 November 15, 2007 - 2:29pm | Refer to: Interpretting the Rolls. Seems to me that the actual ability score is irrelevant in d20 system... the only thing of value is the ability score modifier. For example, a character who has a DEX score of 16-17 is treated identically throughout all of the rules, each providing a +3 modifier to all rolls. Since the score is not relavent, then why not just figure the conversion out using the modifier? A SF character's ability score would be 45+(5xModifier). For example, a d20 character with a STR of 16 (Modifier of +3) would have a Star Frontiers score of (45+5x3=) 60%. Likewise, a Star Frontiers character with a LOG of 65% would be converted to a d20 character with an Intelligence of (65-45)/5... or +4... which is a d20 score of 18. Scores below average would go the same way: a score of 30 in Star Frontiers would be the equivalent of (30-45=-15, -15/5=) -3, which would translate to a d20 score of 5. I guess either way works, but this was my take when I initially considered things. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 November 15, 2007 - 2:43pm | Actually, you still need the ability score for unskilled checks (the kind not requiring a skill), such as comprehension checks or Strength checks. Besides that, some skills give bonuses to an ability, I believe. |
November 15, 2007 - 4:43pm | I'm sorry Corjay - but I am not sure what you're referring to. I play D&D3.5 and d20 Modern - we only have ability scores to determine the bonus/penalty to apply to d20 rolls. What comprehension or strength checks are you talking about? When we make a strength check in D&D or d20M, it's a d20 roll modified by the str bonus against a difficulty number. The only purpose for the ability score is to derive the modifier. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 15, 2007 - 5:29pm | It's been a very long time since I played D&D (since 2e) and I haven't had a chance to buckle down and play SWRPG:SE, so some of the application stuff is not quite ingrained in my mental library. |
November 15, 2007 - 5:31pm | So, since what you say is likely the case, I don't see why your idea wouldn't work. Just use the SF stats to generate the d20 modifiers. It's a good point. |
November 20, 2007 - 12:29am | I just realized why you have to use the ability scores instead of the ability bonuses: ability progression. When you go from 10 to 11 in d20, your bonus doesn't improve. But in SF, if you go from 40 to 45, your bonus does improve, giving SF a more gradual ability improvement than d20. If you just go from d20 ability bonuses, then going up one bonus is like going up 10 points in SF. In the converse, if you go up 5 points in SF, you're not necessarily going up a point in d20. |
November 23, 2007 - 10:20pm | I just realized why you have to use the ability scores instead of the ability bonuses: ability progression. When you go from 10 to 11 in d20, your bonus doesn't improve. But in SF, if you go from 40 to 45, your bonus does improve, giving SF a more gradual ability improvement than d20. If you just go from d20 ability bonuses, then going up one bonus is like going up 10 points in SF. In the converse, if you go up 5 points in SF, you're not necessarily going up a point in d20. Going up 2 ability score points in D20 gives you a +1 to appropriate d20 rolls... that's a bonus of +5% (1/20). So really, each 2 points of ability score is worth +5% in Alpha Dawn percentages. Since in D&D the average score is 10-11, and in Alpha Dawn it's 45, the conversion should be pretty straightforward and rely solely on the bonus, not the score. For example, a character with an Alpha Dawn ability score of 60 is +15 over average, and accomplishes tasks with that ability score 15% more effectively, the equivalent of a bonus of +3. He has a d20 system ability score of either 16 or 17. Since the score doesn't directly translate to a specific ability score, I think the score itself is pretty senseless.The table below explains the conversions in my humble opinion.
Or, for the mathematically inclined: SF=45 + (d20adj x 5) d20adj= (SF-45)/5 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 24, 2007 - 2:04am | The problem is, that 20-21 does not compare to SF70. 20-21 is heading into godlike strength, which is related more by SF86-95. All the 30-70 does is keep people from having a totally screwed up die roll, but a character easily moves beyond 70 through the use of experience points. Likewise, in d20, characters can move beyond 18, but have to do so through experience and grant from the GM. However, 18 is still yet stronger than 70. If we use 11 as the mean for d20 and 45 as the mean for SF, then a SF10 point progression for every 1 d20 bonus is what results best. I did try it your way, but the +5 bonus is ridiculous for a first level human. It just doesn't work. |
November 24, 2007 - 9:39am | I'm just talking statistically. If someone with an Intelligence score of 16 gets a bonus of +3 to d20 rolls, that means he statistically receives +15% over an average character. Makes perfect sense to me :) Having played D&D and d20Modern for years, I can appreciate your opinion, though. Starting characters seldom start play with a score as high as 20, though it is quite possible through racial adjustments, only rare. But if you look at the the ability score determination table from Alpha Dawn, there is only a 96-00 (5%) chance someone would start with a score I equated to D&D's score of 20. A score of 20 isn't godly if a starting level PC can have it. And the human's +5 to any one score - if you use that ability from Star Frontiers (which I don't think the d20 Future version did), results in a bonus of +1 to a d20adj score (because my opinion is we don't need to record ability scores, just the adjustments... a Strength of +3, a Dexterity of -1, etc.) I know some of you are beholders of certain sacred cows in d20 (which I'm not). If you think the actual ability score is required then go ahead and record it. But I personally see a numeric difference between a STR of 45 and a STR of 50 in Alpha Dawn. In D&D, if that determines whether I start with a 10 or 11, then you've robbed me of a 5% bonus to succeed. Just my opinion. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 24, 2007 - 3:43pm | No sacred cow here. I'm talking statistically as well. The term "sacred cow" suggests that we're talking about apples and oranges and that someone's turning the orange into a sacred cow, but that's not what's going on here. Your suggestion is not an alternative because it distorts the transferal between the system. Anyone that wants to transfer from d20 to d100 in your system has to eat a power dump if above average, and anyone that wants to transfer from d100 to d20 in your system is given a gonzo power boost if above average, and the same in the converse if they have less than average in an ability, the suffer a lot more or a lot less depending on which way you're transfering (to or from d20). a +5 in d20 is like a +25 in Star Frontiers. For every 5 points spent in Star Frontiers, you get 1 point return in d20, because 20 divides into 100 five times, which you seem to understand, but misapply in the following statement: I'm just talking statistically. If someone with an Intelligence score of 16 gets a bonus of +3 to d20 rolls, that means he statistically receives +15% over an average character. Makes perfect sense to me :) You're starting with the bonus and translating a 1 into a 5, instead of starting with the ability. Star Frontiers does not use ability bonuses, so one can only compare abilities to abilities, not abilities to bonuses. Having played D&D and d20Modern for years, I can appreciate your opinion, though. Starting characters seldom start play with a score as high as 20, though it is quite possible through racial adjustments, only rare. But if you look at the the ability score determination table from Alpha Dawn, there is only a 96-00 (5%) chance someone would start with a score I equated to D&D's score of 20. That 96-00 equals 1 out d20, or a roll of a perfect 1 on a d20, but you have to remember, you don't roll a d20 to determine ability scores. You roll 3d6, because the average is supposed to be between 3 and 18, not 1 and 20. I'm also only talking about humans in both systems, as it is the base mean. +5 in d20 is much too powerful to compare to a 70 in Star Frontiers. A score of 20 isn't godly if a starting level PC can have it. And the human's +5 to any one score - if you use that ability from Star Frontiers (which I don't think the d20 Future version did), results in a bonus of +1 to a d20adj score (because my opinion is we don't need to record ability scores, just the adjustments... a Strength of +3, a Dexterity of -1, etc.) It's godly for a human. You're talking about adding racial bonuses, but I'm talking about the straight roll comparison BEFORE adding bonuses. That's why I said I was using humans for the comparison. We're comparing dice rolls here, not races. I know some of you are beholders of certain sacred cows in d20 (which I'm not). If you think the actual ability score is required then go ahead and record it. But I personally see a numeric difference between a STR of 45 and a STR of 50 in Alpha Dawn. In D&D, if that determines whether I start with a 10 or 11, then you've robbed me of a 5% bonus to succeed. Just my opinion. There are plenty of differences between the systems and how they calculate probabilities. What you're saying here is that you want a bonus for a bonus just for the sake of having the bonus. Just because one system has a bonus there, you want there to be a bonus in the compared system, even if it produces a significant increase to the character's capabilities in the d20 system. This ignores that Star Frontiers has and has the right to a more gradual power adjustment than d20. It's like saying that if Star Frontiers ran from 1 point incriment in the d100 system instead of 5 point incriment, that each point would still earn a +1 in the d20 system. Then the comparison would become rediculous. My point is, instead of trying to provide a bonus for a bonus, how about just going with the fact that in d20, it takes 2 ability points to equal a bonus. For Star Frontiers abilities, that means two 5 ability point incriments to produce a bonus in d20. You can still end up having a 57 ability score in Star frontiers and it's not going to give you a comparable bonus in d20 from 56. |
November 24, 2007 - 6:09pm | I just wish you could understand how wrong you are. A single point of ability score is not equal to a +1 in 20. You never apply your score in any way to any roll whatsoever. The ability score adjustment is all that applies to d20 rolls, therefore each 2 points of ability score are worth 5%. It's really that simple. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 24, 2007 - 7:05pm | I think you've misunderstood me again. I never said that a single point was worth a +1 bonus. You're starting from the premise of bonus to ability, instead of ability to ability. Yes, the bonuses matter to playing d20, but they do not matter when transferring abilties. First, you transfer the abilties, THEN you determine the bonus. Even still, if the bonuses were all there were, it would be 10 SF ability points to 1 d20 bonus, just like's it's 2 d20 ability points to 1 d20 bonus. You need strength for strength and intelligence for intelligence. That is, capabilities should be straight across, and not dependent on d20 bonuses. Give me an example of how +5 Str bonus in d20 compares to 70 STR in Star Frontiers, damage-wise, lifting ability, or jumping, each unskilled. When I played the old AD&D system, there was no way 70 STR compared to 20-21 STR. I'm pretty sure that hasn't changed much for the d20 system. |
November 24, 2007 - 8:53pm | Well... first let's look at average joes and the rules from both games. They're surprisingly similar: In d20 system, a STR of 10 is encumbered (half movement rate) when it lifts 30kg, and is fully encumbered (cannot move) when it lifts 45kg. A character can lift 90kg but can only take a few steps and can do nothing else while he does this. In Star Frontiers, an average STR of 45 is encumbered (half movement rate) when it lifts 23kg, and is fully encumbered (cannot move) when it lifts 45kg. A character can lift 90kg but can only take a few steps and can do nothing else while he does this. The comparison breaks down horribly. According to the d20 system, a STR of 18 (the highest score that may be rolled) is encumbered (half movement rate) when it lifts 91kg, and is fully encumbered (can't move) when it carries 136kg. A character with 18 strength can lift 272kg but can only take a few steps. In SF, characters aren't considered that strong. According to SF, a STR of 70 (the highest score that may be rolled) is encumbered (half movement rate) when it lifts only 35kg, and is fully encumbered (can't move) when it carries 70kg. A character with 70 strength can lift 140kg but only can take a few steps. So you can't really compare by lifting/carrying capacity alone. It just doesn't translate. So that's why my theory leans instead on the dice rolling probability of rolling the d20. In d20 system, the only type of action test is a d20 roll, where a bonus of +1 is equal to a bonus of +5%, pure and simple. Another thing worthy of mentioning: a score > 18 isn't divine. I rolled an 18 while making a character, and the race I chose gave a +2 racial adjustment to DEX. I'm currently 17th level (nowhere NEAR divine in 3.5!!!) and have a DEX score of 24, raw and natural and totally legal. Others who play regularly will attest that this is possible and not altogether uncommon. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 24, 2007 - 9:23pm | and yes, a STR of 20-21 has changed much from the AD&D days Corjay. It has changed plenty. Having a STR of 25 isn't peak divine-level STR anymore. It's something players can achieve if they rolled well, have racial bonuses, and/or choose where to put their +1's per 4 levels. Having characters exceed 20th level is also no longer a huge deal, as advancement rates are different. Some feats from some sourcebooks can also increase effective ability scores. Also - you can't compare damage bonuses from STR's either. Those don't numerically translate at all, and damage capacity is dramatically different between the games. These reasons are why I feel the only way to properly translate - if we want to have any statistic accuracy - is to translate between chance to succeed and chance to succeed - which means between SF score and d20 score adjustment. Chance to succeed is the only way I can deduce which translates directly. But really - this is your project - you do whatever you want, ok? There are plenty of opinions out there... I just have one of 'em. I'm sure the game will be fun translated any way you think is good. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 November 24, 2007 - 9:29pm | In my game here is what you would get 1-3 can't be rolled as natural so they would = 30 in sf 4-5 =35 6-7=40 8-9=45 10-11=50 12-13=55 14-15=60 16-17=65 18=70 anything beyond that would be like this 19=73 20=76 21=79 22=80 23=81 24=82 25=83 26=84 27=85 and so-on. I don't care how much the other game system says they can carry in sf you carry X amount of kg. By the way once you hit 100 in my game you are done uless you have an implant or other augmentation that is not of natural flesh and taking extra vitamins doesn't make a difference. If you need to lift more than a Str/Sta 100 in sf get a workbot that can lift 1,000kg. And that is that. And your lucky to get that. |
November 24, 2007 - 11:29pm | Bill, the statistical data hasn't been provided. |
November 24, 2007 - 11:33pm | The only statistical data is the probability of rolling a d20 - all rolls use that single die roll, and all rolls are modified by the appropriate ability score. You quoted the statistic yourself... 1 in 20 is 5% thus each bonus of +1 is +5%... therefore, a score of 60 is 15% higher than an average score of 45... and is therefore statistically identical to having a +3 in d20. What more statistics are you requesting? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 24, 2007 - 11:37pm | You seem to have a misconception what the ability score is for. It's useless. Has zero statistical use in the game system. The only reason they exist is to derive the adjustment. They are never used as target numbers, never used as anything. Only used to look up the adjustment (a penalty/bonus to d20 rolls). In Star Frontiers, having a 50% attribute gives you a statistical 5% advantage over all actions related to that ability over an average joe. You can't not see that, right? Well if we have a score of 50 adapt to a score of 11 in d20, then you've lost that advantage over an average joe. It's that simple. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 24, 2007 - 11:51pm | The only statistical data is the probability of
rolling a d20 - all rolls use that single die roll, and all rolls are
modified by the appropriate ability score. You quoted the statistic
yourself... 1 in 20 is 5% thus each bonus of +1 is +5%... therefore, a
score of 60 is 15% higher than an average score of 45... and is
therefore statistically identical to having a +3 in d20. What more
statistics are you requesting?
Something about the way you just stated it made it make more sense, even though the first half of the statement is nearly identical to an earlier statement.Thank you for battling until you conquored my understanding (and for not getting beligerant.  That's what I like about you). I wasn't getting that angle until just now. |
November 25, 2007 - 12:51am | lol no problem. But really, I'm not saying my idea is the only one, only that it's my opinion :P 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 November 26, 2007 - 3:53pm | My playtest group actually threw a conversion out, the issue of fair ability score progression kicked our a@@. We have opted to do more a campaign sourcebook type thing. However the crux of this is, how are you playing? Bill's solution of only using the adjustment works fine for a straight conversion, maybe with the modification that says no advancement past a score of 20. The other route is to convert to d20 scores, like a 45 for SF is equal to an 10 or 11, and then advancement is d20 from that point on. This is the biggest conversion problem out of all of them. That is why we opted to not convert and then convert back....meaning make an SF character a d20 character then play d20, and not keep going back and forth. Mess with the fish....you get the bone!!! |
November 26, 2007 - 4:06pm | Bill, after seeing what you said in the Dice Rolls thread, I just realized that there's a problem with treating the conversion straight between d100 and d20. The Star Frontiers d100 non-linear table (translating a linear die result into a prescribed non-linear result) follows a different bell curve than the d20's simetrical bell curve. I think we need to determine the exact difference between the bell curves to determine what retains the best equillibrium between the systems. What do you think? |
November 26, 2007 - 4:21pm | That's a valid point for certain - but I'm starting to wonder how much effort should go into exact precise conversions, despite my formula. I sincerely doubt many people will convert their characters, and if they do it'll just be a one-way conversion. Having a formula to cover NPC conversions and the occasional PC conversion should be good enough. Maybe analyzing it statistically is a good academic idea, but I'm not sure how much effort we should place in it. Doc has a good point. If you want to truly analyze the percent chance of getting each score on a flat 3d6 roll, then convert it to the same score from that chance from d100 system... it won't work exactly right because in D&D and other d20 games, you seldom roll 3d6 for your scores haha... you roll 4d6 and drop the lowest die, you allot points, you do all sorts of things that breaks the probability curves. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
November 26, 2007 - 4:33pm | Oh yeah, I forgot about the new ways to fudge (I've read that much). I guess I can just work on that and present something later. I guess I could find the average curve in all the fudge and then compare that. Star Frontiers makes high scores uncommon, while the fudge in d20 makes low rolls extremely improbable. |
