 November 21, 2007 - 9:53am | I think it will be important to put together a comphrehensive document of Sathar canon material as the foundation of any new and creative expansions. I'd love to see a book by book summary/synopsis of Sathar specific information from AD Rulebook to Zebs. |
 November 21, 2007 - 10:18am | Nice idea. dont forget to include info from the published modules. Wish I had time to put that together soon. Will have to see what I can come up with over the next few weeks. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
November 21, 2007 - 2:39pm | Oh yeah, when I said "from AD Rulebook to Zebs" I was including every module in-between. With a book to book synopsis/summary of info, a pretty solid overview could be laid out for everything else to build on. There is probably some interesting info from Dragon articles and d20 Modern/Future sources that could be collated and into an appendix of sorts. Honestly, I think this would end up being a really great resource if done properly. |
 November 22, 2007 - 10:07pm | Well Full Bleed - we went over this at the other site, and it seems that much of the info is incomplete or contradictory. So the whole "canon" thing is difficult to grasp. We concluded that the Sathar should pretty much be a "salad bar" where each ref determines what they want to do with the worms based on each individual campaign. |
November 22, 2007 - 11:55pm | I suspect that there is plenty of contradiction. After all, the first AD rulebook lays almost no groundwork, choosing instead to be mysterious. It's also fairly clear that SF material didn't have a lot of oversight with no real unifying voice or editor to watchdog consistency. As for "incompleteness" that's where the flights of individual fancy come into play. It's what we don't know that inspires us to create and fill in the blanks. Regardless, there *is* canon material and having a non-interpretive reference document is something that would be very useful... because when it comes right down to it, that material is the only common ground homebrew expansions have. |
November 23, 2007 - 11:00am | Yes, but FullBleed - that material is scant. And in some cases contradictory. But hey, by all means herd all the cats and put them here in the Doc section. But I assure you, it is woefully inadequate. Refs must fill in the gaps themselves, and they are so big you could drive a HoverTruck through them. Just a quick sampling of the craziness: First, the Sathar tried to kill everyone they met (AD Expanded and Volturnus). Then, they had "allies" - the Zuraqqor (Ref screen mini module, and, amazingly, the "alien" counters). Then, they enslaved people (War Machine module, the Memnhe). Then they negotiated (Zebs, timeline of SW2). So right there it is pretty contradictory. Myself, I am down with the killing and the slavery, and totally opposed to the allies and the negotiation. To me, it is unthinkable that the Sathar would engage in those kinds of activities - unless the Zuraqqor were really slaves and not allies. In terms of the negotiation, I could see it in a tactical sense (they have a hostage situation in the War Machine that is fine by me) but in terms of actually sitting down with the UPF and working out a peace treaty - well that is one of the many reasons why Zebs makes me want to hurl. But maybe you could have a ref who wants a more devious Sathar... A "kinder, gentler" Sathar who engage in diplomacy and cultivate allies. That's fine by me, but it's not my Sathar. Nor a lot of other refs, from what I have read. However, it would still be legit SF, since the material is so contradictory and incomplete. Many conclusions can be drawn. |
 November 23, 2007 - 4:02pm | Yes ... I also was struck by some of the self contradictory material in TSR's published material. For myself, back when I was playing I had more of a system of the Sathar of there being many powerful clans that were constantly plotting against each other ... but always maintaining a degree of obedience to those at the top ... rather like the drow families as fleshed out in 2eADnD. To my way of thinking this would provide more opportunities for not only allies with other races (which could easily be cast aside or retained). I fully agree about religion being the force that holds the society together though. Again, a la the Drow. Fully despicable enemies. :D @}-,-`- "It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between." – Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), [i]Tsurezure-Gusa (1340) |
 November 23, 2007 - 5:19pm | Yes, but FullBleed - that material is scant. And in some cases contradictory. But from the very beginning they had Sathar spies. These were people from the other races. So clearly they didn't just kill indescriminately. They are clearly conquerors. The Zuraqqor may have offered themselves to the Sathar, knowing the Sathar to be superior. Perhaps the Sathar had beaten the Zuraqqor into submission. They might have had other reasons, but it was clear that the Sathar could be talked to at some point. As for enslaving, if you can't get them to offer themselves willingly, then they would scoop out the brains of captured enemies and then use their bodies to their will as cyborgs. I don't think any of that contradicts. People just assume that the fact that no Sathar had been captured alive and the statement "They have tried to
kill every alien creature they have met in the Frontier, usually with alarming
success" assumes they are relentless killers until complete genocide has been accomplished, but there's nothing that actually says that. Note that it says "every alien creature...in the Frontier." It doesn't say every alien creature without qualification, but qualifies it with "in the Frontier". Also don't forget about their ability to hynotize. They can hypnotize a world's leaders to submit to their will. The spies may be acquired in a similar way. They may have a specific means by which they accomplish conquering that is not traditional. They may be trying to wear down the Frontier's defenses, or trying to put them off guard by misdirecting its resources, or any number of other tactics. None of the above information directly contradicts, but may be explained.But hey, by all means herd all the cats and put them here in the Doc section. But I assure you, it is woefully inadequate. Refs must fill in the gaps themselves, and they are so big you could drive a HoverTruck through them. Just a quick sampling of the craziness: First, the Sathar tried to kill everyone they met (AD Expanded and Volturnus). Then, they had "allies" - the Zuraqqor (Ref screen mini module, and, amazingly, the "alien" counters). Then, they enslaved people (War Machine module, the Memnhe). Then they negotiated (Zebs, timeline of SW2). So right there it is pretty contradictory. Myself, I am down with the killing and the slavery, and totally opposed to the allies and the negotiation. To me, it is unthinkable that the Sathar would engage in those kinds of activities - unless the Zuraqqor were really slaves and not allies. In terms of the negotiation, I could see it in a tactical sense (they have a hostage situation in the War Machine that is fine by me) but in terms of actually sitting down with the UPF and working out a peace treaty - well that is one of the many reasons why Zebs makes me want to hurl. But maybe you could have a ref who wants a more devious Sathar... A "kinder, gentler" Sathar who engage in diplomacy and cultivate allies. That's fine by me, but it's not my Sathar. Nor a lot of other refs, from what I have read. However, it would still be legit SF, since the material is so contradictory and incomplete. Many conclusions can be drawn. |
November 23, 2007 - 5:29pm | Good point about the spies Corjay ... I fully agree with you on that one. @}-,-`- "It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between." – Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), [i]Tsurezure-Gusa (1340) |
November 23, 2007 - 5:56pm | Every alien in the Frontier does not mean every alien? Seems like a little lawyering there... Again, the fact that the Sathar have so many different interpretations just speaks to the paucity and inconsistency of the material. The fact that they have spies does not take anything away from their genocidal tendencies. Not at all. They have developed spying to deal with people they can't destroy or enslave - the UPF. The concepts that you mentioned about the Zuraqqor having their brains popped out and whatnot are fine with me - that indicates slaves rather than allies. Any kind of coercion like that seems very Sathar-like to me. |
November 27, 2007 - 9:41am | What about the mention of a Sathar cast system in Face of the Enemy/The War Machine? I thought they were like the Borg, ruled by one head cheese but it appears they have rivals within their society. |
 November 23, 2011 - 8:58am | Just to resurrect this discussion a little (after 4 years) I think that there is an easy explanation for most everything that is said here and wOOt hit the nail on the head. *---------------------------------------------------------------------* Seawolf's Den - www.seawolfsden.net *---------------------------------------------------------------------* |
November 24, 2011 - 11:42am | Perhaps a good explanation why the sathar have been unable to take the Frontier Sector by force is their inner struggles for dominance. The caste that wants to obliterate and nuke is jedion's idea of an race that has not evolved technologically in decades. Wouldn't it be interesting to have one sathar caste enslave another? |
 November 24, 2011 - 12:04pm | With out a significant rewrite of canon you have to explain why the sathar were a space faring race 900 years ago when the first visited Voltinus and are god-awful powerful today after all that time. The only thing that really makes sense is technological stagnation. Which suggest that they are not inquisitive or creative but have learned to enslave others and steal their technology to improve. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
