 November 29, 2008 - 9:26am | We need to come up with a game that FEELS like a popular game from the
80's but doesn't use any copyrighted or trademarked material from that
game. That means we need our own set of core races. We could use
races from the webzine, or we can make up our own. Whatever we do, we
need to determine the number of races we'll call "core" then decide on
a guideline for the "lesser" races. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 November 29, 2008 - 9:49am | I've got a few in Gargoyle's project which might be ideal, plus some off a couple of pbwiki sites. I'll inflict them all on you guys and see which ones you like.... "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 November 29, 2008 - 10:11am | One quick area we should address is the Human race. We should have a new mechanic to differentiate the Humans from other races. Using the same could be construed as IP infringement. An extra Skill choice perhaps? <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 10:17am | Sounds good to me. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 November 29, 2008 - 11:04am | Humans should not be plain Jane. (Remember even Jane is a the Hero of Canton!) Perhaps there are several Human worlds and each world sparked a different trait. A high-G world would cause bonus in Strength for example. |
November 29, 2008 - 11:06am | Variant and mutant humans for definite. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 11:10am | I brought this up in the Setting thread - but what about the idea of divorcing the core races from the player's book? After all, aren't the core races core to the setting rather than to the game mechanics? One of my gripes about D&D 4E was adding a bunch of non-tolkein races to the core rules, as if all settings would include a dragonborn or tiefling (sp?). Maybe we create a robust system for developing humans in the player's book, and include a system on how to create races in the Referee's book, but we make the "core" races in the Frontier book, that way new Frontier books could have races core to it which may not exist in other people's settings. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 11:22am | Perhaps we can go for a Human-centric approach to race. Pure Strain (new name please), Genetically Altered (mutational), Cybernetically/Bionically Altered, or Near-Humans partially evolved on other worlds (like high-G strength enhanced, low G lunar-humans, or even morlock style devolved ones).... but everyone is essentially Human. Agreed than other races can be sent over to specific settings, or to the ref sections as adversaries (ie Sathar). Once core rules for all these variant humans are presented, then the same approaches can be directed towards the other races.... Artificially evolved animal men, High G Insectoid race, Cyborg-amebiods, who knows <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 12:21pm | Brilliant, Smoot! That's a good idea, and takes as its point of reference the Gamma World and Marvel Super Heros human outlook (all great games from the 80's)... But I can only see three subgroups in my mind... Pure Humans (those from planets similar enough to Earth). Mutated Humans (either those who evolved differently on a world whose forces shaped the species to mutate on their own, or those who are the result of genetic manipulation instead of terraforming the planet. This mutation could simply be higher strength, denser bones, and shorter stature on a world with high gravity, for example, or could be a drastic change like blue skin tone and adapted lungs to breathe on a world whose content of amonia in the air is so small that nobody noticed the slow change over the generations). Cybernetic Humans (cybernetically augmented to operate on the planet in question, to tolerate various forces on that world or to combat various diseases or problems that arose on that world during the human occupation there. Night vision implants for a world whose only habitible section is it's permanently dark continent facing away from its sun... etc). If we detail these enough in the core book, this would make humans feel significantly different... and it feels like a proper handling of humans in the future in my mind. Thoughts? I have one thought: Isn't a Cybernetic Human just a Pure Human who underwent a procedure? What if a Pure Human does that... does he become a Cybernetic Human? What if a Mutated Human undergoes cybernetic augmentation... what is he then? Hm... Maybe these should just be three categories of choice for human character generation rather than three distinct racial variants. In this case, starting as a "Pure" or "Mutated" or "Cybernetic" version of any species should be possible... so then what makes Pure Humans special? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 12:30pm | How 'bout separating Humans by the planets they're native to, as the enviroment will shape genetics. Say Earth Humans, Lunar Humanity, Titans, Martians, and the like. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 12:35pm | How 'bout separating Humans by the planets they're native to, as the enviroment will shape genetics. Nifty idea. This is similar to the way humanity was handled in the 25th Century genre of Buck Rogers. Lunarians, Martians, etc. But all were mutated humans, genetically altered to survive in the climates of the planets of our solar system. Venutians were downright scary! This would tie human variances to the setting though - so it's something we have to decide as a community if we'd support. Say Earth Humans, Lunar Humanity, Titans, Martians, and the like. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 12:39pm | Another suggestion would be to go the way of WOTC's Star Wars...Humans for the plain vanilla Humanity, and near-Human to cover the other thirty flavors of Humanity. (Of course, not those exact terms, since they're IP, no doubt, but something similar, no?) "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 12:44pm | Perhaps the cybernetics/bionics could be vented over to the skills section, something that can be bought/earned through xp only. That leaves only 2 human types... pure or altered (of various types). I thinks full write ups of a couple of types of 'altered' humans would give folks enough for a base. While I am thinking about it, why don't we change XP to something like Development Points, just to further divert from old IP. <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 12:49pm | XP isn't really IP(which is IP in and of itself), as WOTC's foetid offerings, GURPS, two of the former GDW's games, and several others have used it. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 12:51pm | not IP, but anything we can do to pull away helps. Lawyer types will try to assert connections whenever they can... I think like a lawyer at times. <insert witty comment here> |
November 29, 2008 - 12:53pm | "First, let's kill all the lawyers." —Wm Shakespeare. But I see your point. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 29, 2008 - 1:32pm | Calling things by different names doesn't hurt them one bit and I have no problem differentiating from things that might make people say: "Hey - there is so much similarity here it's frightening!" For example, let's not say make our three core races in our core setting be a bug-person, monkey-person, and shape-shifting person, ok? lol Development Points is pretty descriptive, I say we can use that cuz it's simply not that important and why not differentiate. Other things I've seen in other game systems: Character Points Hero Points Karma Don't really care what we call it. Hm... maybe we should start a Glossary of Terms thread that all of us can contribute to? But I'm digressing. This thread is about core races, right? haha... So - humans. That's going to be the basis of the player's book/section. You can create a human, select an option (Pure, Altered, or Augmented) as a basis for your character generation template, or you can select a race from the Setting book if permitted by the Referee. Pure Humans should have some benefit, but the player should be able to select. How about: Pure Human character can begin with one of the following benefits, decided upon by the player at the time of character creation: Option 1. Add +5 to any one ability score. (is this enough? +10?) Option 2. Select an additional starting skill at Level 1, which can come from any skill area. Option 3. Start play with an additional 100Cr funds to buy starting gear. Altered Human and Augmented Human characters get none of these benefits, but instead may select one of a very specific list of genetic or technological human improvements. Any improvement which provides an improvement greater than one of the three Pure Human options should be countered by some common-sense disadvantage to balance that genetic or technological improvement. Does this sound good? Can you think of any more options for human character development? Providing options like that puts more control in the hands of the players to create a character of their chosing, without creating huge lists of "Feats" and crap to accomplish that same end. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 29, 2008 - 1:34pm | Yes, tho I favor option 2, one extra Level 1 skill. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
November 30, 2008 - 9:32am | I think I like the idea that Humans are the most adaptable, spreading into every region with ease. They accomplish this through either: 1) Being extremely flexible and apt learners. Perhaps they get an additional Skill at creation. Additionally, perhaps we can discount 1 XP(dp) or even half XP when learning a New Skill (not simply increasing skill ranks though). 2) Being masterful in certain areas of either ability or skill. +10 to a ability score, or choose a single skill that can be raised at half xp cost (throughout their career). - afterthought, perhaps they choose a single ability score that can be raised at half xp cost. but overall, I am flexible to other ideas. I do like to give them some sort of choice. When it comes to other races/variants, I like the idea of choosing between 2 or more roughly equal abilities, rather than blanketing a race with a trait. For instance, when designing the High G workers, perhaps they get a choice of either Strength or Stamina boost, perhaps even beyond a set of racial ability adjustments. <insert witty comment here> |
November 30, 2008 - 6:09pm | ...random thoughts by w00t.... Corjay and I worked on the Origins project and it seems to fit perfectly with this topic. A humans skill and ability would reflect the environment they grow up in. I would like to see a group of humans that grew up entirely in space. Maybe something like Titan A.E. |
November 30, 2008 - 6:40pm | Like the Coordinators from GundamSEED, or Space Opera's High Colonists. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
 December 1, 2008 - 1:35am | I have always been fond of the idea of separation of mechanics and campaign. If the game is to be easy to run, the character creation should be easy. On the other hand a more complex framework to create character races is often nice for GMs. My idea would be a system specifying a range for player versus non-player character races, with possible guidelines for creating species types, e.g. humanoid, insectoid (social and non-social), herbavoire bovines, antropoid, serpentine, pseuodpod or ameoboid etc... This would mean that most races would not have superior racial abilities, and could even mean that humans might be considered a minor race. It could have a point system for race creation, while still having a simple feel for individual character creation. Or it could use a table tree for randomly generate races --- e.g. enviromental basis, body type, reproduction, species family, special abilities etc ... Or it could use both. Many science fiction games are humancentric -- humans are always known for their adaptability, but what about a game where this is possible, but not necessary? This would allow for maximum GM flexibility -- do you want a campaign with 3 or 4 races or one with unlimited races (allowing characters to roll their race ab initio)? I am fond of campaigns where things start out pretty restricted, but develop. I like the idea of giving GMs the tools to rapidly develop more races and hence more campaign material almost on the fly. |
 December 1, 2008 - 5:02am | I once read a book STAR TIDE RIASING and in it the humans had invented the tech to make different animals on earth sentient. Dolphins and Chimps were main charicters. Maybe we could have an ape race (planet of the apes?) I like the idea of humans getting a bonus too. (insert sarcastic comeback here) |
 December 1, 2008 - 7:17am | One thing to ask about the Humans in this "space" is how long have they been here? Genetic variation usually needs time to happen if there is no manipulation done to leapfrog evolution. Are we talking something more "Star Wars" oriented with Humans having been present in situ for millions of years or something more "Frontier"/"Firefly" oriented where time is in the hundreds of years? The "special ability" of Humans in most sci-fi is their adaptability, the jack-of-all-trades and a master of none. I like the idea that is presented with variation within the Human species to give them "flavour" and playability that is more diverse than some. Greater/lesser strength or intelligence or perception (just using generic names for traits), aggressive or passive, many possibilities. For skill or ability bonuses at the generation stage of a character, I guess you need to answer just how far reaching do you want that bonus to be. An extra skill level will benefit the character in the "early game", but be lost as an advantage rather quickly as they progress. The ability bonus may be more of an advantage for a longer period, but ultimately it will also be rendered moot by progression. There was mention of making it easier for the "standard" Human to get a bonus when getting skills, i.e. less "cost" and the trade off might be that they cannot progress as high without augmenting a core trait (not that there has to be a trade off, just tossing it out there). Make the number of skills you can have related to the intelligence trait or something similar. One could tie specific skills to specific traits, similar to the skill rolls, but make it that you have to have at least a set value in order to be able to have more of that one type of skill or get higher bonuses. For example, in order to have 5 "intellectual" skills you need a "intelligence" of 50 (trait divided by 10) or something similar. I agree that huge lists of feats may not be the best way to go, but people do sometimes want to feel special. "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
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 December 1, 2008 - 8:11am | In regards to what Shing said, perhaps humans who have grown up in low gravity might lose non-assisted planetary abilities (this no doubt has to be better worded) but can gain skills in other areas either straight physical or perception wise, like bonus on some sort of inertia based science or skill. Maybe have some base juggling points a player can move about if they take a certain treepath. But I do worry about players meta - scrounging for points - planning (however maybe that's not a bad thing and only a different way someone might enjoy the game) so maybe point to skill allocation if picked could be after they picked a particular path. I almost like the thought of going for no core races and just giving potential players a framework but personally I really enjoy having solid options and a backdrop history wise. Anyway for a core race how about something squid like, a throw back to Earth 1 (prior to us getting the moon). This race would require assistance outside of a liquid bouyant environment, but would be highly intelligent and dextrous. They would need some sort of breather or if it's decided that having a single point breather is hardly handicaping we could require them to have a full suit. Perhaps also having them have inate fears of drying or being handicap on the surface. Maybe most want some sort of cybernetic suit for surface travel. |
December 1, 2008 - 3:49pm | Squid like? An elder race, as it were.....:D "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
December 1, 2008 - 4:10pm | Once we have the formalities of game mechanics down (attributes, skills) we should then work out some proposals for a race generation system. Once we have the system tweaked, I plan on running a 30-day racefest where everyone who wants to do so may develop a race, then we'll vote (with some moderation thrown in to prevent three warlike races or whatever). Top three should win out. Does that sound good? If you agree, start working on your race background/history/abilities/appearance/culture/etc. The game mechanics will be tweaked out soon enough!!! 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
December 4, 2008 - 8:49am | When it comes to Race creation, I had a thought (mentioned elsewhere briefly as well). Instead of crafting races with lots of initial bonuses (or penalties), perhaps we can instead give them penalties or bonuses to the DP cost of advancing the abilities (per table in Bill's DP document). It would prevent the 'front-loading' of any race and rather give them a benefit that continues throughout their adventuring career. Perhaps caps for initial abilities can be in place. For instance, using Vrusk as an example: Vrusk are not generally strong, and initially cannot have a STR score higher than 45. Additionally it costs them one category higher (on Bill's table of costs in the DP documet) when advancing their STR. However, Vrusk have well developed brains and have no initial limitation at character creation. Vrusk characters can advance their LOG scores at one category lower (cheaper DP cost on Bill's table). Again, this method would minimize the front loading of any new races created, and give them qualities that last indefinitely. Of course, Bill's table of costs might need a slight makeover to ensure this is inuitive, perhaps with 2 additional columns that adjust costs either up (penalty) or down (cheaper). Another thought, is to eliminate the connectivity of the pairs of abilities altogether. A race might be very logical, but very un-intuitive at the same time. Much like how Sathar are defined in the original Ref section... High LDR, but low PER scores. Races can be developed with much more variability in their abilities this way. <insert witty comment here> |
 December 4, 2008 - 2:17pm | That sounds like a great idea, Smoot. Once the characteristics are defined in the core rules, I will consider using that model. Grendel T. Troll Registered Linux User #299419 "Nobody remembers what you say. A few might remember what you do, but EVERYONE remembers how you make them feel." ~ Anonymous |
December 4, 2008 - 2:34pm | That sounds like a great idea, Smoot. Once the characteristics are defined in the core rules, I will consider using that model. Primary characteristics are already defined (though maybe subject to change if people have extremely convincing opinions) - what do you mean?3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
December 16, 2008 - 6:40am | A few comments if I may. Make the attributes of your races meet your game-play and game-balance needs, not the other way around. |
