KH Turns vs AD Turns

Abub's picture
Abub
November 10, 2014 - 12:30pm
OK...


So, ran in to this area of issue in my last game which I should have GM'ed around... but ...

I'm thinking I wanna shorten a space round to only 1 minute or 10 AD turns to make it flow better for the style of game I wanna run with things happening on and in ship during a space fight.

Can anybody think of how bad that will break everything?  I suppose it increase the whiplash speeds that ADF and MR represent but since we already have to ignore some physics there I can hand wave that perhaps.

But in other aspects of the game... how much would that break things.

As it is... lets say the ship fight results in an attempt to board a hostile ship that isn't going easily.  The time scale difference for the boarding action means that basically while they are going round to round fighting or cutting hulls or crawling over the target ship the space ships have suffered from a temporal freeze.  Time on the ships for the crew trying to get the engines working again, or getting a laser battery shooting again is like it has stopped while the AD turn people as moving like a red blur by comparision.

Because of the time difference.  ALL CREW on the defending ship need to pick up a gun or a club and go fight because trying to finish fixing that manuervering thruster... it is pointless.  The invaders will be enjoying tea on your ship's bridge long before you ever have a chance to do anything.
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Comments:

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
November 10, 2014 - 12:59pm
Fixing stuff takes time, it's just that plain and simple. Even by elevator it will take a few minutes just to access the deck where the damaged component that needs repairing is located. Which is why a ship that is intended to be boarded needs three things disabled: thrust, maneuvering, and defenses. Leave any of those operational and boarding is impossible. That's a lot of stuff to fix, and it will take a lot of time to address. Half an hour to get your drives operational again is actually quite generous, have you ever fixed you car in such a short time frame?

As such, there's no need to address the time differences between KH boardgame and AD character movement. 
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

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Abub's picture
Abub
November 10, 2014 - 2:08pm
Well, I don't deny that, but it doesn't support the cinematic feel I generally go for in games.
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TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
November 10, 2014 - 7:34pm
One way to do it is just redefine the size of the KH hex and weapon ranges.  You can fix the 1ADF not equal to 1g of acceleration issue simply by changing the hex size from 10,000 km to 3,600 km.  If you then wanted to scale it down to 1 minute turns instead of 10 minute turns, just change the hex scale from 3,600km to 360 km.  And then leave the weapons ranges the same in hexes.  The only thing the really affects in terms of the KH board game is the size of a planet if you put one on the map.  At this new scale Earth would be about 35 hexes in diameter (i.e. stretch across the map).  You just don't use planets on the game board.

Ascent did an article on changing the scale of combat in KH in an early Star Frontiersman issue.  It was more talking about fighters but I believe it would apply in your case.  You can find an online version here:  Shades of Motion
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Abub's picture
Abub
November 11, 2014 - 9:35am
Well... it is hard to not use planets.


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jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 11, 2014 - 12:20pm
So use a plaent, it just becomes a barrier. With a scaled planet and moon you suddenly have opportunity for ships to effectively hide behind something.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Stormcrow's picture
Stormcrow
November 11, 2014 - 1:54pm
Knight Hawks combat is not SWOOSH! POWPOWPOW! It is slow and methodical, maneuvering around and firing on targets that you can't even see. This is true whether you're dealing with fighters or battleships.

Therefore, don't imagine a boarding action happening while enemy ships are swooping around you and lasers are filling the sky. That's just not the pace of Knight Hawks. Once you stop worrying about that, you can get on with your character-scale turns.

When you're a character participating in ship-to-ship combat, you're spending a full 10-minute turn on your ship-to-ship activity. If you go repelling boarders, you're not doing that other job.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
November 11, 2014 - 2:56pm
My point exactly Stormcrow.

Think of it in D&D terms: 10 second combat/encounter rounds versus 10 minute non-combat/dungeon crawling turns. You spend a full turn moving around the dungeon, mapping, and taking in the readily apparent details (KH turn). A goblin rounds the corner, raises his sword, and charges the party...now you're resolving things by rounds (AD turn). Keep in mind the time spans in SF are slightly different...6 second AD turns and 10 minute KH turns, but the concept is still the same.

If you really want to break the KH turn into AD turns, then you resolve everything in AD time. But your ship still only shoots once per KH turn or once per 100 AD turns, and you can make repairs once every three KH turns or once per 300 AD turns. 
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Abub's picture
Abub
November 11, 2014 - 3:29pm
yeah using full AD turns wouldn't work either.  Its why I was considering shortening KH turns to make them equal to 10 AD turns.

In general... I get the feeling everybody thinks the idea is rubbish.  lol


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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
November 11, 2014 - 4:06pm
Long post alert, but this will shed a lot of light on the issue. Sample scenario (in AD time):

You're an engineer aboard the Gullwind. A pair of MalCo assault scouts (moving at a rate of 15 hexes per KH turn on the map) have managed to disable the Gullwind's laser battery, maneuvering system, and finally the drives while the Gullwind was moving ten hexes per KH turn on the map. Garlus Tylappar orders you to get the drives functioning ASAP.

You spend a turn activating the DCR program. Then you leave your engineering station on the bridge, move toward the elevator, and depress the elevator call button (one more turn). Per the module it takes a turn for the elevator to arrive. The engineering deck is three levels below the bridge, so it will take three turns to cover that distance. The elevator doors open and you spend the next turn traversing the distance from elevator to workpod hatch. If you haven't done so already, you now spend the next 2+ turns donning a space suit (for the sake of averages, we'll say your engineer has a 45 DEX score soit takes five turns to do this). It now takes three turns to open the hatch, and another three turns opening the actual workpod hatch. One more turn and you're in the control eat of the workpod, and the next turn you detach and begin moving toward the damaged drive(s).

20 turns have elapsed, or 2 minutes. 

Keep in mind the MalCo scouts will require a full KH turn to match velocity with the drifting Gullwind at ADF:5, and according to the KH boarding action rules it will take the scout pilot (2d10 - pilot level - scout MR) turns to maneuver close enough for a boarding party to access the helpless ship. Said rule also states it will take at least one turn regardless of the resulting roll (zero or less equals one). Let's say the MalCo ship gets a lucky roll resulting in one. You easily spend the next 180 turns/18 minutes working on the damaged drive system without interruption. You're practically two thirds of the way to repairing the drive.

220 turns have elapsed, or 20.2 minutes.

The MalCo scout has pulled alongside the Gullwind and their boarding party commences the spacewalk. In the midst of your repairs, you glance out the viewport and see a half dozen suited MalCo invaders exit the scout's airlock. They drift across and set up outside the main entry hatch, this takes a full turn. You see them prepping a Laser PowerTorch and hail the bridge to warn them about the point of entry. Per KH rules it takes four turns for the LPT to cut the required opening, and another four turns each to cut through the pair of inner hatches...plus the entry rate of one person per turn through each hole. Plenty of time for the rest of the crew to set up and prepare for repelling boarders.

239 turns have elapsed, or 23.9 minutes. In 6.1 minutes you can make your repair roll.

One all six boarders make their way through the final hole, combat ensues and the Gullwind crew manages to cut down all six boarders in the next three turns with the machine gun Garlus kept onhand for such emergencies. The invaders are now gasping for their last breaths as they each have d10 holes in their spacesuits!

248 turns have elapsed, or 24.8 minutes.

You realize now that you are in the shadow of the second scout which has also been fortunate enough to make a good closing time roll. You see it eclipsed by the Gullwind's hull as it positions itself on the opposite side from where you are deployed. Garlus, still calling the shots from the bridge, activates the Gullwind's skin sensors and determines that another force has positioned themselves on the hold's bay doors. Four turns later the hold surveilance camera depicts an image of six more baddies entering the hold, one by one. Garlus calls the elevator to the crew deck and locks it, awaiting the boarding party's next move.

258 turns have elapsed, or 25.8 minutes. 4.2 minutes to go before you make a repair roll. 

Four more turns elapse as the boarders cross the distance and realize the elevator has been locked. They make another cut into the elevator doors and one by one enter the hole to ascend the vacant shaft. Four more turns and they are at the crew deck below the locked elevator, and begin cutting their way through. One by one they filter into the elevator car.

282 turns have elapsed, or 28.2 minutes.

The Gullwind crew, having heard the ruckus within the elevator, take defensive positions. The machine gun mount will do them little good, as it is mounted adjacenet to the elevator and will not provide an effective field of fire. The crew opts for a game of hide and seek, and they opt for filing out the airlock to give the engineer time to wrap up repairs, and the last crew member scoots through just as the boarders finish cutting through the elevator doors. 

286 turns have elapsed, or 28.6 minutes.

The crew makes their way along the outer hull to the gutted bay door. The captain of the second scout no doubt sees this, and their ploy works: as the crew makes it into the hold the boarders take chase, filing through the airlock one by one. They are now all outside of the ship while the crew is in the hold.

304 turns have elapsed, or 30.4 minutes. Since I have been generous with the die rolls, the engineer makes his DCR roll and the drives are back online. The workpod has docked by now, and all crew are safely magna-booted to the deck as Garlus fires up the trio of PanGalactic Eurekas. The Gullwind lurches forward, leaving the drifting boarders outside! Good ol' crafty Garlus has done it again.


Now keep in mind this is a best case scenario for the boarders, the average closing time for boarding would be (2d10=11 - lv-2 pilot - MR:4) 5 turns, more than enough time to get the drives fixed and 2/3 of the way on addressing the next system. As I said, there's nothing to address here. Time is surely on your side.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
November 11, 2014 - 9:20pm
Good example Shadow.

That said, if you really want to shorten the turns and not the scales, go ahead and do so.  You just have to, as you said, hand wave away the crazy accelerations.  If you want to explain it, tt means you have to have some sort of inertial dampening, which, as some people have pointed out, we kind of already do in the form of inertia screens.  That's really the only implication for other things that comes to mind. 

You should think about what the existance of that kind of technology means.  What other ways could it be used and how would that affect your setting.  Do those implications bother you?  If not, or if you just want to ignore it, do so.  It's your game and if you want it to be more cinematic go for it.  As Shadow's example shows, I don't think it's quite as bad as you might be thinking but I don't think that changing the timescale will have too bad an effect if you don't want it to.
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
November 12, 2014 - 10:39am
Seriously, for the time required to match velocity followed by the closing time, even a solitary engineer can typically get two repair rolls accomplished. Multiple engineers can be under way long before the first boarders leave their own ship.

Unless your engineer team is comatose, odds really favor restoring drive power prior to boarding. And even then you can still make a repair roll or two using the sole DCR of the ship itself...
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Abub's picture
Abub
November 12, 2014 - 11:36am
In my game I'm having them roll dcr and engineering rolls every KH round instead of seperating the repairs into a special thirty minute round.  Each success goes toward the three they need to fix anything.  So three success is roughly thirty minutes. 

I had not considered using DCR alongside engineering or even multiple engineers working the same problem. Wonder if I should let them be able to get two or more successes in a KH turn or just handle it like a synergy bonus to one roll?
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TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
November 12, 2014 - 8:44pm
I'd probaly go the synergy bonus route as that is more inline with the standard rule system (i.e. engineering skill can be added togther to increase chance of success).
Ad Astra Per Ardua!
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Abub's picture
Abub
November 12, 2014 - 9:52pm
yeah probably.
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Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
November 12, 2014 - 10:14pm
Abub wrote:
I had not considered using DCR alongside engineering or even multiple engineers working the same problem. 

Check the skill sections of the KH Campaign Manual.

Repair roll equals DCR plus (10 X engineer level). A ship carrying more than one engineer can add the additional bonuses as well as splitting the labor over more than one job. Only the ship's DCR can be divided between repairs, but if you have more than one working on the same thing the whole enchilada can be used.

Hence, if your assault scout (DCR:50) has a pair of lv-2 engineers on board, you have a 90% chance to fix one system on a repair roll or 45 between two system attempts (or any other division of the ship's DCR in lieu of the 20% bonus from each engineer...you can have 30 points of the DCR applied to one task and 20 to the other or any combination totalling 50 prior to adding the worker bonuses )to each task). 

Like I said, you have plenty of time using canon rules. I'd go with the 90 and make a second repair roll on the next repair turn while the enemy ship is busy closing with your no longer disabled ship.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website