 March 23, 2008 - 10:30am | I thought Zeram made some good observations concerning the sniper rifles in Star Frontiersman #8. He said: March 23rd, 2008 - 11:43am I had a big problem with the sniper rifles (laser and gauss). Both of these are just long-range, low rate of fire versions of their regular cousins (except the gauss sniper rifle somehow gets an extra 1d10 to damage). Neither of these rifles would be suitable for a character trying to be a sniper. Both give tell-tale signs of where the shots originate and thereby making it suicidal for the would-be sniper. Once you fire they know where you are since the laser is either a beam or a pulse of light easily seen and the gauss rifle's projectile "leaves a short red or blue streak trailing the projectile". Continuing with the sniper rifles, the note about allowing a sniper to multiply the damage by their weapon skill level is way too far out there in balance IMO. At least with the sniper rifle in Issue 4 you were looking at a maximum of 60 points of damage. The damage output of the rifles in Issue 8 just made this a real problem to look at. Maybe lessen the bonus to adding an extra 1d5 or 1d10 per level of the sniper's weapon skill instead? Just to touch back on the regular gauss rifle a moment, I would probably back off on it being able to fire a burst. But that's just me personally. So I see the following points: 1. The shot path should not be traceable 2. Single shots will be more important (goes back to traceable). 3. Damage management. (One shot, one kill should be able to be upheld.) 4. weapons skill. (Should there be a Sniper Rifle weapons skill?) |
 March 25, 2008 - 11:27am | Hold on Corjay, I think you are proceeding by some assumptions. I joined the USMC in 1989. In 1990 I graduated from camp pendelton sniper school. I served in Desert Shield with the 1st Marine Recon Battalion. Though I agree a sniper type character would need a whole other set of skills. Simply hitting a target at long range does not a sniper make. It doesn't take a ton of long training to hit a target at 200m. My 11 year old son can hit shotgun shells at 200m with a .22 and .243. Some Marine snipers have never fired a weapon before. In basic they get about 4 weeks of rifle training. Then if they do well they can join sniper school. Afeter 2 more months of traing they can graduate Sniper Scout. So, it doesn't take years to master. Marines do want to do max damage at range. That is why many Marine Corps snipers use 300 Win. Mag. instead of the GI issue 308. That is also why there is a barrett light .50 in just about every Marine and Army company deployed in Iraq right now. They want to be able to have stability at range and destroy whatever they hit. And no we are not trained to exclusively hit the head. I defy you to find someone that can hit a target at 10m but can't hit anything at 200m. If they understand the concept of shooting. which someone who can hit a small target does, they will be able to hit a long range target. In fact, the army now qualifies at short range and uses very small targets to simulate longer ranges. In the realm of Star Frontiers, I would consider someone at level one rifle skill to be a trained person. Like someone out of basic training or an avid target shooter or hunter. Someone at level 6 I would expect them to be able to shoot every bit as well as a trained sniper. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
March 25, 2008 - 1:03pm | Well, just to be clear, I never said the head was the only target. I just used it as the simplest means to a sure kill. I was under the impression that a sharpshooter only gets as good as they get from years of practice. If I'm wrong, then fine. I won't press it. |
March 25, 2008 - 1:53pm | I don't think it is necessary to have a sniper skill specifically to use a sniper weapon. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
 March 25, 2008 - 10:53pm | I agree that a "Scout" skill would be nice. There are a great number of handy skills that could easily integrate into Star Frontiers without breaking the system. Yes, when I said no more than 20 skills, I WAS suggesting a skill set that deviates from the Alpha Dawn set. But Corjay, your suggested skill system for AER DOES deviate from Alpha Dawn considerably. Zeb's Guide (the proposed solution TSR had for the restrictive skill system from AD) deviated from Alpha Dawn whole-heartedly. What I'm suggesting is an open-ended skill system that deviates from Alpha Dawn but is simple to use, simple enough for my 8-year-old, but flexible enough to please my wife's more complex character concepts. If we start adding skills like "Scout" that has a handful of subskills, then we stick with the restrictive skill system and add a new avenue of flexibility but don't address the root cause... but who cares? The point is we should maintain the simplicity of AD. If it's just for a proposed article for the StarFrontiersman, people will use or reject it... either way it's a good avenue for discussion and development. I'll work on a system and playtest it in a few sessions, then submit it through the submission path I'm setting up for the webzine. Just because it deviates doesn't invalidate it. I know what you're trying to do with AER, Corjay, but I'm not bound by your project... I want to present a wealth of options rich with creativity. I personally think the skill system from AD is poor and eliminates the possibility of certain character concepts. If you would like, I'll start a thread and we can work on this submission as a community? Anyone interested, or do I go it alone? :-) 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 25, 2008 - 11:38pm | I never said anyone has to be limited by my projects. I point out my projects as a matter of simply what I've done as examples. I mentioned the 100 skills, because that's what I was able to knock it down to without completely demolishing what people have come to know. The AER skill system leaves the original system entirely in tact. It just tweaks the skills list and provides an option for melding the three systems (AD/KH/Zeb's) together. That's all. Everything you could do in the original AD you can do with AER. That's what it was designed for. As for your skill system proposal, if you want an open development of your article, I'd gladly participate. But to me, we'll just be creating a new game, as any game is primarily built on two systems of mechanics: 1. its classing/skills system and 2. Its combat system. If you completely trade out one of those, it becomes a new system. Just pointing that out. I'm just not sure what purpose it would serve than further fragmenting the community's rules sets. |
March 26, 2008 - 7:48am | I'd be on board to creat a Scout skill. I don't think it would have to deviate from the AD rules. It would just make some of those outdoor type skills used by Environmentalists available to a character with a military PSA. At least that is my concept of it. I think the Scout skill would fill a niche that hasn't been explored. That type of character would be hired by colonists on a new planet. They could aslo do recon for Star Law or UPF. etc. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
 March 26, 2008 - 8:14am | Scout skill as a Military PSA makes more sense to me than in the realm of a sort of Biologist. An Environmentalist, since it is grouped with Medical and Psycosocial makes me think more of of a scientiest type, not as a survivalist type... some cross-over areas of knowledge might occur, but overall the Scout/Survivalist type seems much more of a militant endeavor overall. Also because placing these skills into the Military PSA realm (in whatever combination or method is desired) would lower the XP costs associated, then the skills will see more use by a greater number of characters (even characters with other than Military PSA preferences). So, now you can have a Biologist (Environmentalist) take actual survival skills as well with little pain (reduced XP), and also have Military Squad types who can actually function well in the outdoors. Even the occasional Tech type might pick up some outdoorsy skills to service equipment being used in remote or harsh regions. <insert witty comment here> |
March 26, 2008 - 10:21am | Sounds good Smoot. I think we are on the same page. At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
March 26, 2008 - 10:28am | Scout skill as a Military PSA makes more sense to me than in the realm of a sort of Biologist. An Environmentalist, since it is grouped with Medical and Psycosocial makes me think more of of a scientiest type, not as a survivalist type... That's exactly why I prefer separating an "Explorer" PSA out from Biosocial. |
March 26, 2008 - 11:00am | I hadn't thought of an Explorer PSA, but that would be a decent tweak to the AD rules. Now, for Skill Groups within an Explorer PSA... Scout (as postulated above); Dive skill (for underwater); Languages might be included here (instead of independantly); any other ideas? As a side concept only slightly related to this, I had worked on an Artisan PSA that could be included into an AD rules style. It included an Artist skill set that made DaVinci Code art intrigue style games possible. Other skill sets (as of yet undeveloped) were Performance and Craft sets, but I figured these two had limited 'game' value for a Star Frontiers game, but would make fleshing out NPCs possible. <insert witty comment here> |
March 26, 2008 - 12:37pm | In a skills list Bill and I worked on last year, I provided a "Rendering" subskill and a "Fabrication" subskill that assisted in artistic endeavors of all kinds. They could be combined into a single "Rendering" or "Craft" subskill. I wouldn't make it a whole skill set. Yes, it covers a lot and would be worthy of a whole skill set if any of the things grouped with it got used much. But simply because they don't get used much, it's just best to provide a generic subskill as a catchall. |
March 28, 2008 - 7:40am | If you look at the skills as-is, there really is a pattern. It would almost make sense to rename the three existing PSA's to: Science, Technology, and Military... and each one has three skills. Environmentalism is not the same as an Explorer. Remember that it is actually an environmental scientist. But TSR made it the only way to get certain subskills... grr to them. Science PSA (base cost 5xp per level) -Medical -Psychosocial -Environmental Technology PSA (base cost 4xp per level) -Robotics -Computers -Technician Military PSA (base cost 3xp per level) -Weapon Skill (must specialize) -Unarmed Combat -Demolitions I totally agree they left huge gaps in that, but it's not a horrible organization of skills for one of the first games on the market that used such mechanics. I think any new PSAs should follow suit and have no more or less than three skills in it (though, like Weapon Skill, a single skill can actually represent a collection of skills all sharing an identical mechanic). Any new PSAs should probably have base costs somewhere between 3xp and 5xp. I can imagine an Espionage PSA, Explorer PSA, Artisan PSA, even a Domestics PSA (yes - NPCs would prefer this one haha). 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 March 28, 2008 - 9:31am | SFAD was not "one of the first" to se skill based mechanics. Traveller beat it by several years (1977), Runequest was also skill based. A number of lesser-known games also used skill-based mechanics. Grouping them was innovative, after a fashion, but smacks strongly of class and level D&D. The PSA approach was the worst feature of SFAD... when I encountered traveller two weeks after SFAD, I made the jump. The PSA system is horribly coarse, has huge gaps, and was, as presented, making all characters look very similar; traveller's skill system, by contrast, covered a much wider field of human endeavor with simpler rules. Until Zeb's Guide, I never looked back. |
March 28, 2008 - 10:35am | Um...there's virtually no difference between AD PSA's and Zeb's professions. It's still choosing a path and going. Yes, AD categorizes its skill sets, while Zeb's gives a limiting ability to each profession. The idea is still the same: make it favorable to stay inside a certain path. There's really only a difference in how the skills are acquired: skill sets or individual skills. It is for THAT reason, and not the difference between PSA's and Professions, that there is less of a feel of classing in Zeb's. |
March 28, 2008 - 11:20am | Add to my suggested Skills sets within an Explorer PSA: Mountaineering in addition to Scout & Mariner (with diving as one of the subskills of a Mariner). One might compartmentalize Explorer Skills by Major Terrain types... but I think a generic scout, generic mountaineer and water-environment specialist covers the most hazardous terrains. I guess there might be bizarre alien style environments or one could super-specialize to include Desert, Artic, Lunar-scape, etc. but I like a more general set usable in most planetary types. Artisan PSA (probably to appear in SFMAN) includes: Artist, Craftsman, Performance Espionage PSA intrigues me: what are your ideas here? I am thinking the basic 'rogue' package techie'd up. But I would start with a James Bond model rather than the d&d'ish thief. Technician PSA might have a Communications Tech skill set added where transmissions, internet (system-net, frontier-net, or some equivalent), monitoring, fixing, etc.) Something that differs from computer skill directly and also differs from standar Technician skills (vehicles etc). Military PSA might have Armored (vehicular weaponry), Infantry (squad training rather than individual weapon skills), etc. added, although these might also be conceived as 'advanced skills like spaceship skills... for instance Armored (min level 2 technician, level 4 in one or more Heavy Weapon skills), S.E.A.L. (weapon skills, scout skills, etc.)... just ideas here, nothing more than off the top of my head. Domestics includes all the regular professions like clerical, basic construction, etc... or I would imagine something similar. <insert witty comment here> |
March 28, 2008 - 12:39pm | Actually, instead of "Espionage", I would do "Rogue" or "Confidence Man". You can then add Military skill sets to have the Espionage agent. |
March 28, 2008 - 3:47pm | Artisan PSA? seriously? At least I got to scare an alien rabbit thingy...... |
March 28, 2008 - 4:00pm | Yeah, having Artisan and Domestic skill sets is all kinda Douglas Adams to me. They don't fit. |
March 28, 2008 - 4:05pm | Artisan PSA? seriously? One aspect of it (Artist) is done already... and it really is pretty neato if you ask me. It allows for a DaVinci Code type of gaming experience. Possibly not for everyone's individual tastes, but it expands the role-play options for Referees or players wanting something along those lines. It might even be applicable for a National Treasure or Indiana Jones type of game, where details of art/antiquities provide clues to greater adventures. The other aspects (performer & craftsman) were more applicable for NPC details. <insert witty comment here> |
March 28, 2008 - 7:08pm | To be honest, my wife is one of the first people I've ever heard ask why she can't have skills along domestic or artisan lines in order to "round-out" her character. Most games have these skills today, even if it's just for the sake of completeness. For Espionage, I was thinking your classic secret agent. Disguise, deception, prowling, interrogating, poisons & toxins, encryption/decryption, demolitions, set/defeat booby traps, sleight of hand, etc. Not sure how to organize it into specific skills. Would love for someone to run with this one. SmootRK submitted an Artisan skill set that was quite good and well-rounded, definitely well suited for the game. To be honest though... I can't find it or I would have had it in last issue. The submission system is in place, though, over at starfrontiersman.com -- so please submit! Pretty soon we'll have a submissions editor to receive it but until then I'm doing it. Aramis is right - of course - but I didn't mean to infer that it was THE first. I said "one of the first" -- it was part of a whole evolution of RPing that started to break away from the minis table. Traveller's system of skills was great and much more open-ended. SF's was nearly class-based. But SF is old-school, promoting the idea of strong archetypes. My biggest problem with the AD skill system isn't the fact that it's suggesting the strong archetypes through paths, it's that there are only a few archetypes you can have. That's why I don't mind expanding by simply adding a few more PSAs. Few players raise non-PSA skills above levels 1 or 2 (it's just too expensive) but at least they are available as options to keep every medic from looking exactly alike. Adding a few non-adventuring skills (domestics... artisan... etc.) would really help in this regard, though few people (my wife and daughter being the only two I am aware of) would spend hard-earned experience points to be a better chef if the same xp could make you a better shot with a gyrojet pistol... 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 28, 2008 - 9:11pm | My article is trapped on my broken laptop, so I will need to try to locate a copy via Gmail archives or something. Backups people... Backups! Do it regularly, especially for files you work on regularly! You never know when something may break, even if technically not lost in the permanent sense, rather difficult to retrieve without extra resources. <insert witty comment here> |
March 28, 2008 - 9:16pm | That's why I do all my work online. |
March 28, 2008 - 9:18pm | Until a server you use stops working, or goes out of business, etc. They are not immune; you should keep your own backups. <insert witty comment here> |
March 28, 2008 - 9:47pm | The only thing I've ever seen happen is a web server crashing and the business failed to make backups. Ever since then I make sure that a site I work on does backups. I've never seen or heard of a server fold overnight without warning based on a company going out of business. Bill has said he does backups, and I know Drupal does backups of its servers, which I believe is the server Bill is on (Correct me if I'm wrong, Bill). I'm not organized enough to backup my files nightly. Besides that, starfrontiers.us is just more convenient for me. I don't believe my trust in this server or this site is misplaced. I've had four computers crash with my files, but I've only had one site (the one mentioned) swallow up my files. I've also had discs swallow up my files. |
March 28, 2008 - 10:37pm | The folks who use Blackberries got awfully upset when that big big big company's equipment was not working... it happens to the best of companies, even if only temporarily. <insert witty comment here> |
March 28, 2008 - 11:28pm | Not working or lost files? There's a big difference. One doesn't affect the point at all. The other does. See what I'm saying? Interrupted service is not the same as lost files. My point being, I trust a company that backs up its files more than I do my own equipment and habits, or lack thereof. |
March 28, 2008 - 11:24pm | The only thing I've ever seen happen is a web server crashing and the business failed to make backups. Ever since then I make sure that a site I work on does backups. I've never seen or heard of a server fold overnight without warning based on a company going out of business. Bill has said he does backups, and I know Drupal does backups of its servers, which I believe is the server Bill is on (Correct me if I'm wrong, Bill). I'm not organized enough to backup my files nightly. Besides that, starfrontiers.us is just more convenient for me. I don't believe my trust in this server or this site is misplaced. I've had four computers crash with my files, but I've only had one site (the one mentioned) swallow up my files. I've also had discs swallow up my files. I back up semi-regularly now. Drupal isn't a "server" - it's a collection of core php code already written for you to begin development from...sort-of a foundation upon which to develop your own sites. I honestly have no idea where the real server is that my content lives on, but I occassionally zip up my entire site - database and all - and put it on my home hard drive. Last time I did it was just before I left for Malaysia. It gets backed up every month or so. In addition to that, the company I host with claims to have redundant servers and backs them up biweekly. The site is fairly secure that way.Now my own hard drive... that's another story. Can't count how many times I've screwed up my hard drive. Here is a HUGE helper for anyone who wants to know: Get two physical hard drives. Drive C: will be for your OS and all of your installs of software, and will be the first thing to die or need re-formatted. Allow your second drive, Drive D: to hold all of your data. You can even tell Windows that your "My Documents" drive is D:\ that way it seems like any normal Windows environment. Having to reformat your C drive isn't uncommon, and making two physical drives has been a saving grace for my home PC. My work laptop is just one big hard drive, and I've lost tons of stuff through the years because of that. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 28, 2008 - 11:36pm | The drupal developers is what I meant. Drupal is a trademark of Dries Buytaert. |
March 28, 2008 - 11:41pm | Now that you say you don't know the server company, that makes me nervous. If I knew, I'd be more comfortable knowing the source. |
March 29, 2008 - 12:09am | Now that you say you don't know the server company, that makes me nervous. If I knew, I'd be more comfortable knowing the source. haha no, I know the company... and I know where the company's mailing address is. What I don't know is exactly where the server is physically located... I've never seen it. Most folks who have websites hosted don't know where the server physically is located. I'll bet w00t would know how to find out with his magic internetworky skills.3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
