 December 3, 2008 - 4:00am | Just curious if anyone has used the SF 2000 rules for star frontiers. I'll confess up front I'm a hater of the original skills system and was disappointed with the lack of ship skills in Zebs but was delighted when I found SF 2000. Though I wanted to tweek them already on my first reading- I ended up moving some of the PSAs around a little and tweek a few that I didn't move then did cut and paste to get all skill descriptions into the document as it only had the skills new to that document then edited the Zeb skill descriptions to make them match the AD resolution system. So my campaign has run on AD resolution system, SF 2000 skill rules (modified) and we've had 3 prequel adventures (travelling to Truane's Star and a bar fight scene) and we're about to enter the caverns episode of SF-0 What I've noticed with the SF 2000 rules is that I think the experience cost for skill is too low. For instance one of the PCs is already up to lvl 4 with a weapon skill. and we haven't even gotten to the quickdeath yet! The formula is skill level equals the exp required for it or 2x the skill level for skills outside your PSAs. Hence this PC has spent only 10exp and is now level 4 with his weapon skill. Compared to a AD rules character spending 10 exp its a big difference! He could be lvl 6 with that skill before we finish SF-1 I'm thinking that the exp cost should be double for those rules to slow down the PCs: 2x the skill level to buy an in PSA skill and possibly 4X or 3x the skill level to buy out of PSA skills. this will make PSA choice more important as the cost involve wont be so cheap. and with higher cost the players may actually see a value to putting exp into ablility scores as well. has anyone else noticed this quirk with this rule set? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
 December 3, 2008 - 5:54am | I have played it numerous times, but mostly with pregenerated characters for a one-shot tournament. The times I have GM-ed SF2K, including all the Volturnos modules, my players have always used their xp's to round out the skills, and didn't do a power-dump into one or two skills. Maybe I just got lucky with my players, so that quirk never showed itself. I also utilize a house rule that wont allow a pc to "jump" skill levels. When it is time to burn xp, skills can only be increased by one level. But, i think you are onto something there. I think the original creators and play-testers set it up that way because of the number of skills available. Most were seasoned gamers who had left the power-gaming behind, possibly didn't consider someone dumping everything into one skill. Will try to remember to contact them. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
December 3, 2008 - 5:57am | how often are you handing out xp? and how much? Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 December 3, 2008 - 6:46am | I have not used SF2K so I don't know if there is a quirk. FYI, There is a Exp Ponint article in the Star Frontiersman Issue 1 |
December 3, 2008 - 8:06am | I have not used SF2K so I don't know if there is a quirk. getting off-topic, I will try to put together a SF2K pbm over the Xmas holiday. Maybe some of the quirks will become more apparent then. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
December 3, 2008 - 8:20am | I have not used SF2K so I don't know if there is a quirk. getting off-topic, I will try to put together a SF2K pbm over the Xmas holiday. Maybe some of the quirks will become more apparent then. Sweet Rum! Count me in! |
December 4, 2008 - 10:00am | Alright let me hit a few thing in the order I remember them 1. the PC with Lvl 4 shooting is a Military profession and I did let him buy lvl 2 in character generation (also let the spacer character buy a lvl 3 prerequisit skill to get his desired skill to pilot ships- this was his thing and figured it'd be ok as I'd have to create opportunity for him to pilot in the volturnus campaign plus that much of his starting exp tied up in so few skills meant he'd have few skills total so I thought over all it'd be a balance) So far no one has tried to buy more than one level since character creation but this player has stayed focus on his military skills. I just found it surprising at this point in the module and I see it being a problem in the long run (kind of a power creep in skills) 2. I gave out the 1-3 exp for 2 of the prequel episodes (everyone just got 3exp each) but switched over to a more objective system similar to the one in star frontiersman but it still only generates 1-3 possible 4 and I give notoriety points but their not exp like in the article they're more or less a notoriety score for interacting with NPCs down the road. 3. I give out the exp at the end of each episode and I noticed during prep for this friday that the caverns episode in SF-0 says to give out exp 3 times during the crawl through the caverns and I wont do that just once at the end and then the quickdeath episode I wont give anything more than 1exp for survivors of that or lump the qickdeath together with a role play episode having the PCs participate in the Great Link ceremony (time when the 2 moons, planet and star line up and the ulmor experience a deeper telepathic link) I've prepped visions that each PC will experience individually- they get to read the vision once and hand it back and what they remember of it is what they remember and can share with other players. Most of the visions are based off what I know is coming in the modules plus stuff I'm adding like the Knight Hawk portion of the battle for Volturnus. So anyhow the quick death and the great link ceremony will constitute one exp episode. 4. I'm going to talk to the players this friday and suggest that skill levels their characters are at will be unaffected but that the exp requirements will be up from this point. I think there wont be too much grumbling. Thanks for all the feed back I'll continue to post observations about the sf 2k rules as I notice things during play. I suspect the big issue is just the exp thing and increasing it will deffinetly help the PSA issue where because skills were so cheap that not having a PSA isn't really a big deal. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 4, 2008 - 10:25am | 3. I give out the exp at the end of each episode and I noticed during prep for this friday that the caverns episode in SF-0 says to give out exp 3 times during the crawl through the caverns and I wont do that just once at the end ... I forgot about that. I did the same. Kinda thought SF-0 handed out a bit too much xp. 4. I'm going to talk to the players this friday and suggest that skill levels their characters are at will be unaffected but that the exp requirements will be up from this point. I think there wont be too much grumbling. I do like your idea of increasing the xp cost. Looking through the SF2K info, it does state that the skill costs are low due to the large number of skills available. I'll continue to post observations about the sf 2k rules as I notice things during play. I suspect the big issue is just the exp thing and increasing it will deffinetly help the PSA issue where because skills were so cheap that not having a PSA isn't really a big deal. Sounds like a plan. Keep us informed. I would like to hear how it develops. In the past I had toyed with the idea of increasing skill levels from 6 to 8, and each level worth 5% instead of 10%. Never had the opportunity to test that one. But it seems like it would increase the difficulty by a significant amount. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
 December 4, 2008 - 2:08pm | Overall, it is better to dole out more XP than less... I would definitely stick to the one level per juncture rule, but allow the PCs to "bank" their XP until the next juncture when they can raise another level with the new XP. I find the military PSA rise very rapidly. But, given the ridiculous lack of ammunition in those modules, I think it is very important that they get those skills up. If your military PCs are not at least 4th level by the time of the Pirate Outpost then there will be problems. |
 December 4, 2008 - 4:47pm | I agree with Brian. The 2K rules looked interesting, but I've yet to test them.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
December 6, 2008 - 6:46am | I spent the day thinking about the skill level situation and talked it over with the players and it turns out that most PCs are mostly lvl 1-2 skill and the one player with lvl 4 PGS weapons is a one hit wonder who can shoot (though I suspect he's been firing his laser pistol off his PGS skill) and he can patch up the wounded a little. It turns out that the other players were focusing on rounding out their characters capabilities. So I decided it was not a problem and made no changes. I'm still curious to hear from a developer of the sf2k rules if they play tested the exp / skill level thing and what their observations were. BTW the other players suggested that I should run severl role play/ problem solving sessions in a row which would give the lvl 4 shooter nothing to do - its seems they're miffed with him again because he picked up a kilo of gold last week (no matter the game system this player has a knack for falling into money and not sharing with the other players though that is totally consistent with his character concept) I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
December 6, 2008 - 9:22am | Sounds to me like the lvl 4 shootist needs to be accidentally machinegunned to death by a squad of pirates.  "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 February 23, 2009 - 4:22pm | I'm curious to hear if you've continued using the SF2000 in your group and how it has played out? Maybe one tweak could be to double cost of all "Weapons" skills with the exception of Weapons:Repairs to slow down character offensive power growth. |
February 23, 2009 - 4:52pm | Or put Vash the Vruskan Stampede up against a squad of NPCs with either the same level of skill or higher. Instant game-balance fix right there, yeah, buddy. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
February 23, 2009 - 5:08pm | I'm curious to hear if you've continued using the SF2000 in your group and how it has played out? Maybe one tweak could be to double cost of all "Weapons" skills with the exception of Weapons:Repairs to slow down character offensive power growth. Actually we're on hiatus till spring as a number of people have been erractic in attendance and the general feeling is that taking 3 months off would be good. We more or less finished SF-0 Though I have a series of visions for the PCs to have while participating in the Great Link ceremony of the Ul-mor so I've saved that little bit for the pick up then we go harrowing off to face shard grass. After talking it over with the players it seems that very few have advanced beyond lvl 2 in any one skill and this one player has plowed all his xp into that one skill which really makes him a one trick pony so thats all he can do though he does it well. That being the case I dont think its a problem and since you could say that player is being disciplined in his xp spend I'm loath to "punish" him with a change so I let it ride. I can say that the tendency is for the other players to keep trying to buy 1st level skills that they want and not focus on anyone area. I've hinted that they should keep in mind what space ship skills they want to qualify for when things transition and it doesn't seem that anyone other than the lvl4 guy is close to qualifying for ship skills. having such a wide variety of skills available under the SF2000 and Zebs systems kind of robs the players of focus (that may not be true with experienced players but I have all newbies) as to how they want to develope their character. So an Alpha Dawn system with some Zebs add ins might not be so bad. Thats my observaitions so far. I no longer think of AD rules as SO restrictive and the shine has come off the SF 2000 rules a bit....ironically something on the order of whats proposed over on Frontier Space, as I understand them, is probably the best balance. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
February 24, 2009 - 7:45am | Will, That's vrash. Very vrash. ;-) Rum was going to startup a SF2000 game, I was looking forward to palying with that rule set for the first time. |
February 27, 2009 - 8:46am | Rum was going to startup a SF2000 game, I was looking forward to palying with that rule set for the first time. Slooooowly working on it (again). Just found the adventure I was going to rum a couple days ago. Touched up the maps. Need to convert npcs/targets. Still have to contact other players. Not to mention I have to add skill descriptions. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
February 27, 2009 - 10:37am | ...going to rum? Most people will run from danger. Not (insert real name), he rum's danger offering drinks to his would-be assailants! |
 March 2, 2009 - 9:57pm | I have been looking at a SF2000 PDF (Tom V Edition). Looks very interesting. If you increase the Xp required to purchase skills, you are going to kill the people whose characters (like your Spacer) require a lot of prerequisites to even get any of their profession's skills at all. In my experience it is impossible to build a rules set that is power gamer proof, without making it so restrictive that it is a chore to play. Power gamers are best controlled in-game. They either learn to play nice or they get bored and leave the gaming group. Pirates with machine-guns sounds like a good start! |
March 4, 2009 - 4:02pm | Pineappleleader, I likes your style! "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
