 October 1, 2007 - 6:26am | Isn't that what site-wide announcements are for? |
 October 1, 2007 - 6:40am | Only a site ref may send site-wide announcements, unless you're referring to the automatic announcements of a new project (but these can be turned off remember). Plus - some people will have PMs turned off. Flash is currently beyond my skills, though I can't believe it's that hard for me to learn. hm... I could do it without flash, simply using an automated refresh or I could maybe download all the images and just change based on time as client-side java... but all of these things (including the flash) will be adding bandwidth to the site. Simplest approach would be just an image that rolls like the current header image, with page refreshes. Where do you propose it would go? Are you saying to place it overlapping on the header image, covering up the art that shows up there? I think nearly everyone would want their project in that advertisement block, meaning it just becomes a rolling list of all projects on the site, ya know? Currently - we have several ways in which new projects are placed in people's faces:
I think your idea is cool sounding, but I think in reality it would just be one more way in which people are shown your project exists - aren't those four ways sufficient? The project announcement for new projects was a cool idea, but right away I was asked to make a checkbox in the user profile to turn those off... 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 1, 2007 - 9:37am | Actually, I don't think everyone would want their project advertised, particularly if it's not done or doesn't have any needs. The only one of those that affects older projects is the last one, and people aren't going to want to weed through all those all the time if a lot of projects end up in the list. Along those lines, it allows people to know what's current and gives people a short list of the worthwhile stuff. If there ends up being a lot of people wanting to advertise their project, you could just run the ads with an expiration date and people renew the ad when it expires. |
October 1, 2007 - 9:38am | By the way, you could put the ad next to the poll (reducing the width of the poll). |
October 1, 2007 - 10:42am | OH... I see where you're going with this. If someone isn't part of the project, and you have something big to announce (such as "This project is done" or "Is there an artist out there good at doing cybernetic rats" or whatever), you want to be able to have an add or something. Placing it to the side of the poll isn't a bad idea. I could make real-estate for that by compressing the poll I suppose. I wouldn't need much, maybe 100px. I don't think it requires flash or anything... just a new add randomly selected each time the front page is viewed would be enough. However - I don't think this will successfully announce anything about an existing product. I mean - even if only 5 project managers are placing adds about their projects... will people even notice it there? I often spend hours and hours on the site and seldom even look at the front page of the site. "What's New" is really the place I go to for site interaction. Maybe add space on the What's New page might make more sense? Idea: What about just using the general forums for such announcements? You can make a forum topic in the general forums that has any graphics and any add stuff you'd like. Heck - people can even comment on it; it's a forum. It shows up in their What's New page, and also shows up on the front page with a "New" indicator. For example...
3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. | ||||
October 1, 2007 - 10:58am | First, if it's dynamic, they'll definitely notice it. Second, the fact that it's right in front of them, they'll notice it. Third, the fact that it's an image, they'll notice it. Fourth, the fact that it's on the front page, they'll notice it. Topics are fine, but often get ignored at a glance and also don't stick in people's minds, besides the fact that they get pushed down and off the page, sometimes pretty quickly. What's New only shows up once and then gets marked as read and off the page. A forum topic is not needed to discuss a request for new members unless there's something wrong with the request. As for your sample, I was just thinking an image only. It's not too hard to design an image with some kind of wording. It would literally be an ad. Maybe the ad would require preapproval, seeing as it would be generated to the front page. |
October 1, 2007 - 12:51pm | Then I have to spend time learning flash... I don't specifically mind your idea, I just wonder if it will successfully provide what you're hoping it will, and not just a busy spot on the front page that takes up a bunch of bandwidth. I'm not being a nay-sayer - so far I've provided nearly every option people have asked for. Can someone else provide an opinion here? If more people think it's a good idea, I'll start devoting some time to learning flash... 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 1, 2007 - 1:16pm | /thinking out loud/ I think advertisments are a Bad Thing (TM). everyone is going to want an add, so your just re-doing the project page list via flash/images/rotation/whatever. I can see some other options. the Projects page is kinda long, maybe projects that are on page 2 won't get as much attention, right? so, perhaps a couple ideas
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October 1, 2007 - 1:36pm | w00t - lemme see if I understand your description: You say to just have a spot on the front page that displays like a random project in a minimalist fashion (logo and title only)? And have this roll with page refreshes or even on its own through flash or java. and the second part of your post... are you saying that /Projects would be more effective of a list if instead of giving all the details I currently display, to instead just provide a grid view of logo/titles? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 1, 2007 - 1:44pm | The word is "synoptic". You could skip the dynamic aspect. That is just to allow more ads to be shown during a session. A person could sit and watch the procession of ads if they wanted to. I don't think putting a random rotation of projects at the top of the projects list accomplishes much. Who is to say what belongs in the synopsis? How does it advertise any of their needs? They're just going to get lost in the bundle. If it randomly shows ALL the projects, you lose the aspect of bringing the ones who want to be at the top to the top. If it's by rating, again, the same thing. I'm open to new ideas, but the key is letting those who want their projects advertised or having a need to float to the top and be seen by all. The front page is the best place to do that. |
October 1, 2007 - 1:58pm | Another thing of relegating it to the projects page is that the only people who are going to visit the projects page, beyond the random browser, are people looking for something in particular. Most people are going to browse through it every few weeks, thus not seeing any needs or being reminded that the project is there more frequently. Maybe it's that you all don't fully appreciate where I'm coming from. Advertising is EFFECTIVE. Why do you think companies want their logo on your car door and your child's stroller? If advertisers were only allowed to put their logo on advertising bulletin boards only where their product is sold, how could they be much more popular than anyone else? You go to the grocery store and every advertiser has a little advertisement on the wall, is anyone going to stand there and stare at the wall until they've found what they like and THEN go shopping? Very few. Take a look at the Wizards of the Coast main page. They advertise their newest or best selling projects on the front page. If they didn't, fewer people would visit the site to browse and only the people that are there for a specific purpose would visit regularly, and fewer still would bother browsing the site at all and not very frequently. |
October 1, 2007 - 1:58pm | Everyone wants their project at the top of all lists - everyone will be proud of the projects they're working on. That's my point. Most people will want their project there, making it just a procession of all the projects... or at least a fair number of 'em. That's my concern, ya know? If it's a request for non-member aid, I just thought the general forums are where that should go. Like if I need some submissions for the Star Frontiersman and the members aren't offering anything up, I'd just go post a forum topic requesting some submissions. And it only gets "marked as read" if someone reads it. Or if someone uses those "mark all read" buttons... in which case they don't care about my request or my project enough to read my topic. Bombarding them with project-specific info might just annoy people. Offering a method by which folks can force people to see an add from them is sorta annoying too. *shrug* like I said if others agree with the request then I'll work on it. There have been other requests I've provided solutions for that I didn't personally agree with, so I'm fine with doing the work if there is some kind of consensus. So far only w00t chimed in and his request differed from Corjays fairly significantly. Anyone else wanna help out? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 1, 2007 - 1:59pm | w00t - lemme see if I understand your description: You say to just have a spot on the front page that displays like a random project in a minimalist fashion (logo and title only)? And have this roll with page refreshes or even on its own through flash or java. yes, but I see's Corjay's point to allow special advertisments, I just don't know "what's fair". perhaps having a writeup in SFMAN would draw the attention desired? and the second part of your post... are you saying that /Projects would be more effective of a list if instead of giving all the details I currently display, to instead just provide a grid view of logo/titles? hrm....now that you say that "yes". too much info, I really don't care who the members are, let's "break this down."  don't care == just show it while I'm viewing the project, but not the teaser. Manager: ok, don't care Members: don't care Membership: don't care Documents: don't care Downloads: don't care Description: okOr maybe Projects page should have a diff layout? |
October 1, 2007 - 2:14pm | I guess it's just one of those things where you have to already be familiar with the mob/group/public mindset. Also, I don't see how it would annoy anyone. It's a graphic. Ads are only annoying when they intrude on your private and personal accounts, time, and home life, such as emails, IM's, and phone calls. With the ads all being relative to the game, no one would be able to find fault. As for the mass of projects all wanting to be in rotation, that's fine. At least they have the choice of being in the rotation or not. |
October 1, 2007 - 2:26pm | My personal opinion is that there won't be that many interested in having their project on the front page, and so the rotation will only involve projects that involve things like rulebooks, magazines, and supplements. People aren't likely to try to advertise little homebrew projects that are just a simple rules errata or personal house rules project which will likely be what most of the projects are, considering the lack of available time, energy, or enthusiasm of most people. |
 October 1, 2007 - 3:16pm | It would annoy me. You're ignoring valid arguments against it, trying to provide counterarguments based purely on your opinion, and claiming superior knowledge of psychology based on a faulty analogy with market advertising. It's making my head hurt, you're distracting Bill from actual important work on the site and other projects and frankly the whole argument is becoming ridiculous. The answer to the problem isn't a rotating ad, it's a Project Directory that can be consulted and possibly keyword-searched to allow people to find what they're looking for. The forums are fine if a project needs to put out a call for something. There's no need to clutter up the front page with an annoying image that many of us would wind up adblocking the way I adblocked Shadow Shack's animated .gif avatar and that many would want access to for their projects despite your opinion that they wouldn't. Can we refocus on important things now, please? If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. -- Carl Sagan |
October 1, 2007 - 11:08pm | It's called "group psychology", and yes I'm familiar with it and advertising. (EDIT: In advertising, it's called "group dynamics". It's also a necessary study in rhetoric and debate.) I believe in complete discussions. And for the record this discussion is less than half a day old. (EDIT: Just under 10 hours old at the time I wrote this.) That sounds pretty new to me. According to your post, it sounds like people have options. This thread is an idea. Whether Bill wants to do anything about it is up to him. I'm going to discuss it all I like. Maybe until I turn blue or no one responds. It's called free speech. You don't have to read it if you don't want to. Neither does anyone else. By the way, when a person directly addresses an argument and makes their own judgment that it is not effective based on a lack of information, then this is not "ignoring", it is a judgment, or at the very least a challenge to provide more information to bolster the argument. If neither side has sufficient proof either way, as here, then both parties have a right to make their own judgment based on their own experience. Human nature demonstrates that only a certain number of people are going to completely disregard something like 1 little ad. Since I have no books in my library to support it and wouldn't know what search to make to find it online, I have to just write off that point on both sides. By the way, your so-called solution already exists. It's called the Projects page. I am talking about something more specific and doesn't count on the luck of someone nosing through project pages. Don't tread on me or my right to speak when, where or about what I want to. |
October 1, 2007 - 4:22pm | Maybe it would be best to table this for now and as other people create accounts and projects it can be brought up to a larger community. Your correct, Bill can alot his time as he see's fit, nobody is forcing him to work on this site or this paticulare issue.  /me removes Bill from this site onto SFMAN Issue 7 ....  |
 October 1, 2007 - 6:20pm | I think general forums are the way to go with this. If enough intrest and input is generated, then consider or apply for an actual project spot. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
October 1, 2007 - 6:42pm | Can you define that a little more? It sounds like it may be a good way to carry it out if I'm understanding you. |
October 1, 2007 - 10:59pm | Maybe it would be best to table this for now and as other people create accounts and projects it can be brought up to a larger community. Your correct, Bill can alot his time as he see's fit, nobody is forcing him to work on this site or this paticulare issue. /me removes Bill from this site onto SFMAN Issue 7 .... 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 1, 2007 - 11:04pm | Can I be two people for a while? I'm not so sure that's a good idea. I mean, you saw that episode of classic Star Trek where everything got split into two and we had Good Kirk and Bad Kirk, right? We'd wind up with Good Bill and Bad Bill and man oh man what a mess that might turn into! 
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. -- Carl Sagan |
October 1, 2007 - 11:22pm | Can I be two people for a while? I'm not so sure that's a good idea. I mean, you saw that episode of classic Star Trek where everything got split into two and we had Good Kirk and Bad Kirk, right? We'd wind up with Good Bill and Bad Bill and man oh man what a mess that might turn into!
3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 2, 2007 - 12:08am | my wife looked over my shoulder while I read your post and said "Bad Bill might be fun"... ;) Well now that would just figure, wouldn't it.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. -- Carl Sagan |
October 2, 2007 - 10:46am | I think general forums are the way to go with this. If enough intrest and input is generated, then consider or apply for an actual project spot. Can you define that a little more? It sounds like it may be a good way to carry it out if I'm understanding you. I lost my train of thought right after I typed this. Still cant get back on track with it. I was just thinking of how sometimes a a few small thoughts in a forum or other discussions can really blossom into something huge. For instance, if I were to start a forum asking for ideas to help me round out a planet I plan on using as a focal point for a campaign, people start bouncing ideas back and forth, Pretty soon I have a huge amount of information; eventually I have my a couple of cities, some countries, politcs, even enough to fill in other blank areas on my map, etc. I then decide to compile this, submit it to (fill in the blank) and ask if there is enough to get an actual project space instead of the general forum. I hope that makes some sense. Im having a hell of a day here at work. i will edit this later and see if I can clarifiy. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
October 2, 2007 - 10:57am | and ask if there is enough to get an actual project space instead of the general forum. not sure if you aware that you can create a Project at any time, for public or private use. some of use have created a shell of a project while we work on it (Random Planet-System Generator) for example. not sure if you were thinking you need perms or something to create your own workspace.
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October 2, 2007 - 11:18am | not sure if you were thinking you need perms or something to create your own workspace. yeap. that is exactly what I was thinking. Dont know why. I just assumed you had to get permission to start a project. Time flies when your having rum. Im a government employee, I dont goof-off. I constructively abuse my time. |
October 2, 2007 - 12:04pm | Hm... that's maybe why we need to work out the details for the site's how-to. I started a thread on it here and would like to hear some of your thoughts. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
) view of projects. maybe the projects avatar and the title (usually the title says it all).