 March 17, 2008 - 6:15pm | First, and foremost, I really like the art that inspired this article. Shell did an excellent job reimagining the mechanon. I will be using the image as a template for my future drawings of the mechanon. At first glance, I think this article, like the one for the Eorna, are a little long to fit as is in AER, so I will edit this down to its necessary components. However, as an article, such length is good for a meaty read. The reimagined image of the mechanon makes their sticking to humanoid appearance with two arms and two legs make sense. The image somehow makes it make perfect sense that the grace, beauty, and efficiency of the human form, as well as superior craftsmanship would be a trademark of a superior race of sentient machines and would even be awe-inspiring to be in their presence. One problem: in the Senses part of the article, it says that only the warriors have infrared and starlight optics, but in the Special Abilities section it says that all mechanon have both abilities. The original write-up says only the warriors have it and is consistent in the Special Abilities section, so I recommend sticking with that. Thinkers don't need either. Where the huge amount of text comes in is with the extra two pages of materials covering the mechanon special abilities. I find this VERY cumbersome. I think these could have been expressed with the tables alone. Other than those issues, it's a good write-up. :) |
 March 17, 2008 - 8:19pm | One other (very) minor nit-pick I noticed was that the figures in the drawing were labeled as "Warrior" and "Noble", while the text called them "Warriors and "Thinkers." Not a big deal for an article of such detail. "Rome didn't build an empire by having meetings. They did it by killing those who stood in their way." |
 March 17, 2008 - 8:46pm | One other (very) minor nit-pick I noticed was that the figures in the
drawing were labeled as "Warrior" and "Noble", while the text called
them "Warriors and "Thinkers." Not a big deal for an article of such
detail. I noticed the "Warrior" and "Noble" thing too - but time was pressing and I didn't want to have Shell change his art, rescan, and re-email. I thought it was minor. I nearly decided to rename the Thinker to Noble in the actual article, but opted against it as "thinkers" represent a ton of various professions within their culture, not just a noble class.First, and foremost, I really like the art that inspired this article.
Shell did an excellent job reimagining the mechanon. I will be using
the image as a template for my future drawings of the mechanon. I look forward to seeing your version !! Don't hog all your creativity for your own books though - we can use it in the future issues of the Frontiersman! :-) At
first glance, I think this article, like the one for the Eorna, are a
little long to fit as is in AER, so I will edit this down to its
necessary components. However, as an article, such length is good for a
meaty read. Yeah yeah... we all should be making our articles sized right for your AER project, we know... ;-) The reimagined image of the mechanon makes their
sticking to humanoid appearance with two arms and two legs make sense.
The image somehow makes it make perfect sense that the grace, beauty,
and efficiency of the human form, as well as superior craftsmanship
would be a trademark of a superior race of sentient machines and would
even be awe-inspiring to be in their presence. One problem: in the Senses part of the article, it says that only the warriors have infrared and starlight optics, but in the Special Abilities section it says that all mechanon have both abilities. The original write-up says only the warriors have it and is consistent in the Special Abilities section, so I recommend sticking with that. Thinkers don't need either. I disagree. One of the special abilities of Thinkers (my decision, but I think it worked out well in game) was the amazing level of enhanced senses they have, moreso than the warrior class. This makes them natural leaders on a battlefield, and works well with their ability to remote control other robots. It helps make the taller, cloaked Thinkers more interesting and more useful. I thought it gave them a built-into-culture authoritative role that they can sense what their warriors cannot, then use that information they sense with more Logic than the warriors. The warriors, on the other hand, would only have those senses absolutely vital for their primary role of destruction: night vision and IR. Where the huge amount of text comes in is
with the extra two pages of materials covering the mechanon special
abilities. I find this VERY cumbersome. I think these could have been
expressed with the tables alone. Other than those issues, it's a good write-up. :) The detail given to the special abilities is vital, but not specifically in the descriptions of the races themselves. They should have explanations somewhere in the AER though (perhaps as additional detail in the Referee's sections). Otherwise, you get into tons of debates like we have on this site about a Dralasite's Lie Detection or a Vrusk's Comprehension. Thanks for all your critique - you have no idea how much I value it. Please read this: Mechanons are usually equipped with sensors that give them visual and audio input roughly equivalent to Human eyes and ears. The warriors are also equipped with infrared and starlight optics (they can see equally well in the dark, like a Yazirian) and have heightened hearing. The Thinker class is believed to be equipped with all available optical enhancement devices (infra-red, ultraviolet, magnifying, x-ray, etc.) and have extremely heightened hearing (it is said they can even decode radio frequencies such as those generated by chronocoms). I know I did a poor job of it, but analyzing these two paragraphs does specifically state that both the warriors and thinkers are equipped with IR. I stated the warriors had "Starlight Optics". But then in the second paragraph I state that the thinkers have all available optical enhancements... plus have a suite of "hearing" sensors. I guess it could have had better wording... but I think it's all there. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 17, 2008 - 9:09pm | I see. I think I glazed over the parenthetical. With your explanation, I agree, the thinkers, being the tacticians, should have IR and starlight optics with other optics. What's wrong with wanting everyone's articles to conform to my projects? Geesh.  |
March 18, 2008 - 4:23pm | I put some stuff from the article into AER. I ended up only putting those things in the Special Abilities section that were already in the original Mechanon text and didn't retain much of the additions from the article, as I felt uncomfortable with all those addititions, especially since the restrictions aren't really that restrictive. I did add the enhanced movement and built-in toolkit, and made the enhanced defenses a part of both classes because they have metal plating, but pretty much left everything else alone. With all their ability bonuses and Special Abilities as defined in the article, I think they are much more powerful than any other race. And after thinking about it, I'm not a fan of the Control Robots ability. I also adjusted the text to welcome making them player characters. Yes, they would make excellent opponents as NPC's, but they were included in Zeb's to be PC's, not NPC's. This is also why I didn't think it good to give them so many potent abilities. |
March 18, 2008 - 6:00pm | That's fine - it's your book. I personally liked it the way I playtested it, but your observations are valid. I disagree, however, with your suggestion that the restrictions are not really all that restrictive. The most heavily restrictive change was the Learning Disability. Example 1: In the original Zeb's Guide version of the Mechanon, not only would the character have had equal skill as Larry's Human, it wouldn't have to eat, sleep, or drink, and it would heal naturally just like a healthy human. It would have greater STR, LOG, PER, and LDR. Plus, it is a robot, thus immune to critical hits and stun effects. My decision to give the Thinkers less armor was balanced by their enhanced senses and ability to control robots (which is not too overpowered, but cool and mysterious... a player character could accomplish the same thing with a chronocom implant in the robot and a chronocom on his wrist, as long as the robot were his own to control... and I balanced the ability of the Thinker to take over another robot against the chances of someone with Robotics skill doing it the hard way... it's cool and mysterious, but not overpowered). Also, let's not forget that the Mechanon in the webzine can be flash-blinded for one turn, giving them a -15 to all actions, by a simple application of bright light when they're relying on their starlight optics. The Zeb's Guide version of night vision makes no mention of this. I think, despite the redefinition of abilities, the Mechanon I described are far more balanced for play. I consider the Mechanon in Issue 8 player character races. The restrictions are definitely restrictive, in my opinion. I'm not saying your version is somehow "wrong" - I'm just explaining my version that's all. :-) 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 18, 2008 - 6:47pm | I didn't mean that the restrictions weren't good. I like them and included them in AER. It's the Special Abilities that I pulled back. I just felt they're a little much. Too much text, too much complexity for one race, and while it wasn't too powerful in your playtesting, I think all that extra stuff gave them a major advantage over the other races despite slower level advancement. Which, by the way, I provided a different level progresstion that is more steady. The extra 5 per level seemed to make passing earlier levels too restrictive, while earning later levels being not near so restrictive and thus less balance against the special abilities. I know that your writeup works for you and that your playtesting showed that it isn't too powerful or unbalanced, but to me balance involves more than just if it can be played without becoming a god. To me, balance involves its whole interaction in comparison to the other races, mono-é-mono, along with playability. Playability means to me that there isn't a bunch of stuff you have to remember bound up with one feature (in this case, race). The presence of so many special abilities makes them high maintenance and essentially turns them into swiss knives, the presence of which can make them far more preferable to any other race. My point being, a Mechanon with all those abilities doesn't need a band of adventurers having their back. I think a group of players would find the Mechanon 2.0 character in the group to be stealing all their thunder and would be the last one standing almost every single time. |
March 18, 2008 - 8:34pm | I didn't mean that the restrictions weren't good. I like them and included them in AER. It's the Special Abilities that I pulled back. I just felt they're a little much. Too much text, too much complexity for one race, and while it wasn't too powerful in your playtesting, I think all that extra stuff gave them a major advantage over the other races despite slower level advancement. Which, by the way, I provided a different level progresstion that is more steady. The extra 5 per level seemed to make passing earlier levels too restrictive, while earning later levels being not near so restrictive and thus less balance against the special abilities. Actually, you're missing the point of them. Of course they're more restrictive at early "levels" of play. That's the whole point. You see, there is nothing about a Mechanon that cannot be simulated with equipment eventually. Electrostunners, exoskeletons, vitasalt pills, various forms of optical enhancement devices, weapons, defenses... whatever. Therefore, since the Mechanon in the 'zine gets a boost early on, but later (at higher levels of play) his advantages aren't so significant, that's why I chose to limit early advancement as a penalty. Well anyway - do it any way ya like, maybe yours will even be better, who knows. :-P I know that your writeup works for you and that your playtesting showed that it isn't too powerful or unbalanced, but to me balance involves more than just if it can be played without becoming a god. To me, balance involves its whole interaction in comparison to the other races, mono-é-mono, along with playability. Playability means to me that there isn't a bunch of stuff you have to remember bound up with one feature (in this case, race). The presence of so many special abilities makes them high maintenance and essentially turns them into swiss knives, the presence of which can make them far more preferable to any other race. My point being, a Mechanon with all those abilities doesn't need a band of adventurers having their back. I think a group of players would find the Mechanon 2.0 character in the group to be stealing all their thunder and would be the last one standing almost every single time. I totally disagree. Since nearly every ability of a Mechanon can be simulated with gear, your logic would also mean that a character with a couple thousand credits to spend will never need another player character in his group... gaming isn't about min-maxing, it's about the game, the story, the interaction between players and the Referee. The "balance" I provided wasn't really difficult... and the special abilities granted by the species aren't all that numerous. But like I said, it's your book - have fun with it.3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 18, 2008 - 9:36pm | The advantage also comes from the fact that they don't have to pay for those materials, allowing them to spend that money on other things, even able to save the money and buy far better things than anyone else can. They don't even have to buy food or powerpacks. You could give them 100 abilities and still use the points you made,
but that means they have to buy a hundred less items and have that much
advantage over other characters. Now, what would offset that is the requirement for repair costs. Even if they repair themselves, they have to acquire the materials. However, I think much of what is coloring my view is that I prefer to stay within the realm of what was originally intended. You pointed out good restrictions that would be likely and I think balance out the Mechanon from the original write-up. But on top of that, the article gives even more power to the Mechanon. I just thought it wasn't necessary, though admittedly it would be very neat to see it in action. It's a great article, and I'm not knocking it. I'm just trying to work out a less extreme balance for keeping the number of changes in the AER low. There's a lot of great material I'll be using from the article. I'm just choosing not to add a few of the article's additional Special Abilities. |
March 18, 2008 - 10:05pm | The advantage also comes from the fact that they don't have to pay for those materials, allowing them to spend that money on other things, even able to save the money and buy far better things than anyone else can. They don't even have to buy food or powerpacks. You could give them 100 abilities and still use the points you made,
but that means they have to buy a hundred less items and have that much
advantage over other characters. Quite true. Good point.Now, what would offset that is the requirement for repair costs. Even if they repair themselves, they have to acquire the materials. However, I think much of what is coloring my view is that I prefer to stay within the realm of what was originally intended. You pointed out good restrictions that would be likely and I think balance out the Mechanon from the original write-up. But on top of that, the article gives even more power to the Mechanon. I just thought it wasn't necessary, though admittedly it would be very neat to see it in action. It's a great article, and I'm not knocking it. I'm just trying to work out a less extreme balance for keeping the number of changes in the AER low. There's a lot of great material I'll be using from the article. I'm just choosing not to add a few of the article's additional Special Abilities. Whatever :-P Like I said, I'm sure your version will be cool too. I didn't take any offense from your post, no worries.I always say that sci fi has many flavors and they're all pretty darned good. My playtests proved fun for us, so it's what we'll use. When AER is done, I'll probably like elements of it and totally disregard elements of it. Just like all the material in the webzine... not all of it is for everyone's tastes. So far the feedback on the Mechanon has been great, but your negative feedback is also good to hear. Now if someone could just make ifshnits cool, I'd be a happy man haha... it's a frickin midget. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
March 19, 2008 - 7:01am | Correction, it's a hairy dwarf. Don't forget, "midget" in the community of little people is like the "N" word.  By the way, I've been trying to get them worked out, but considering what was done with the Mechanon, I'm going to work towards a bolder reworking. |
 March 21, 2008 - 9:53am | Just to change the subject a bit...I thought have always thought the Mechanons were really cool and had a lot of potential. It was great that we learned more about them in Zebulon's, and that they got their own planet. What about Mechanon ships? But I always wondered why there were never any mention of ships or KH scenarios for them. Of course, TSR killed the game right after Zeb's, and I guess that this is area that was meant to be developed by a referee. It just seems to me that after the Mechanon revolt, once they developed interstellar travel and colonized their own world, these guys would start producing ships en mass and start expanding their space. Even if their "fascist tendencies" had wained, their interests might conflict with the UPF and the Rim Coalition. Also, like any other race, they might want to explore and trade with their neighbors. So what does everyone think? Has anyone ever created Mech ships? BTW, I enjoyed the Mech 2.0 article. _______________________________________________________________________________ CleanCutRogue wrote: Now if someone could just make ifshnits cool, I'd be a happy man haha... it's a frickin midget. _______________________________________________________________________________ Amen! I have never liked the Ifshnits. The Humma and Osakar are cool, but not these frickin midgets! |
 March 24, 2008 - 10:33am | Hmm, Mech ships....the one game I used the Mechs, I just went ahead and made their ships smaller-scale Berserker warships(from Saberhagen's series of the same name). Basically generic Frontier warships with Mech brains hardwired into their systems, with their capital warships controlled by three or more hardwired Mech brains(possibly a Thinker's and a pair of Warriors'), with the brains being harvested from the best of the best amongst Thinkers and Warriors, or those whose bodies are too badly-damaged to heal using Mech tech. These are just general outlines...I don't have hard and fast conversion stats, cos, well, the Mechs have never been my cup of tea(too much AIs/robots/cyborgs run amok sci-fi of the Berserker/Doctor Who/BSG variety for my taste, putting that plot device up there with time travel). Hopefully, this helps. ______________________________________________________________________________________ The article was excellent, Bill, and Shell is to be complemented on his artwork, it is a vast improvement over the GoBot looking drawings in ZEB's. "You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so." —Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation |
March 24, 2008 - 11:01am | the Mechs have never been my cup of tea(too much AIs/robots/cyborgs run amok sci-fi of the Berserker/Doctor Who/BSG variety for my taste, putting that plot device up there with time travel). That's exactly why I like them as the majestic non-violent PC's of the article and the image in the article. They're not so much machine that they're out-and-out cold, and are not tropishly angry. They can have personality and make their own choices, even having an ideology. They're more than just AI or robots run amok. They're a sentient race. More than Data, less than human, and have metal shells instead of flesh. That all makes them novel to me. |
March 24, 2008 - 7:39pm | I've always liked them as well, that's why I bothered with the article. I've liked them better than the other races offered in that book (notably, the Ifshnits and Hummas... my GOD why did they allow those pictures to be published?!) The Mechanon, though, were so cool that I was able to ignore the crappy image and use the race anyway. When Shell provided me that image of them, I was very inspired and they will definitely make appearances in my Alpha Dawn games to come (they've already been in two sittings prior to the release of Issue 8... yes, I playtest all the stuff I publish with my name on it. It's nice to have a nerdy family haha) 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
