now, for a total incompetent who got his captaincy by polishing the handle on the Admiral's front door, minimum Pilot skill 2(being too kind), minimum Astro skill 1, or even just the entry level Tech and Computer skills.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
September 24, 2009 - 7:47am | Speaking strictly about civilian craft, my percieved "minimum requirements" for captains --- CHARISMA: The captain is the one delegating authority on the ship, making all the on-the-spot decisions, taking responsibility when things go wrong, etc. Leadership capability is high ranking here. Not so much as to outweigh actual skill mind you, but it's definitely high on the list and certainly of importance. And speaking of skill... SKILL: Possessing some semblence of ships skills certainly helps in the process, after all generating respect from the subordinate officers is more easily accomplished when the guy in charge actually knows what he's talking about. In the end a character with LVL:1 pilot, astrogation, engineering, and gunnery skills would make a far better captain than one who is merely the highest skilled pilot or astrogator or engineer of the batch, simply because that person has a clue about all facets of ship operations. In short, you don't need to possess the ability to bank the craft 30º to port at 2.5G, you only need to know what the effect of that maneuver will do when barking out such a command. In a perfect world, the captain would be capable of any and all ship operations, but given the "reduced skill restrictions" in Warriors of White Light (re: LVL:1 pilot operating an assault scout via reduced performance) it isn't exactly neccesary either. SENSE OF DIRECTION: One who also possesses a sense of business will make a superior captain assuming those first two conditions are, after all what crew will develope confidence in a captain who is going by trial and error, attempting to learn along the way, possibly (or eventually) causing a depletion of funds that results in a lacking ability to pay his pilot, astrogator, etc..? Ideally the owner should possess those three traits, failing that the owner would be wise to seek out such an individual possessing those three traits (or at least the first two assuming the owner is business savvy and travels with the ship, or at least keeps a chartered route). And if a character fulfills those three traits, to make it all come together you need a really cool captain's station on the bridge...  |
September 23, 2009 - 8:26pm | Agreed Will. I didn't post requirements because I couldn't decided on a skill set. :-) Starship Captain sub-skills; Assign KP Kick the dog Yell at the cook Shout Sometimes make sense Ships w00t I wonder what the subskills would be.  |
September 23, 2009 - 9:02pm | Since I been playing with adventures set in different eras of the non-existent time line I've leaned to just having advances in computer code or hardware or even in the physics of void space leading to cutting the computation time for astrogation- drum roll- here comes my house rule for one setting (Warriors of White Light 2) since its 100 years in the future of the original module it takes 1 hour per light year if you have an up to date astro software and hardware - seeing as how I go to work and deal with CRT's and software written in BASIC!!!!!!!!  - I allow for cheap arse freight companies not upgrading there equipment and software cause the old stuff is still working and they rather bend of a dollar to pick up a nickel.but I digress There is anynumber of ways to modify the crappy time requirements for astrogation - allow for purchase of better software that cuts time -nav bouyes - staff the astrogator with an NPC But man I'm with shadow on this dont replace the players with a computer! it sucks in RL and not much fun in game either. I actually like to cut the time to plot a jump and increase the astro gatores responsibilies- communications, scanning, electronic counter measures jamming and defeating jamming. Some of those things could prove vital in combat. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
September 24, 2009 - 5:10am | I actually like to cut the time to plot a jump and increase the astro gatores responsibilies- communications, scanning, electronic counter measures jamming and defeating jamming. Some of those things could prove vital in combat. That is what I tend to do as well. The Astrogator tends to have all the calculations done befor leaving the planet or station that way he/she/it can run all that techy-stuff... Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
September 24, 2009 - 7:57am | I prefer appointing a communications/detection officer (anyone with basic tech and/or computer skills), but with a skeleton crew or any other pinch the astrogator can do those tasks. |
September 24, 2009 - 11:41am | I prefer appointing a communications/detection officer (anyone with basic tech and/or computer skills), but with a skeleton crew or any other pinch the astrogator can do those tasks. thats actually a good position for someone without a star ship skill- they still get to contribute. I had thought of doing a house rule to allow technicians and roboticist to assist an engineer but hadn't decided on anything yets (maybe X # of tech skill levels adds up to a +5% on the damage controll/ repair roll but only 1 5% bonus allowed) but I have needed it so.... I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
September 24, 2009 - 2:47pm | I have no qualms about technicians on larger ships either. In the end, the engineer supervises repairs and work orders and is not neccesarily involved in the actual work (with exception to smaller craft or ships where there are no additional crew members, then they have to get their hands dirty). After all, even a ship with one engineer can divide its total DCR among two or more repairs...so obviously the engineer can't be in two places at once. When you think about it, the technical sub-skill "repair machinery" is what ultimately gets addressed...in the case of a ship the engineer supervises this repair with his/her expertise for the DCR roll. |
September 24, 2009 - 4:44pm | As for my own preferences, I use anyone with a starship skill as a bridge watch office, but don't always require a biological on the bridge. That's what the communications program and intercom is for, broadcasting alarms to the crew. On most ships, the bridge should be a secure area for trained personnel only. Whenever possible, I like to have either a pilot or an astrogator on watch. I figure both of these are able to make minor adjustments in speed or course if needed. Larger ships definitely have regular technicians and robotics personnel, especially on passenger carrying ships. Techs are needed to see to the life support and other routine maintenance needs and roboticists keep the service and maintenance robots running. I do not require my captain to have any starship skills, although (obviously) I prefer the captain to know Astrogation. It is, after all, what I deem to be the single most important skill on a starship. On ships that are not atomic powered, I do not require an engineer. Computer controlled robots and technicians can handle most of the chores on these simpler craft, but an engineer is needed to manage, overhaul, and refuel atomics. Great comments regarding fully automated ships. I think there is a place for them in SF, the Aliens scenario being one of them. It all depends on what skill sets you require of your characters. I have a modified Corvette configured as a rescue craft. It has a skeleton starship crew, a small medical team, and a rescue party that ride along in frozen storage as the automated ship makes all jumps at ADF 4 (removed the canon for improved ADF). Its a nifty ship and a decent adventure hook for lower skilled characters. The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of
the strong. * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi |
September 24, 2009 - 4:56pm | Since I been playing with adventures set in different eras of the non-existent time line I've leaned to just having advances in computer code or hardware or even in the physics of void space leading to cutting the computation time for astrogation- drum roll- here comes my house rule for one setting (Warriors of White Light 2) since its 100 years in the future of the original module it takes 1 hour per light year if you have an up to date astro software and hardware - seeing as how I go to work and deal with CRT's and software written in BASIC!!!!!!!! - I allow for cheap arse freight companies not upgrading there equipment and software cause the old stuff is still working and they rather bend of a dollar to pick up a nickel.but I digress There is anynumber of ways to modify the crappy time requirements for astrogation - allow for purchase of better software that cuts time -nav bouyes - staff the astrogator with an NPC But man I'm with shadow on this dont replace the players with a computer! it sucks in RL and not much fun in game either. I actually like to cut the time to plot a jump and increase the astro gatores responsibilies- communications, scanning, electronic counter measures jamming and defeating jamming. Some of those things could prove vital in combat. There's always the old trick of using multiple astrogators. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
