 August 27, 2019 - 10:11am | Bap bins were introduced in Zebulon's Guide, but with very little information on how they can be effectively used. I've read many complaints about this, that it's introduced the Star Trek element into the game, but is that really a bad thing? Beyond Star Trek, teleportation devices have been around in science fiction for a long time. According to Wikipedia... if you trust that sometimes untrustworthy source... "An early example of scientific teleportation (as opposed to magical or spiritual teleportation) is found in the 1897 novel To Venus in Five Seconds by Fred T. Jane. Jane's protagonist is transported from a strange-machinery-containing gazebo on Earth to planet Venus – hence the title." As a sidenote, Fred T. Jane (1865-1916) was the founding editor of books on warships, such as Jane's Fighting Ships. And beyond Star Trek, Doctor Who has used teleportation devices, as had Space 1999, and more recently the various Stargate series. So, yes, bap bins fit into established sci fi tropes that the game is based on. The few references to bap bins in Zebs inclues the preface where a Yazarian is walking through the Minzii marketplace. "...All right you little pirate," the Yazarian snaped, temper flaring and teeth bared. "I have a few precious minutes before I 'bap' to another part of your soggy planet..." And the only other references to bap bins in the whole rulebook is in the skills section uner "Matter Transferal Devices" where Techex characters need to have a skill level of 9 before they can operate them. Since Zeb skills only go up to level 8, I guess no one can use them. Joe Cabadas |
August 27, 2019 - 10:37am | Zebs: "Bap bins are matter transferal devices that are relatively new creations. This sound they make when 'beaming' cargo or creaturs is similar to 'bap,' hence the name. They act instantaneously, but the character knows when he has been bapped. The transferal requires a bin to be at both the departure and arrival point to work. The current maximum range between bins is 5000 km. "The cost of bapping is extremely hing, about 10,000 Cr for a one-way trip for a single character..." 10,000 Credits? Ouch! The skill check also has a lot of problems with it beyond needing a level 9 especially when a roll of 98-00 automatically means that the "character being transferred was molecularly scrambled and lost forever." Sounds like a high priced version of Russian roulette. Joe Cabadas |
August 27, 2019 - 10:37am | I had previously tried to tackle bap bins in an old forum topic called "Feedback requested on matter transferal devices" at: www.starfrontiers.us/node/9382 Please see that topic first. That was when I was trying to come up with a revised skill idea for a Star Frontiers 2000 converstion, but what about making this device more useable for the classic Alpha Dawn rules? Well, that has already been done, one could argue. Star Frontiersmanissue 16 featured a story by Scott Mulder called “Teleportation Tech” thatoffered alternative rules for handling matter transferal devices. It is a very extensive look at an alternative way to handle this technology, but it isn't a "bap bin." I want to explore this topic a bit more... perhaps purloining ideas from Mulder's story... it's research, not plagarism, really... at least that will be my defense especially since I'll give him credit... As it stands, we don't know anything about the cost and weight of bap bins, the necessary computer programs, etc... hence an idea of at least looking at Mulder's story for inspiration, it was very, very extensive and well thought out... I also wanted to salvage some work I was doing for my landmine story, specifically on using the bap mine/grenade technology that was posted elsewhere on this site. Source: "Bap Bin Mine/Grenade?" from the "Ultimate Equipment Guide" by Anonymous, http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/2647 My version below: Bap Mines and Grenades. Created exclusively forStar Law – though allegedly also used by the UPF’s mysterious Sector Sixintelligence agency – bap mines and grenades have several specialized andexpensive components that must all be present for it to function properly. Bap bins are matter transferal devices thatbecame available to the military by the time of the Second Sathar War. Later,they became commercially available. These devices make a “bap” sound whentransmitting cargo or creatures. While these large devices have a 5,000kilometer range, the bap mines and grenades have a much shorter range. The bap mine is a fold-out circular platformthat is 2-meters in diameter. In fact, it is a one-way bap bin transmitter witha 5 kilometer range. It requires a separate power source – at least a 100 SEUbattery backpack – and is calibrated to transmit to a specific receiver. Thereceiver is typically mounted in a police transport. Star Law rangers will set up one or more bapmines in an area where they expect to funnel suspects into. The area could be ahallway, an alleyway, a forest glade, etc. It takes 5 minutes to set up andcalibrate the bap mine and the receiver. The bap mine can be concealed underleaves, buried under a few centimeters of sand or dirt, hidden in a shallowpuddle, etc. When the trap is sprung, the bap mine has an80 percent chance to hit and uses 100 SEUs. It instantly transports the trappedcharacter to the reception point where Star Law rangers would be waiting totake a suspect in custody. If the bap mine has an automatic miss of “00,” itburns out and becomes unusable thereafter. Otherwise, the trap is reusable butrequires a minimum of 100 SEUs to work. The bap grenade was originally made forSector Six (see Star Frontiersman magazine, issue 6 for more information aboutthis organization). Weighing one kilogram, it is a specialized bap transmitterthat can be tossed at an opponent. If the hit is successful, the grenade willtransport the opponent up to 500 meters to the bap bin receiver. The grenade does not require a set-up time,but can only be used one time. It is powered by an internal 20 SEU one-usepower cell. A character could make a Reaction Speed checkwith a 40 percent penalty to avoid the transport process for either the bapmine or bap grenade. Mobile Bap BinTransmitter/Receiver. Thisdevice is not a mine, but is part of the system needed for the bap mine and bapgrenade to work properly. ... I halted work on my version of the bap mine and grenade when I soon realized that Zebs did not include any prices or other stats on standard bap equipment. Nor did Dragon magazine apparently cover this topic. So, I'll start posting a few ideas over time and would welcome comments. Joe Cabadas |
 August 27, 2019 - 11:12am | I've read many complaints about this, that it's introduced the Star Trek element into the game, but is that really a bad thing? Despite the fact that Zeb's Guide manages to find new and improved ways of lowering the bar every time I open that book, I never had that Trek complaint with it. After all Dramune's Run had already introduced the Star Wars element into the game... |
August 27, 2019 - 11:34am | I've read many complaints about this, that it's introduced the Star Trek element into the game, but is that really a bad thing? Despite the fact that Zeb's Guide manages to find new and improved ways of lowering the bar every time I open that book, I never had that Trek complaint with it. After all Dramune's Run had already introduced the Star Wars element into the game... The thing I most hated about Zebs was that it destroyed the previous game mechanics and the timeline errors... and most of the drawings... and using microcassette tapes to learn new skills. If you have hypno training centers (as introduced in Alpha Dawn), why would you go to late 20th century tech to learn skills. I don't think I ever learned anything just listening to a microcassette tape. But there are things from Zebs that can be salvaged. Joe Cabadas |
August 27, 2019 - 11:48am | So, how much power does a bap bin use? 1 SEU equals 5 Credits according to the rules... a cost that should keep most people in the dark unless the pay rates are substantially higher than given in Alpha Dawn... It costs 10,000 Cr for a one-way trip, maximum of 5,000 kilometers. So it takes at most 2,000 SEUs for such a trip. I say at most because there should be some profit built in for whatever entity is doing the teleporting. The cost in Zebs might be the break even point. So, does it is 2 SEUs to teleport something 5 km? That doesn't sound right. There is probably some minimal power usage to dematerialize a subject and then maybe a graduated power usage scale. In other words, the farther you go, the more power it takes and conversely, the shorter the teleportation distance, the less power is used. 20 SEUs used in a laser rifle will do 20d10 damage or 20-200 points. I would think 200 points of damage would pretty much fry normal biological characters. Let's say that 20 SEUs is the minimum power requirement to dematerialize a subject. This would make the idea of a bap grenade possible. it would have a very short teleportation range, hence 500 meters to a receiver. What if there isn't a receiver within range? I think the following description would work from the Ultimate Equipment Guide, http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/2646: "... a Bad Thing (TM) will happen. w00t is working on the details, just know this. You don't want to be around to find out. Anyone remember Dradox 4? Don't think so." Well, I can't wait around for w00t to work out the details for me... Joe Cabadas |
August 27, 2019 - 11:54am | To teleport creatures larger than a player character -- Volturnian rollers, or warbots even -- you would need more than 20 SEU for a successful dematerialization to occur. For a 500 STA creature, maybe you need at least 50 SEU... 1 SEU per 10 STA points... What if less power is used than required for a teleportation? I think it would cause electrical damage either at the rate of 1d10 per SEU or 1d5 per SEU to the subject. Maybe an active gauss screen would interfere with teleportation or even someone wearing mazer mesh. Let's say the anti-shock implant does not cause a problem with teleportation but will help against any beforementioned electrical damage. Joe Cabadas |
August 27, 2019 - 1:29pm | Instead of worrying about the hardware, I'll tackle the Matter Transferal Device skill using some "inspiration" from Scott Mulder... wasn't he on the X-Files? Anyway... Matter Transferal Devices Type: Technician/Techex A technician with this skill has a chance to operate bap bins, which are matter transferal devices. Bap bins are relatively new creations. By the time of the Second Sathar War they were first deployed by military forces and became commercially available thereafter. These devices make a “bap” sound when transmitting cargo or creatures, hence the name. Bap bins act instantaneously, but the character knows he has been materially transferred. The transferal process requires a bin to be at both the departure and arrival point. The current maximum range between bins is 5,000 km (military versions may be double that range) but could be extended through a teleportation relay network. The first generation of bap bins used 2,000 SEUs to transmit a person or person-sized object, which roughly equated to10,000 Credits for a one-way trip. Power usage and costs began to decline while safety improved as the devices became more and more common. Techexes who operate these devices for a living must have Matter Transferal Devices skill level 3 before they are legally permitted to operate them alone. Skill checks are normally not needed except when there are unusual situations. Most of the time, when the technician fails his skill check, it means that the transferal did not work at all, but the character is safe. Because of all the redundant systems that are built into bap bins, only a roll of “00” is considered a critical failure where the referee needs to consult the Matter Transferal Device Mishap Chart. Technically, a game master should only use a critical failure as a “plot device” for an adventure unless one is looking to cause mayhem with your players. Note: These rules are embellishments on the original Zebulon rules that said when an automatic failure occurred on a roll of 97-00, adding that in such a case the character or object being teleported would be irretrievably lost. This is a horrendous statistic. For instance, how many people would fly in aircraft if one out every 33 trips ended in a fatal crash? Perhaps when these devices were in the experimental stage, a 3 percent failure rate might have seemed acceptable but not if the technology was ever going to become widespread. Joe Cabadas |
August 27, 2019 - 1:30pm | So far, I've mostly used the description I created for my SF 2000 version, but any decent Technician skill needs sub-skills, hence it shall now be "Mulderized". Joe Cabadas |
August 27, 2019 - 1:43pm | An Operators skill set falls under the Technological PSA and includes several sub skills that are essential to the operation of any teleportation system. System Operation Success Rate: ? + Skill Level x 10% This essential skill allows an Operator to properly use any standard teleportation system. Before an operator can attempt to teleport a passenger or cargo they must learn this skill. Target Acquisition Success Rate: ? + Skill Level x10% This skill improves an Operators ability to locate and target a receiving terminal that is beyond line of sight or moving. Troubleshoot Success Rate: 100% This skill allows an expert Operator to identify and troubleshoot minor problems with any standard teleport system. Asses Security Success Rate: 60%+ Skill Level x 10% This skill allows an Operator to recognize security and safety issues on any teleportation system. This skill also allows the operator the ability to successfully navigate the security system of any standard teleportation system. Repair Equipment Success Rate: 30%+ Skill Level x 10% This skill allows an Operator the ability to recognize and repair minor malfunctions in any standard teleportation system. Signal Tracking Success Rate: 40%+ Skill Level x 10% This skill allow san Operator the ability to detect, identify, locate, and track any teleportation signal within operating range. This skill also allows the operator to discern differences in transmission signals to determine what kind of item is being teleported. Signal Recall Success Rate: 20%+ Skill Level x 10% This skill allowsan Operator the ability to recall and capture a lost or disrupted signal in a closed circuit network. An expert Operator only has a one hour window in which to conduct a signal recall once a signal becomes lost inside the network. Typically, a signal recall attempt takes 5d10 minutes. If the operator fails the skill check they can make a second attempt if time allows. If the operator fails the second attempt the signal will become so weak and corrupted that it will not be able to be re-integrated. Bypass Security Success Rate: 30%+ Skill Level x 10% This skill allows an Operator the ability to Bypass security systems used on any standard teleportation system. Network Interfacing Success Rate: 50%+ Skill Level x 10% This skill improves the Operators ability to locate and operate a Teleportation Relay Network. Disable Fail Safe Protocol Success Rate: 20%+ Skill Level x 10% This skill allows an Operator to disable the Fail-Safe Protocols on any standard teleportation system to permit the teleportation of cybernetic devices and potentially dangerous cargo. This skill also allows the operator to bypass the safety protocols and allow a teleportation system to conduct risk teleportations. TDM Coordinator Success Rate 40% +Skill Level x 10% This specialty skill improves a Teleport Operator’s ability to coordinate a ship’s crew to successfully complete a teleport docking maneuver. Teleport experts who learn this skill will be able to complete a TDM upon a successful skill check roll without the any additional starship crew skill checks. Modify Equipment Success Rate 30% +Skill Level x 10% This skill allows an expert teleport operator the ability to modify teleportation equipment for specific tasks it was not originally intended for such as signal jamming and hi-jacking. Joe Cabadas |
August 27, 2019 - 1:48pm | Above is a cut and paste operation from Mulder's story. I've highlighted a few areas. System Operation Success Rate: ? + Skill Level x 10% Target Acquisition Success Rate: ? + Skill Level x10% TDM Coordinator ... Teleport experts who learn this skill ... First two observations, there is no base success rate number provided for the System Operation and Target Acquisition skills... I think these should be sub-skills and most of the "skills" given by Mulder should be sub-skills except maybe for the TDM Coordinator one. That could be a separate skill or perhaps one that a character can't get until they reach level 4? I would tweak several of Mulder's descriptions, but they are very well detailed and thought out! . Joe Cabadas |
August 28, 2019 - 11:03am | Here are the tweaks: Revisions in red. Subskill: System Operation Success Rate: Automatic (LOG) or ½ LOG + 10% per level This basic skill allows an operator to properly use any standard matter transferal device (MTD) to teleport passengers or cargo. Typically no skill check is needed unless something unusual is going on – such as making a risky teleportation – or the character is trying to operate an alien MTD. Subskill: Target Acquisition Success Rate: ¼ LOG + 10% per level This skill represents an operator’s ability to locate and target a receiving terminal that is beyond line of sight or is moving, such as an orbiting starship or mobile bap bin. Here I've combined the System Operation and Target Acquisition subskills into one. Subskill: System Operation Success Rate: Automatic (LOG) or ½ LOG + 10% per level This basic skill allows an operator to properly use any standard matter transferal device (MTD) to teleport passengers or cargo. It includes the operator’s ability to locate and target a receiving terminal that is beyond line of sight or is moving, such as an orbiting starship or mobile bap bin. Typically no skill check is needed unless something unusual is going on – such as making a risky teleportation – or the character is trying to operate an alien MTD.
Subskill: Troubleshoot Success Rate: Automatic (LOG) or ½ LOG + 10% per level This skill allows the operator to identify and repair minor problems with any standard bap bin system. Normally no skill check is needed, though the time needed to identify and rectify any minor breakdowns may take 2d10 minutes. Subskill: Asses Security Success Rate: 60% + 10% per level With the ability to recognize security and safety issues on any teleportation system, the operator can successfully navigate the devices’ security system. Subskill: Repair Equipment Success Rate: 30% + 10% per level This skill allows an Operator the ability to recognize and repair minor malfunctions in any standard teleportation system. Use the Standard Repair Rule. Subskill: Signal Tracking Success Rate: 40% + 10% per level This skill allows an operator th eability to detect, identify, locate, and track any teleportation signal withino perating range. This skill also allows the operator to discern differences in transmission signals to determine what kind of item is being teleported. Subskill: Signal Recall Success Rate: 20% + 10% per level With the ability to recall and captur ea lost or disrupted signal, the operator has a chance to save any character or cargo that would normally be lost with an automatic failure. The operator only has a one hour window in which to conduct a signal recall once a signal becomes lost. Typically, a signal recall attempt takes 5d10 minutes. If the operator fails the skill check they can make a second attempt if time allows. If the operator fails the second attempt the signal will become so weak and corrupted that it will not be able to be re-integrated. Subskill: Bypass Security Success Rate: 30% + 10% per level This skill permits an operatorthe ability to bypass security systems used on any standard teleportation system. Subskill: Network Interfacing Success Rate: 50% + 10% per level This skill improves the Operators ability to locate and operate a Teleportation Relay Network. Subskill: Disable Fail Safe Protocol Success Rate: 20% + 10% per level This skill allows an Operator to disable the Fail-Safe Protocols on any standard teleportation system to permit the teleportation of potentially dangerous cargo. This skill also allows the operatorto bypass the safety protocols and allow a teleportation system to conduct risk teleportations. Matter Transfer Coordinator Pr: Matter Transferal Devices level 4 This specialty skill can only b epurchased once the Techex reaches a level 4 in Matter Transferal Devices. Subskill: Teleport Docking Maneuver Success Rate 40% + 10% per level It improves the operator’s ability to coordinate a starship’s crew to successfully complete a teleport docking maneuver (TDM) – which is transmitting characters or cargo between two moving ships. The matter transfer coordinator can complete a TDM upon a successful skill check roll without the any additional starship crew skill checks. Subskill: Modify Equipment Success Rate 30% + 10% per level The matter transfer coordinator is skilled enough to modify teleportation equipment for specific tasks it was not originally intended for such as signal jamming and hi-jacking a signal, which means diverting a “beaming” character or cargo to another bap bin receiver. Joe Cabadas |
 August 28, 2019 - 12:09am | Despite actually getting a lot of use out of Zeb's, bap bins didn't make sense to us as a means of cargo transport as it seemed more expensive to send stuff through it over a (relatively short) distance. Regular cargo transport seemed cheaper. That said, bap bins could be used as a secure means of transferring very valuable cargo, and that could include individuals. This would perhaps entail a high security facility at either end of the bap route. At the same time, it's not really all that clear why and when such transfers would be needed on a regular enough basis to make this a financially feasible method of transport. |
August 28, 2019 - 3:23am | Despite actually getting a lot of use out of Zeb's, bap bins didn't make sense to us as a means of cargo transport as it seemed more expensive to send stuff through it over a (relatively short) distance. Regular cargo transport seemed cheaper. That said, bap bins could be used as a secure means of transferring very valuable cargo, and that could include individuals. This would perhaps entail a high security facility at either end of the bap route. At the same time, it's not really all that clear why and when such transfers would be needed on a regular enough basis to make this a financially feasible method of transport. Agreed! Joe Cabadas |
August 28, 2019 - 4:51am | I think that they may have a use an an interface between a planet and a spacestation. Say, for example, you have a consignment of expensive cargo on the planet. This could be bapped up to the station and then loaded onto a waiting freighter. This is one of the reasons why I think the whole system would only really be used for high value/high security transport. It's expensive, but the risk factor outweighs the costs. This may also mean that costs stay high and the system is not in general widespread use. |
August 28, 2019 - 11:33am | I think that they may have a use an an interface between a planet and a spacestation. Say, for example, you have a consignment of expensive cargo on the planet. This could be bapped up to the station and then loaded onto a waiting freighter. This is one of the reasons why I think the whole system would only really be used for high value/high security transport. It's expensive, but the risk factor outweighs the costs. This may also mean that costs stay high and the system is not in general widespread use. Agreed. The 10,000 Credit cost seems way too high... unless that is for doing a full 5,000 km transmission. I don't like the 1 SEU = 5 Credit formula, especially since practically everything in the game uses SEUs. Otherwise, characters ought to stick to projectile weapons and ride around on lopers or be employed by a mega corp with deep pockets. Even if 1 SEU = 1 Credit, that would be a lot, but more reasonable. The cost really makes the preface of Zebs seem ridiculous where the Yazarian character is impatient and wants to "bap" to another part of the planet. That is pretty frivoulous, especially if he can die 3 percent of the time. On the other hand, I don't think this thing should be ubiquitous and transporters in Star Trek, especially the Next Generation version. In Stargate they couldn't always use the "ring" transporter or the Asgard beaming device (if you are familiar with that). Even 1,000 Credits per "beaming" would be high, but maybe that would be a more reasonable cost. Joe Cabadas |
August 28, 2019 - 11:36am | Now for some more cut and paste from Scott Mulder's story... I did say he did a very good job with it... but it's more complicated than I think the bap bin concept is... Matter Transfer Devices Regardless of manufacturer almost all teleportation systems require the same basic components to operate. These components include a skilled teleport operator, teleport control computer, industrial grade molecular scanner, medical grade bio-scanner, matter conversion transmitter (MCT), data interpreter unit, signal transmitter array, signal receiver array, sending and receiving terminal pods, containment shielding, and power generators. Teleport systems are designed in a variety of models for commercial, industrial, and military applications. While each of these different models may provide a variety of different features or program options they all use the same basic components.This standardization of components allows teleport operators and technicians to work on a variety of systems without the need of additional training. Teleport systems which are part of a larger network may require additional components and infrastructure specific to those networks. Component Cost Control Computer 30,000 Credits Teleport Program 20,000 Credits Diagnostic Program 6,000 Credits Security Program 8,000 Credits M.C.T. Unit 575,000 Credits Molecular Scanner 200,000 Credits Medical Bio-Scanner 150,000 Credits Containment Shield 60,000 Credits Transmitter Array 250,000 Credits Receiver Array 250,000 Credits Data Interpreter Unit 125,000 Credits Terminal Pod 55,000 Credits Large Terminal Pod 85,000 Credits Power Generator 200,000 Credits CCN Buffer Unit 65,000 Credits TRN Relay Unit 150,000 Credits TRN Capacitor 25,000 Credits Encryption Program 30,000 Credits HALO System* 375,000 Credits *HALO Systems are restricted military items Joe Cabadas |
August 28, 2019 - 11:38am | One reason to shy away from Mulder's concept is that HALO is, of course, a trademarked computer game. The cost of some of the components seems rather high compared to other SF devices, but I'll have to look into that some more. Joe Cabadas |
August 28, 2019 - 1:01pm | Agreed. The 10,000 Credit cost seems way too high... unless that is for doing a full 5,000 km transmission. I don't like the 1 SEU = 5 Credit formula, especially since practically everything in the game uses SEUs. Otherwise, characters ought to stick to projectile weapons and ride around on lopers or be employed by a mega corp with deep pockets. Even if 1 SEU = 1 Credit, that would be a lot, but more reasonable. The cost really makes the preface of Zebs seem ridiculous where the Yazarian character is impatient and wants to "bap" to another part of the planet. That is pretty frivoulous, especially if he can die 3 percent of the time. On the other hand, I don't think this thing should be ubiquitous and transporters in Star Trek, especially the Next Generation version. In Stargate they couldn't always use the "ring" transporter or the Asgard beaming device (if you are familiar with that). Even 1,000 Credits per "beaming" would be high, but maybe that would be a more reasonable cost. If it's used only for precious/VIP/dangerous cargoes, then the cost makes sense to a certain extent. Distance probably isn't the issue - the equipment is rare and only exists in certain places, so merely hopping to somewhere 5km away isn't an option - unless it's somewhere up to a point above a planet or perhaps down somewhere under it's surface. To use the machine, you have to go to a specific high security facility - once you have all of the necessary paperwork, permissions, invoices, etc this then sends to you or your stuff to another specific high security facility. All of this costs money. It seems to me that this works best as a method of sending something or someone to a spacestation, where it/they can then be taken elsewhere by ship. Or maybe it takes them/it to some underground/underwater facility. Maybe it's all a bit hush-hush - some sort of rich people/megacorp/Star Law thing. Regular people/companies/organisations don't use them - or aren't given access to them unless there are extenuating circumstances. |
 August 29, 2019 - 3:36am | Sounds like a high priced version of Russian roulette. agreed but this can happen when things are bolted onto an existing system and not play tested. RE: bap mines- must be preset up by star law and they plan to chase criminals into a specific area? very very fiddly far easier to just shoot a suspect with tangler gyrojet ammo IMO However this one way single use bap technology would be very appealing to people who want to"get away" ie criminals would use this for a quick get away. RE: 2000 SEUs for a bap trip - lets say that its really 1000 SEUs and that the other 1000 SEUs of the cost is over head for operators and the cost of equipment and some profit for the owner. RE: w00t - he, by personal choice, is MIA from the Frontier and doesn' t seem to be coming back I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 29, 2019 - 3:40am | To teleport creatures larger than a player character -- Volturnian rollers, or warbots even -- you would need more than 20 SEU for a successful dematerialization to occur. For a 500 STA creature, maybe you need at least 50 SEU... 1 SEU per 10 STA points... What if less power is used than required for a teleportation? I think it would cause electrical damage either at the rate of 1d10 per SEU or 1d5 per SEU to the subject. Maybe an active gauss screen would interfere with teleportation or even someone wearing mazer mesh. Let's say the anti-shock implant does not cause a problem with teleportation but will help against any beforementioned electrical damage. If we are talking about 2000 SEU per bap why are we fooling around with figuring another 20- 50 SEU? 20 SEU is not even 1% of 2000 so just say 2000 SEU and be done with it otherwise you are wasting time on minutia. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 29, 2019 - 3:44am | Despite actually getting a lot of use out of Zeb's, bap bins didn't make sense to us as a means of cargo transport as it seemed more expensive to send stuff through it over a (relatively short) distance. Regular cargo transport seemed cheaper. That said, bap bins could be used as a secure means of transferring very valuable cargo, and that could include individuals. This would perhaps entail a high security facility at either end of the bap route. At the same time, it's not really all that clear why and when such transfers would be needed on a regular enough basis to make this a financially feasible method of transport. whats the cost to rent a truck and pay a driver to transport a cargo 5000 km? Yeah bap bins are not very economical. In fact Kim Eastland was interviewed by speaker phone at one of the Sci-Cons and admitted that he created the bap bins because the players in his home game were overly worried about how they would get from a ship in orbit to the planet surface. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 29, 2019 - 3:44am | Despite actually getting a lot of use out of Zeb's, bap bins didn't make sense to us as a means of cargo transport as it seemed more expensive to send stuff through it over a (relatively short) distance. Regular cargo transport seemed cheaper. That said, bap bins could be used as a secure means of transferring very valuable cargo, and that could include individuals. This would perhaps entail a high security facility at either end of the bap route. At the same time, it's not really all that clear why and when such transfers would be needed on a regular enough basis to make this a financially feasible method of transport. whats the cost to rent a truck and pay a driver to transport a cargo 5000 km? Yeah bap bins are not very economical. In fact Kim Eastland was interviewed by speaker phone at one of the Sci-Cons and admitted that he created the bap bins because the players in his home game were overly worried about how they would get from a ship in orbit to the planet surface. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 29, 2019 - 3:47am | One reason to shy away from Mulder's concept is that HALO is, of course, a trademarked computer game. The cost of some of the components seems rather high compared to other SF devices, but I'll have to look into that some more. HALO is an acronym that predates the computer game. It comes from military operations by special operators its it stands for High Altitude Low Opening technique of parachuting. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 29, 2019 - 4:50am | whats the cost to rent a truck and pay a driver to transport a cargo 5000 km? Yeah bap bins are not very economical. In fact Kim Eastland was interviewed by speaker phone at one of the Sci-Cons and admitted that he created the bap bins because the players in his home game were overly worried about how they would get from a ship in orbit to the planet surface. Yeah, the cost compared to regular transport is what we didn't see as useful back in the day. But, like I said, it could have some particular uses, which in itself is also expensive. |
August 29, 2019 - 6:40am | Lets number crunch the alternative: Ground truck rental is 75 Cr plus 100 Cr/day to transport 10,000 kg or 30 cubic meters Cruis speed is 60 kph 5000 km / 60= is 83.33 hours average work day is 10 hours on a GST day. Since AD rules it was the technician that drove vehicles we'll use the technician wages to calculate cost of a driver in this case 50 Cr/ day for a level 1 driver. AD declares that 1/2 a character's income is expenses of living so you will have to pay those expenses to send a driver days away from home- 25 CR minimum/day for food and lodging Real world commercial drivers are expected to pre trip their vehicles which can take 10- 30 minutes depending on the driver and his commitement to trouble shooting. so the driver wont actually drive for 10 hours but will waste a minimum of 1 hour on recharge and pre-trip and another hour on stopping for lunch so his drive time will be 8 hours on a GST day. Unless he's going to push it. maybe there is a bonus for getting there at a certain time. maybe a colony doesn't regulate commercial trucking like its regulated now and a driver can drive for 15 hours straight on stimdose. So a single driver driving 8hrs/day would make the trip in 10.4 days call it 11 for a cost of 2000 Cr for the trip in one direction. Single driver driving 10 hours/day would make the trip in 8.33 days call it 9 for a cost of 1650 cr Two drivers driving round the clock would do the trip in 4.16 call it 5 days for 1325 Cr. EDIt: should probably rework the numbers for 2 drivers but with only 19 hours driving so they can recharge and etc also what about for the company using a level 3-4 service bot as a driver? there is probably a bonus attached for the drivers for 1/10 a credit/km? I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
August 29, 2019 - 7:10am | A truck can't go 5km upwards. A shuttle can, so can an aircraft or an air transport of some kind. But they're probably more expensive than a truck ;) So, yes, bap bins are way much more expensive - so there must be occasions
where their use and their costs are still a 'necessary evil'. |
August 29, 2019 - 11:42am | To teleport creatures larger than a player character -- Volturnian rollers, or warbots even -- you would need more than 20 SEU for a successful dematerialization to occur. For a 500 STA creature, maybe you need at least 50 SEU... 1 SEU per 10 STA points... What if less power is used than required for a teleportation? I think it would cause electrical damage either at the rate of 1d10 per SEU or 1d5 per SEU to the subject. Maybe an active gauss screen would interfere with teleportation or even someone wearing mazer mesh. Let's say the anti-shock implant does not cause a problem with teleportation but will help against any beforementioned electrical damage. If we are talking about 2000 SEU per bap why are we fooling around with figuring another 20- 50 SEU? 20 SEU is not even 1% of 2000 so just say 2000 SEU and be done with it otherwise you are wasting time on minutia. Ah, because I don't think it would be 1,000 SEU per bap. If the bap grenade is possible, there is no way you can fit that much power into a throwable device. Joe Cabadas |
August 29, 2019 - 1:14pm | One reason to shy away from Mulder's concept is that HALO is, of course, a trademarked computer game. The cost of some of the components seems rather high compared to other SF devices, but I'll have to look into that some more. HALO is an acronym that predates the computer game. It comes from military operations by special operators its it stands for High Altitude Low Opening technique of parachuting. Oh. Good to know! Then I shall think about scrapping my idea... Mulder pretty much already did it and very thoroughly too. Joe Cabadas |
August 29, 2019 - 5:37pm | In fact Kim Eastland was interviewed by speaker phone at one of the Sci-Cons and admitted that he created the bap bins because the players in his home game were overly worried about how they would get from a ship in orbit to the planet surface. That reminds me, I don't know if you know this, but the transporter for Star Trek was pretty much created because Gene Roddenberry didn't want to spend a lot of time on having the characters use a shuttlecraft to go from the Enterprise and down to planets and back. So, don't discount bap bins just because some of Eastland's players wanted a shortcut. In fact, isn't there pretty much a sentence or two in the Alpha Dawn game that expects the players to come up with new equipment? Anyway, please keep up with the feedback... I think I might keep trying to create rules for a bap bin... but as noted earlier, Scott Mulder's story was very comprehensive. Joe Cabadas |
